NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-07-2020, 02:12 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default T206 Black vs Brown Lenox

Here is a comparison of the rare Black Lenox vs the super-duper rare Brown Lenox. Anyone else have a black and brown combo?

Anyone know the theory on why there are browns, why they were distributed in packs, whether all blacks should conceivably have at least one brown counterpart out there, why some players seem to have a decent amount of Browns (McQuillan - like 4-5) and others have one (or none)?

What do we know about the elusive Brown Lenox?

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 08-07-2020 at 04:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-07-2020, 03:38 PM
Sean's Avatar
Sean Sean is offline
Sean Costello
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Woodland, California
Posts: 3,814
Default

I have a Merkle Black and Brown.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-07-2020, 03:44 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,517
Default

Would also love to hear more theories about Brown Lenox. (Calling Ted Z).

(Ryan, we know of 3 confirmed McQuillans, right? You think there's 4 or 5?)

Here's mine...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lenox.jpg (72.3 KB, 685 views)

Last edited by MVSNYC; 08-07-2020 at 03:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-07-2020, 04:10 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default

Sean, lets see pics of the Brown and Black Merkle (we know there are two of the Brown Merkle)

PSA has 3 - my 1.5, your A, and the A that sold last night (Hi Jeff, welcome to the club). SGC pop report shows 2 -- both A's. Is it possible that both of SGC's A's have been crossed to PSA, sure, and certainly 1. But maybe not. So the pop reports show 5. Also, there are 3 McQuillans. I dont know of any other player with more than 2 known examples, so I figure there could be 4+
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-07-2020, 04:57 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,005
Default

I used to own a Chase Trophy Brown, very low grade, not sure if it's the same one as Jeff has.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-07-2020, 05:22 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,517
Default

Ryan, did you mean you think McQuillan is 4/5, or 3? Your reply confused me a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-07-2020, 05:30 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default

The combined pop report of PSA and SGC shows 5 total. That does NOT mean there are 5 out there -- either company could have mislabeled one or someone could have crossed an SGC to a PSA, or vice versa. But the combined pop report shows 5.

I have seen 3 - yours, mine and the one last night (and yes, yours is an SGC), which means there may be at least two more A's out there, one PSA and one SGC.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-07-2020, 06:11 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,517
Default

Gotcha. Clear now!

Let’s see more Brown Lenox’s in this thread!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-07-2020, 06:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Brown LENOX cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Would also love to hear more theories about Brown Lenox. (Calling Ted Z).

(Ryan, we know of 3 confirmed McQuillans, right? You think there's 4 or 5?)

Here's mine...
OK Mike, here goes my theories on the Brown LENOX cards......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)




350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)



Now, for the connection between the T80 cards and the T206 Brown LENOX cards......





So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.

Incidentally, we have documented evidence from American Lithographic's records instructing Factory #30 (NYC) to insert a T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same
pack of LENOX Cigarettes. How do you like that ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-08-2020 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Added Crawford to confirmed list.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-07-2020, 07:30 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,517
Default

Hi Ted, very cool theory, and I'm sure very likely the case!

One comment- the Cairo Monopol ink doesn't look very brown; almost black actually. Is it just that scan? Is it more brown in real life?

Thanks!

Last edited by MVSNYC; 08-07-2020 at 07:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-07-2020, 07:41 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default

The brown Lenox ink is darker than brown old mill and brown Hindu (I think the same ink), I think similar to the T80 Lenox and Cairo Monopol
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4FAE6DE5-A381-46C2-B6B1-BEE2C2B1EC23.jpg (9.7 KB, 612 views)
File Type: jpg 6CA3DA18-67E0-4783-846D-133228B630BF.jpg (9.6 KB, 607 views)
File Type: jpg B035F695-D826-44BD-AC55-18A574BAC6C9.jpg (6.9 KB, 613 views)
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-07-2020, 07:51 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

I have been keeping track of and doing research on the Brown Lenox
for several years now. I started a couple of threads on them but no one replied in any of them here's one from 5 years ago
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=Lenox

There are four McQillans that I know of

The one that sold last night in Heritage was previously in an SGC holder
McQuillan 2.jpg
McQuillan 2b.jpg

this is the one Ryan has now
McQuillan 1.jpg

This is the one Michael has now
Mcquillan SGC A.jpg
and this is the fourth one
McQuillan 4.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 08-07-2020 at 07:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-07-2020, 08:05 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,517
Default

Hi Patrick, really cool research and scans, thanks for posting.

Last edited by MVSNYC; 08-07-2020 at 08:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-07-2020, 08:57 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Hi Ted, very cool theory, and I'm sure very likely the case!

One comment- the Cairo Monopol ink doesn't look very brown; almost black actually. Is it just that scan? Is it more brown in real life?

Thanks!
Mike




I have had T80 Cairo Monopol cards with a lighter Brown appearance than the one I have in this scan.
However, the other factor to consider is the "boldness" of the lettering of the "Cairo Monopol" brand name,
which has the effect of making it look darker. Whereas the thinner lettering of......
"CIGARETTES
MILITARY
SERIES
ASSORTED SUBJECTS
"......appears as a lighter brown script similar to the narrower T206 brown LENOX lettering.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-08-2020 at 08:45 PM. Reason: Added scan.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:51 PM
Jobu's Avatar
Jobu Jobu is offline
Bry@n
member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 3,722
Default

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Crawford Lenox a.jpg (80.2 KB, 594 views)
File Type: jpg Crawford Lenox b.jpg (80.2 KB, 593 views)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-08-2020, 06:16 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobu View Post
This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.
Hi Bryan

The grader is colored-blind"....you and I are not

It is definitely a Brown LENOX. These LENOX backs vary in their shades of brown.

I have added Crawford (bat) to my confirmed list.

Thanks for posting this card.


350/460 series subjects confirmed with Brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)


T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)




TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-08-2020 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-08-2020, 08:10 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default T206 Brown LENOX cards

Reprising the Brown LENOX cards from the T206 460-only series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with Brown LENOX backs.......




Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

According to my theory, there are 3 more subjects from the 460-only series,
which I expect will eventually be found with Brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)

Schaefer (Washington)

Seymour (portrait)


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-08-2020, 09:04 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default Beautiful cards

Great thread!!!

brown Old Mill are scraps , brown Lenox are factory cut!!!

would love to see an example of a brown Lenox scrap! but they might have not made it to that pile



yes....seems very much to be the case.....printer always had an "interim" set up before different issues in AL New York:

Bitters Lash, Oakes Tobbacco, T 68 Men of History, and i'm sure many others...


being a scrap collector, they are the "missing links" that usually correlate issues on con current printing...

brown lenox were "subtle" brown, the printer probably just snuck them through....BOM are more obvious and were probably "scrapped"

Ted....check out my multi strike thread.....has some scrap tolstoi multi strike and other puzzle pieces....

T - 68 Men/History/


looks like has the same run on the grouping of Devore, McGraw, Devore, Tannehill....etc

just LIKE THE YELLOW BROWN SCRAPS! they are correlated to Broadleaf 460 printing

must have been "super printed" sheets of those


ps

I never owned a brown Lenox , but might in the future
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-08-2020, 09:05 AM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default ps Jamie!!!

you have a brown Lenox Cobb right??
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-08-2020, 09:40 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
ps Jamie.... you have a brown Lenox Cobb right??
Hey Johnny

Jamie does not have (or will ever find) a Red Cobb with a brown LENOX back.

As you know, the Red Cobb is not in Group B of the 350/460 series cards which were printed with brown LENOX backs.

The Red Cobb is in Group A of the 350/460 series cards.

Recall (some years back), you posted a scan of the 35 - T206's that are in Group A (yellow/brown scrap).

Take care, my friend


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-08-2020 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-08-2020, 11:33 AM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
OK Mike, here goes my theories on the Brown LENOX cards......


The timeline of the printing of these Group B subjects with AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT backs was Jan - Feb 1911. This exact timeline coincides with the printing
of the T80 (Military Men) cards. Shown below, the T80 cards were printed with CAIRO MONOPOL, LENOX, OLD MILL, TOLSTOI, and UZIT backs.

To date, 25 brown LENOX cards are confirmed. If my theory proves true, I predict that 11 (or 12) more T206 cards may eventually be discovered with the brown LENOX backs.
Exactly 19 subjects of the 25 brown LENOX cards are from the 350/460 series, and 6 subjects are from the 460-only series......


T206 350/460 series....Group B (Brown LENOX candidates)




350/460 series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)
Jordan (bat)
Lajoie (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Overall (yellow sky)
Pfeister (throwing)
F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Willetts
Willis (bat)

The 6 brown LENOX cards from the 460-only series are from the same group of 9 subjects that are the only confirmed PIEDMONT 460 Factory #42 cards in this series.

460-only series subjects confirmed with brown LENOX backs

Chase (trophy)
Latham
Marquard (pitching)
Merkle (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

I expect these 3 subjects from the 460-only series will eventually be found with brown LENOX backs......

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)



Now, for the connection between the T80 cards and the T206 Brown LENOX cards......





So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.
Instead of QA discarding these brown LENOX cards, the sheets were factory-cut, and these brown LENOX cards were shipped along with the black LENOX cards to Factory #30.
And, inserted into LENOX cigarette packs.

Incidentally, we have documented evidence from American Lithographic's records instructing Factory #30 (NYC) to insert a T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same
pack of LENOX Cigarettes. How do you like that ?


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Hey Ted,

According to the Lenox ledger page the T80's and T206's were not inserted
in packs together in the Lenox brands.

Tom posted a fantastic pdf file of the journal in this thread
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=282997

The Lenox page says they "discontinued packing military pictures 10/14/10
and began packing baseball pictures Oct.15/10 1 to each box of 10"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-08-2020, 01:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hey Ted,

According to the Lenox ledger page the T80's and T206's were not inserted
in packs together in the Lenox brands.

Tom posted a fantastic pdf file of the journal in this thread
https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=282997

The Lenox page says they "discontinued packing military pictures 10/14/10
and began packing baseball pictures Oct.15/10 1 to each box of 10"
Hey Pat

For starters, check-out this Net54 post from Mar 2009. There are more confirmations (throughout Net54) regarding T80's paired with T206's during the timeline of Jan-Feb 1911.
One of these other ATC ledgers instruct Factory #30 to pair T80's and T206's in LENOX cigarette packs. I don't have the time, currently, to search into this stuff.

You are good at researching, why don't you find them and post them if you will, so we will see which of us is correct on this matter ?


Net54 post March 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archive View Post
Posted By: Jeff S.

These letters were auctioned through Mastronet back on Apr. 11th, 2002 - basically notifying the recipient that American Tobacco was discontinuing the production of Tolstoi and Uzit T206's, and beginning to insert a "Military series". Interesting that the letters mention simultaneous insertion of both a baseball and military picture in each package of cigarettes (until the baseball series ran out I assume). Any idea what the final price was for these pieces? - I couldn't find anything through the Mastro back door.

PS - apologies for using an antiquated scanner...

T206.jpg


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-08-2020, 01:28 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

Hey Ted,

I think you're correct that T206's and T80's were inserted together in
some brands but according to the ledger page Lenox wasn't one of them.

What I quoted was from the Lenox page here it is
Attached Images
File Type: jpg img883.jpg (77.2 KB, 525 views)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-08-2020, 02:19 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Patrick

We have a problem here comparing "apples vs oranges". At first, I was puzzled by the timeline you noted (10/14/1910). Now, I know why.

Your scan shows a T79 card (white-bordered) Military Series. The T80 Military Series (gold-bordered) which I am referring to, was printed
and issued at the beginning of 1911.

And, that timeline coincides with the tail-end of the T206 production, which included AMERICAN BEAUTY 460, LENOX, and UZIT cards.

When I get a chance, I will try to find the ATC record(s) which details my contention regarding the T80 cards paired with T206 cards.






TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-08-2020, 02:56 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default

Lets see some Lenox!

Frank Chance is my only other black lenox (besides Marquard).

But I do have some browns... Maybe its the scans, but the brown seems to come in different shades; I will have to pull them and look at them in hand/person when I get back to Maryland.

Ted/Pat - you guys think the ink-shade differs from back to back?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg T206 Chance Yellow Portrait, Lenox - Front.jpg (37.0 KB, 506 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Chance Yellow Portrait, Lenox - Back.jpg (34.3 KB, 506 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Jennings, One Hand, Brown Lenox - Front.jpg (77.7 KB, 509 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Jennings, One Hand, Brown Lenox - Back.jpg (74.5 KB, 507 views)
File Type: jpg T206 McQuillan with Bat, Brown Lenox - Front.jpg (39.5 KB, 501 views)
File Type: jpg T206 McQillan with bat, Brown lenox, Back.jpg (37.8 KB, 505 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Merkle Throwing, Brown Lenox - Front.jpg (42.5 KB, 503 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Merkle Throwing, Brown Lenox - Back.jpg (40.2 KB, 500 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Smith Chi & Boston, Brown Lenox - Front.jpg (43.7 KB, 504 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Smith Chi & Boston, Brown Lenox - Back.jpg (43.6 KB, 510 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Wiltse, Brown Lenox- Front.jpg (42.5 KB, 497 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Wiltse, Brown Lenox - Back.jpg (42.6 KB, 494 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Lake No Ball in Hand, Brown Lenox - Front.jpg (77.6 KB, 502 views)
File Type: jpg T206 Lake No Ball in Hand, Brown Lenox - Back.jpg (78.4 KB, 510 views)

Last edited by Rhotchkiss; 08-08-2020 at 02:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-08-2020, 03:32 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Lets see some Lenox!

Frank Chance is my only other black lenox (besides Marquard).

But I do have some browns... Maybe its the scans, but the brown seems to come in different shades; I will have to pull them and look at them in hand/person when I get back to Maryland.

Ted/Pat - you guys think the ink-shade differs from back to back?
Ryan

The shade of Brown ink does somewhat vary from Brown LENOX card to card. This variance in ink color is typical in printing practice when printers have to switch to another ink color
from a prior press run to a new one. Such as my hypothesis in my previous post in this thread......

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
So, here is my hypothesis: The printer at American Lithographic failed to switch from the brown ink after press runs of T80 CAIRO MONOPOL backs to black ink prior to starting
a press run of T206 LENOX backs. Apparently, this mistake was caught quickly, which would explain why very few T206 brown LENOX examples exist.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-08-2020, 09:04 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Ryan

I don't have any brown LENOX cards. And, I don' have many black LENOX cards.

My very first LENOX card is this Chance....which I acquired at the Cooperstown Show in the 1980's for a mere $15.

.



.



.




And, here is my favorite T206 guy with a very rare LENOX card of him. I traded it recently to Chris Browne for a tough Red HINDU card.

.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-08-2020, 09:55 PM
MVSNYC MVSNYC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,517
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Mike




I have had T80 Cairo Monopol cards with a lighter Brown appearance than the one I have in this scan.
However, the other factor to consider is the "boldness" of the lettering of the "Cairo Monopol" brand name,
which has the effect of making it look darker. Whereas the thinner lettering of......
"CIGARETTES
MILITARY
SERIES
ASSORTED SUBJECTS
"......appears as a lighter brown script similar to the narrower T206 brown LENOX lettering.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Ted, I see what you mean, thanks!

Very cool thread!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:39 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default Ted

Yes! the yellow browns would fall under that grouping correct....

T206RESOURCE lists red cobb brown lenox as a possible, but not confirmed
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 08-10-2020, 02:26 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
Ted
Yes! the yellow browns would fall under that grouping correct....

T206RESOURCE lists red cobb brown lenox as a possible, but not confirmed

Johnny, ole buddy

Next time check-out my T206 REFERENCE thread (posts #8 and 171) and you will get the true scoop.

T206resource is mis-leading T206 collectors by stating a red Cobb is possible with a brown LENOX back.

I'm certain that it does not exist, that I will offer anyone one of these crisp $100 who finds an authentic
brown LENOX red Cobb.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 08-11-2020, 09:39 AM
Leon's Avatar
Leon Leon is online now
Leon
peasant/forum owner
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: near Dallas
Posts: 34,202
Default

I have the hardest time distinguishing between black and brown. But then again I am not very brown-green color adept, according to tests I have taken. I need to stick to other backs...
Cool cards in the thread!
__________________
Leon Luckey
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:02 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default Ted!!

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

now that's putting your money where your mouth is!!!!

hahahaha

well, we have yet to see one....right now we have a "Yetti"
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-11-2020, 01:03 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,294
Default Leon

i'm like you!

brown lenox is 10 X harder to distinguish than brown old mill
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-11-2020, 02:34 PM
Sean's Avatar
Sean Sean is offline
Sean Costello
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Woodland, California
Posts: 3,814
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvster View Post
i'm like you!

brown lenox is 10 X harder to distinguish than brown old mill
+1
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-11-2020, 03:37 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

There is a bigger variance in the Brown with the Lenox vs the Brown Old Mills
from card to card

Lenox Group - Copy - Copy.jpg

But it's still like night and day if you put a Brown Lenox next to a Black Lenox

Black Lenox - Copy.jpg

or even a Cairo Monopol

Cairo Monopol.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-11-2020, 05:28 PM
Marslife's Avatar
Marslife Marslife is offline
Cliff
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 640
Default Jordan (Bat)

Here's half a brown back :-)

DSCF0770.jpg

DSCF0771.jpg

DSCF0772.jpg
__________________
T201 Master Set - COMPLETE !!!
F30 (50/50) F649 (50/50)
"Mecca - Perfect Satisfaction"
T206 Back Set - 37/38
T227 Series of Champions Master Set 45/48
1948 Bowman - Baseball & Football (upgrading)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-11-2020, 06:05 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post

or even a Cairo Monopol

Attachment 413452
^^^^^^^^^^^
^
Well, well what do you know....here we have a "black" CAIRO MONOPOL back ! This T80 image has to be the converse printing error of a brown LENOX (and, just as rare).
Or, this scan was simply photo-shopped to appear "blackish".



T80's CAIRO MONOPOL backs were printed with varying shades of BROWN ink....such as this example.....





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-11-2020 at 06:34 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-11-2020, 06:42 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

It's not photo-shopped Ted

https://net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=236800

https://www.amazon.com/1909-Tobacco-.../dp/B00KVOZOZG
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-11-2020, 07:56 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Pat

Great, then it's back is "black". First one that I've seen. I have an assortment of about 60 cards of T80's with CAIRO MONOPOL (CM), LENOX, TOLSTOI, UZIT, and Blank-backs.
My 50-card set is near complete set.

In an inverse way, your "black" back CM card supports my theory which I noted in post #10 in this thread (i.e., the brown LENOX T206's are the result of printer's mistaken ink
application on a press run of T206 LENOX cards. And why brown ink ? Because the prior press run was CM cards. So, your CM card with the "black" is the result of vice-versa.
The more significant factor that reinforces my theory is the fact that ONLY Group B subjects of the 350/460 series have been found with the brown LENOX backs.

Printer's errors such as this have also resulted in other T206 backs having the wrong color.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-12-2020, 09:04 AM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

Great, then it's back is "black". First one that I've seen. I have an assortment of about 60 cards of T80's with CAIRO MONOPOL (CM), LENOX, TOLSTOI, UZIT, and Blank-backs.
My 50-card set is near complete set.

In an inverse way, your "black" back CM card supports my theory which I noted in post #10 in this thread (i.e., the brown LENOX T206's are the result of printer's mistaken ink
application on a press run of T206 LENOX cards. And why brown ink ? Because the prior press run was CM cards. So, your CM card with the "black" is the result of vice-versa.
The more significant factor that reinforces my theory is the fact that ONLY Group B subjects of the 350/460 series have been found with the brown LENOX backs.

Printer's errors such as this have also resulted in other T206 backs having the wrong color.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Hey Ted,
I was posting to show how the Brown Lenox stands out when compared to the Black Lenox and the Cairo Monopol it had nothing to do with your
theory. As a matter of fact your group theory mirrors what I posted 5 years ago with the exception of Ames who is to use Scot Readers phrase is a rule breaker.

I posted this thread 5 years ago

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=Lenox

It didn't receive a response but I brought it up again in one of your threads

img884.jpg

Your response was it was worth tracking and coincidentally
a few months later you started your Brown Lenox theory
that with the exception of Ames mirrored what I posted.

Last edited by Pat R; 08-12-2020 at 09:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 08-12-2020, 01:14 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Hey Ted,
I was posting to show how the Brown Lenox stands out when compared to the Black Lenox and the Cairo Monopol it had nothing to do with your
theory.

As a matter of fact your group theory mirrors what I posted 5 years ago with the exception of Ames who is to use Scot Readers phrase is a rule breaker.

I posted this thread 5 years ago

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...ighlight=Lenox

It didn't receive a response but I brought it up again in one of your threads

Attachment 413518

Your response was it was worth tracking and coincidentally
a few months later you started your Brown Lenox theory
that with the exception of Ames mirrored what I posted.

Pat

Do we have to "re-hash" all this stuff all over again ?

First of all, I presented my "Mutually-Exclusive" theory (Group A and Group B) regarding the 350/460 series back in 2009. And, at that time I noted that Ames (hands over head)
was in the Group B. Ames did not fit the pattern; therefore, I had serious doubts about it. I did some "detective" work and tracked down the Net54 member, who posted that the
Ames was "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back (which was posted in Bill Brown's Super Set back in 2006). This fellow stated that his post in the Super Set regarding
Ames was a mistake.

So, I REMOVED Ames from my Group B list, and transferred him into the Group A list.

What does it take to convince you that this AMES does not exist with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back or a UZIT back (as T206resource incorrectly claims) ?

We have "hashed" this over and over again in the past.....and, I'm tired of dealing with your repeated "crap" on this matter !

How's about, I offer you these FIVE CRISP $100 BILLS if you can find an AUTHENTIC Ames (hands over head ) card with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back, or a UZIT back.

Furthermore, this offer goes to anyone else here on this forum.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 08-12-2020, 04:09 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

Do we have to "re-hash" all this stuff all over again ?

First of all, I presented my "Mutually-Exclusive" theory (Group A and Group B) regarding the 350/460 series back in 2009. And, at that time I noted that Ames (hands over head)
was in the Group B. Ames did not fit the pattern; therefore, I had serious doubts about it. I did some "detective" work and tracked down the Net54 member, who posted that the
Ames was "confirmed" with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back (which was posted in Bill Brown's Super Set back in 2006). This fellow stated that his post in the Super Set regarding
Ames was a mistake.

So, I REMOVED Ames from my Group B list, and transferred him into the Group A list.

What does it take to convince you that this AMES does not exist with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back or a UZIT back (as T206resource incorrectly claims) ?

We have "hashed" this over and over again in the past.....and, I'm tired of dealing with your repeated "crap" on this matter !

How's about, I offer you these FIVE CRISP $100 BILLS if you can find an AUTHENTIC Ames (hands over head ) card with an AMERICAN BEAUTY 46O back, or a UZIT back.

Furthermore, this offer goes to anyone else here on this forum.





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, The Ames AB460 and Uzit has nothing to do with what I posted but
since you posted a challenge can I use you as a reference for the $500?

img895.jpg
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 08-12-2020, 04:28 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Pat

What the hell don't you understand. ! ?

I explained all that, and how I talked with the Net54 member, who said it was a mistake when he posted Ames in the Super Set.

Your derangement syndrome against me (over these past 4 years) has blinded you to grasp what is clearly written. Go back and read what I posted, and let it sink in to your mind.

And, quit this $H**T.

Ted
.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 08-12-2020, 05:33 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 3,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

What the hell don't you understand. ! ?

I explained all that, and how I talked with the Net54 member, who said it was a mistake when he posted Ames in the Super Set.

Your derangement syndrome against me (over these past 4 years) has blinded you to grasp what is clearly written. Go back and read what I posted, and let it sink in to your mind.

And, quit this $H**T.

Ted
.
I don't know Ted what I see clearly written is you saying you have an
Ames American Beauty 460 in the 70 card set you completed.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 08-12-2020, 06:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Apparently, you are having a lapse of recall. Several years ago in one of your "gotcha Ted" posts, we discussed that exact list from 2009. And, I explained to you that the Baker
and Elberfeld had partial paper loss on their backs which obscured whether they were 350 or 460 cards. Obviously, they were AB 350 cards. I assumed otherwise....my bad.
And, I told you that I did not have Ames,. It was a mistaken typo on that list.

I'd like to think that you have forgotten that conversation, and now you have gone to the trouble to play this "gotcha Ted" game.

On the other hand, if you do recall our conversation on this subject from several years ago, and you are trying to instigate it again....then, sir you have a serious problem.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 08-12-2020, 07:13 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default

So much for discussions about Lenox.....
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 08-12-2020, 07:49 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 10,053
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Here is a comparison of the rare Black Lenox vs the super-duper rare Brown Lenox. Anyone else have a black and brown combo?

Anyone know the theory on why there are browns, why they were distributed in packs, whether all blacks should conceivably have at least one brown counterpart out there, why some players seem to have a decent amount of Browns (McQuillan - like 4-5) and others have one (or none)?

What do we know about the elusive Brown Lenox?

Ryan

I'm sorry about this....but, as Billy Joel sang "I Didn't Start This Fire".

I simply responded to your 1st post here with my theory on how brown LENOX cards could have been printed, and which T206 subjects can (or will be) found with brown LENOX backs.

And BAM ! "Mr. Negativism" had to resort to his usual B-S tactics. He's done this numerous times in the past on other Threads that I have posted on.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Last edited by tedzan; 08-12-2020 at 07:58 PM. Reason: Added information.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 08-12-2020, 10:45 PM
t206fanatic's Avatar
t206fanatic t206fanatic is offline
Jeff Willi@ms
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 297
Default

Have very much enjoyed the discussion, will contribute the only lenox i have currently, Mr Harry Howell
Attached Images
File Type: jpg howell waist f046.jpg (76.4 KB, 304 views)
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 08-13-2020, 12:22 AM
Lorewalker's Avatar
Lorewalker Lorewalker is offline
Chase
Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 1,319
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
So much for discussions about Lenox.....
+1

I do not do 06s but do follow many of the threads more out of fascination about how complex the set is and the passion 06 collectors have for the issue but I have to say that I have seen Ted go bonkers on people for taking his thread OT but here he seems to be ok with hijacking this one. That is sorta disappointing.
__________________
( h @ $ e A n + l e y
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 08-13-2020, 06:26 AM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 4,256
Default

Ted, thanks for the post, and Patrick thank you for the email. I have born (online) witness to several t206 dust-ups between you two. The upside to them is the passion - in a world so polarized by politics and social issues, I love that people argue about t206 print runs!! That said, the banter does tend to hijack the threads, and I had to point that out. All good.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
T206 folks, lets see some Lenox Beauties, Black and Brown Welcome !! Gradedcardman Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 35 12-01-2016 10:06 AM
FYI....T206 LENOX (Black & Brown) confirmed lists tedzan Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 43 11-17-2016 08:25 AM
Brown vs. black Lenox trdcrdkid Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 17 04-09-2015 04:07 PM
Black Lenox, brown Lenox Theoldprofessor Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions 8 11-30-2009 06:30 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:23 AM.


ebay GSB