Rebacked T206's....heck NO....perhaps, they are Re-Fronted DRUM, HINDU cards ?

[tedzan]

Most in the hobby call these altered T206's...."re-backed". I choose to call them "re-fronted" DRUM's, red HINDU's, LENOX's, etc., etc.

Anyhow, before you dismiss my re-fronted claim, consider the following. These fake T206's were not simply made by laminating a care-
fully sliced Cobb front with a carefully sliced DRUM common, and by applying a thin layer of glue (sandwich style) in order to produce a
rare front/back combo. If this were so, these fakes would have easily been detected by any of the Grading Co's. However, as we know,
many of these altered T206's were graded 10 years ago by PSA and SGC.

I offer the following as a possible scenario for my "re-front" argument. Check-out the following scans....the lower part of the Donlin card
shows the start of image disintegration, typical of white-bordered cards that have been affected by adverse conditions. I have seen this
ink-flaking effect moreso on E-cards (E98, etc.) than T206's. In any event, the Piedmont 350 card (center) was a T206 Peaches Graham.
It had extensive image disintegration. I carefully scraped the ink flakes off it, resulting in a "Blank Front" T206 (seen in the right scan).

I tell you this in order that you can appreciate the thin-film like laminate that constitutes the front image of most of the white-bordered
cards. So my contention is, that a professional paper restorer can remove (or reproduce) the front of a T206 and very precisely applique
this paper-thin image onto a carefully prepared Blank Front. There are adhering mediums that are virtually undetectable in this process.




Now, we have had some debates on the authenticity of the (one & only) T206 red Cobb with the red HINDU back. If the above scenario,
as I have described here, has any merit, it could explain why this card was undetected by the graders. A scan of this Cobb card is found
in the following thread in Post #14......
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ight=Hindu%27s

The following subtle flaws on this Cobb may be indicative of a re-fronted Red Cobb laminate onto a red HINDU card's (blank) front........

(1) There is a rough line, that ever so slightly descends across (and just below) the top border, that looks like a possible laminate edge.

(2) A suspicious vertical line on the top white border (1/6 in from the left). In that location, it cannot be a "proof" hash-mark. What is it ?


Furthermore, if this re-front scenario is valid, it explains why only white-bordered cards are altered. The gold-bordered cards (T205's, etc.)
would be virtually impossible to alter....using this technique.


Please feel free to post your comments on any aspects of this thread ?


TED Z

[steve B]

Seems plausible to me.

In the late 70's there was a "craft" that involved making transparencies from printed matter. A bit of scotch tape or better yet packing tape, a bowl of water and a bit of rubbing to remove the paper and the transparency was done and ready to frame as a suncatcher. I did a couple 79 Topps commons and it was pretty easy.

Substitute some better plastic film, and an adhesive that can be easily removed from the ink after it's been readhered to a new card and it's pretty likely the process.

Prepping the card to provide a new back looks a bit tougher. The scraped surface would be obvious because it's not smooth. But I'm betting some simple chemicals would do the trick, leaving the smooth white cardboard surface.

Steve B

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by steve B

Seems plausible to me.

In the late 70's there was a "craft" that involved making transparencies from printed matter. A bit of scotch tape or better yet packing tape, a bowl of water and a bit of rubbing to remove the paper and the transparency was done and ready to frame as a suncatcher. I did a couple 79 Topps commons and it was pretty easy.

Substitute some better plastic film, and an adhesive that can be easily removed from the ink after it's been readhered to a new card and it's pretty likely the process.

Prepping the card to provide a new back looks a bit tougher. The scraped surface would be obvious because it's not smooth. But I'm betting some simple chemicals would do the trick, leaving the smooth white cardboard surface.

Steve B

That's extremely scary.

[cfc1909]

this may be too much information for certain people...
Don't want to take anything away fom your post but this is scary.

[onlychild]

Ted,

There is no debate necessary. You are absolutely correct, cards are refronted!

Not only t206's but 205's...or most other issues for that matter up until the 1980's. I believe I may have posted about the term some time back. Refronting should be the appropriate term used. I use rebacking on my website, since it is what most are familiar with. Here are a few examples of the ridiculously thin pics from my website:

http://www.alteredcards.com/gallery4.htm

The real trick is actually removing or lifting the entire picture. To complete it all takes so many steps it's almost crazy and requires a number of doctoring skills. Once done, it is virtually undetectable even by the most trained eye.

There are no seams to detect since there are no seams. Fractional picture layering on front, several surface wrinkles and/or tiny bumps when angled under a halogen are just a few things to look for.

Here is a finished product. A t205 pic lifted and placed on a t206 card that had the pic removed.



Ted....now armed with this info, you can go crazy with the accusations. This will be fun, since you now know it is not only plausible but probable and with merit.

A couple years back, I offered to take off work and train the "most senior" PSA graders on this and other alteration procedures at no cost. Joe refused and instead offered to let me take the grader test...oh well I tried.

*Side note to collectors - Please don't ask about any part of the procedure or send emails thinking I will tell anyone in secrecy. Ted, feel free to email questions, if it will help your cause.

Enjoy!

Kevin

[T206DK]

yes Ted, cards can be re-fronted. I have seen a card one of my collecting friends did for fun. It had an Art Fromme front and an Obak reverse. I have seen T206 cards carefully seperated front from back also, so it can be done. Glue formulations that can't be detected by graders are easy to come up with. sophisticated adhesives didn't hit the market until around WWII, so most "glues" were simple hide glues or plant based glues.

[T206DK]

that's amazing that Joe Orlando wouldn't let you teach the graders there. And you offered to do it gratis ! I don't understand that at all. you would think he would want his graders to be as knowledgeable as possible.

[tedzan]

I am really surprised that a T205 front can be removed intact. Thanks for posting the scan.

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?

Furthermore, does anyone really care ? ?


TED Z

[jp1216]

Kevin - wow that front/back combo (and picture) is scary. I hope the likes of SGC and PSA keep up with this stuff.
10 years from now - a book comes out - "How I took down Net54"... LOL
Author will write about selling/trading his 'authenticated' fakes to members to acquire the greatest collection.

[iggyman]

Ted,

I'm sure we all care. Most of us are passionate about our cards and to various degrees have some amount of money invested into this so-called hobby. We would like to assume that "all" card surgeons are terrible spellers and their forgeries can be easily spotted. But as your post suggest, that is not always the case. High-level fraud is rampant in our society (or any other society were $$$ and human beings are involved)......not much can be done about that. Our only defense is to question every new "find" and document the work of old-time collectors like yourself. Lets face the facts, this hobby relies way too much on the card graders at SGC/PSA. When in actuality, both companies are in the business of entombing cards as quickly as possible (they probably spend less then a minute authenticating a card). With that said, as collectors we have three choices, either leave the hobby, choose to be oblivious, or acquire knowledge. Hopefully, the majority choose option three.

Lovely Day...

[steve B]

The 205/206 is pretty impressive. I can guess at some of what would have to be done, but I won't. My earlier post was probably close enough.

And yes, it's pretty scary what a real restoration expert in any field can accomplish. There was an antique restoration place in Arlington Ma for a while that had some antiques in the window along with before pictures. How a vase went from a pile of shards and dust to looking like new was amazing.
The price was also amazing, but apparently the vase was worth it even restored. I think they marked the stuff as restored to avoid problems.

Any time the money gets above what the top quality fakery costs the fakes will be made. In any field.

The next step will be collecting the best ones. In stamps, there are some forgeries that sell for more than the real stamp.
http://www.glenstephens.com/snapril04.html

Steve B

[FUBAR]

Kevin

Your altered cards website is one of the best reads i've ever done with respect to cards. It is both incredibly information, yet amazingly scary! Everyone on this site should read ALL of his page.....


thank you for the information!


Jim

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by tedzan

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?
TED Z

Since the backs have their names, stats, and biographies on them I think it would be a bit hard to change fronts on T205s.

[onlychild]

I guess there can be re-fronted T205's (especially a Cobb, Johnson, or a Matty); however,
do we know all the front/back combos that exist in this set....as we do with the T206's ?

Furthermore, does anyone really care ? ?

Ted, I'm just trying to help prove your theory. Entire pictures can be removed and cards can be refronted...they shouldn't be considered rebacked. The T205/T206 combo was made just to show it can done.

Here is a picture removed in one piece from a beater T206 I made for you last night, with pics taken from the back side. It had some wrinkles that broke through the surface, so naturally those pieces would be split when lifted.

Imagine this is a Cobb and I removed another the pic from a Red Hindu that had severe front damage. If done properly, the two can be joined without detection. Perhaps it could be spotted by a very intricate inspection (up to an hour in some cases) but what grading company would spend that kind of time? With the right two cards I imagine any combo is possible.

Kevin

[tedzan]

A momentary lapse on my behalf....for nobody in their sane mind would alter a T205 PIEDMONT card
of Matty to re-front another card of Matty with a DRUM card of Matty (if such a f/b combo exists).

This certainly tells us why we don't see any T205's being altered like T206's are.

Thanks for the sanity check.

TED Z

[teetwoohsix]

It's obvious by looking at Kevin's examples that these type of alterations can and have been done,but I'm not too convinced that just anyone could pull off a "re-fronting" job that would fool all graders and collectors.There is no way,unless you are a pro like Kevin,that you could "build" an example that could fool everyone,IMO.I would guess there may be a handful of people who could do an "undetectable" job-my point is that I do not think it's as easy to do as it sounds,that's all.

I admit,it is scary-but I would be a little more leary if I were buying these ultra rare,one of a few known,high dollar,bionic back cards........

Clayton

[barrysloate]

It may not be easy, but that wouldn't stop somebody from learning the skills. It's not easy to be a doctor, but people still go to medical school and ultimately practice medicine.

There is so much money to be made altering baseball cards that you can be sure many people are doing it. And while I agree not all these concoctions will get past graders, enough will. If only 25% of all altered cards got slabbed it would still be a very lucrative business.

[teetwoohsix]

Great point Barry-agreed.

I was dumbfounded at an earlier post where Kevin said he offered to show PSA graders a few "tips",free of charge,and was declined!!

Clayton

[T206DK]

I think these types of alterations can be done by anyone with the time and materials. I am going to try to do my own re-fronting and see how it turns out.

[onlychild]

There is no way,unless you are a pro like Kevin,that you could "build" an example that could fool everyone,IMO.

HA! I'm the village idiot, so I imagine there are plenty more out there that can do this. I just happened to stumble upon the technique by accident while doing some experiments that many would consider unthinkable.

I've always been under the impression that cards are just a single piece of cardboard with ink...and if it was done once it could be done again.

I was dumbfounded at an earlier post where Kevin said he offered to show PSA graders a few "tips",free of charge,and was declined!!

Yep, it was free and I only live about 30 miles away. I wasn't planning on showing them tips, I was going to give them step by step instructions along with the formulas and how to's. Then they would know exactly what to look for, since it's not always black and white. Was also going show them security concerns with their flips, which as predicted, is now a big problem.

[FUBAR]

Re-fronting, re-backing, how about re-valuating.. its the ole six of one, half a dozen of the other ... doesn't matter what you call it....

why would someone do this?? well Kevin claims it takes 8 hours to do this properly... anyone else here make 100k in 8 hours??? or even 1 k in eight hours?? there is your answer!

[teetwoohsix]

The sad part,other than these cards being created to decieve people,is that two great cards (HOF'er front + rare,uncommon back) are being destoyed to make one fake franken-card.............

[T206DK]

We'll see how my attempts turn out. I've already done the color removal experiments that Kevin has tried on his website and they have worked to varying degrees. I did that about 4 -5 years ago just out of curiousity. I don't consider myself a card doctor at all, but I do have some experience in restoring historical documents and things of that nature. I have just transferred the knowledge to baseball cards.
the cards I use would not be considered keepers by most, and I've never tried to sneak anything by a grading company or sell to anyone.

[tedzan]

Dave, regarding your......
"I think these types of alterations can be done by anyone with the time and materials. I am going to try to do
my own re-fronting and see how it turns out."

Here's my suggestion to you....re-front a UZIT back with a Red Cobb....it's an impossible F/B combo, but does
that really matter anymore ?


Anyhow, here's my example......





..Hey guys, we need a laugh and I thought this card might evoke it....after all, Cobb is quoted as saying....

"Baseball was like War"..


TED Z

[T206Collector]

...anyone has to worry about are the ones that can be detected.

While even the best forgeries have the propensity to harm the hobby in a variety of ways, threads like this, which purport to (and do) educate, have their own damaging effect on the hobby in that they have the ability to disgust collectors so much that they might choose a different hobby.

What's worse -- a truly undetectable forgery; or a thread about how the cards we currently own might not be what we think they are?

Just something worth thinking about. If you could push a button and 50% of the cards in your collection would suddenly be worthless while the other 50% of the cards would be 100% guaranteed unaltered, would you push it?

[T206Collector]

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

[onlychild]

We'll see how my attempts turn out. I've already done the color removal experiments that Kevin has tried on his website and they have worked to varying degrees. I did that about 4 -5 years ago just out of curiousity. I don't consider myself a card doctor at all, but I do have some experience in restoring historical documents and things of that nature. I have just transferred the knowledge to baseball cards.

Awesome, the more we learn the better.

As for Ted's idea...yikes that would expensive to attempt . How about a common with an upside down back? It's all relevant right?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

I agree completely. The second one is a great 30; I mean, could you find a better Plank image on a 2?

[T206DK]

I think it's natural to want to figure something out after you've seen or heard of another person trying it. Not everyone does it, but some do. I think the thing that is disturbing to me as a collector is the fact that 3rd party graders may have graded a lot of altered cards. Now those 3rd party graded cards are selling for well more than their ungraded counterparts are.
The newbies that may read threads like this may be turned off, but I bet it's the flipper/investor/speculators that are really troubled when they see pics like Kevin's and read info about how these alterations are done. If a few of them are turned off of cards and go delve into coins or something else I could care less. I think the investor /speculators have ruined some of the fun of collecting. Especially for guys who can't shell out thousands of dollars every week for cards.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by T206DK

I bet it's the flipper/investor/speculators that are really troubled when they see pics like Kevin's and read info about how these alterations are done. If a few of them are turned off of cards and go delve into coins or something else I could care less.

I hadn't thought of it that way! And if we can turn off enough of these folks, we might get a more reasonably priced hobby.

[iggyman]

[quote=t206collector;803201
while even the best forgeries have the propensity to harm the hobby in a variety of ways, threads like this, which purport to (and do) educate, have their own damaging effect on the hobby in that they have the ability to disgust collectors so much that they might choose a different hobby.

What's worse -- a truly undetectable forgery; or a thread about how the cards we currently own might not be what we think they are?[/quote]


monkees2.jpg

[T206Collector]

I'm not preaching ignorance. I just think it is ironic that a thread like this can scare collectors as much as a forgery itself.

Hopefully through better education we can eradicate some of these forgeries. The unfortunate truth is that better education will also better educate criminals and scare collectors. And, no matter what we do, there will always be some alterations that will remain undetectable forever.

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

And, no matter what we do, there will always be some alterations that will remain undetectable forever.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it...

[T206DK]

no sense in looking at your collection with rose colored glasses now. I think Kevin and some others have proven to me that alterations can be made good enough to fool the best graders out there. If you've amassed a lot of graded cards and now are wondering what to think, I don't have an answer for you other than welcome to reality. The hobby's holy grail card has been suspect for years ...some people believe it's unaltered , some don't. I heard the story long before the book came out , and made a decision to not rely on 3rd party graders for peace of mind or to somehow increase the value of a raw card I bought. I trust my own judgement and knowledge when it comes to spending $5 or $5,000 on a card. Some dealers back in the 80's and 90's used to think my brother and I were just cute kids walking around shows with a 10X loop looking at cards. It helped me become better at spotting fishy looking cards and at judging the conditions of cards.
I don't think that card altering is going to cease any time soon either. People can make a good living doing it and to be honest some guys may try to pass altered cards off to grading companies for the thrill of it and for the $$. Once they do it one time it is a green light to continue down that road. I know noone wants to think of it, but I'm sure out there somewhere is a guy who "works" on cards every day for several hours a day with the intention of defraudind someone.

[T206DK]

this is an interesting read

http://www.sportscollectorsdigest.co...le/nerattowle/

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Why is this Plank...

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

...already bid up higher than this SGC 30?

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13374

To me, the first one is a worthless fake, too. But evidently there is a market for this stuff -- even when it is disclosed.

As the high bidder on the first Plank I respect your thoughts...but disagree to a point.

For me I would rather have touched up 150 subjects Plank over a beater or out of focus 2 350 Plank.

There's also big diff to me as collector from a professionally restored original card to a creation of a card that never was (Back/Combo skinned etc). That card had to be a Plank to begin with not a Cobb and another common with a back joined together as the thread is discussing or suggesting. Also as long as it's disclosed I see no problem and the card restored will always sell far below market value not like an undisclosed creation card or trimmed card.

To me it's like classic cars a 100% original rust bucket or a nice looking rebuilt car that's 70% original.

Fact of the matter the market is there for cards like this Plank for simple economics...I want a nice looking 150 Plank and short of trimmed examples and rebuilt ones there has been none for sale in a long time. And if I want an VGEX+ looking Plank 150 this is my option as there has not been one for sale or if was for sale it was out of my price range.

But there's also a flip side why you and others may see no point in the above Plank. There may be other collectors like myself who have no desire to own rougher examples like you currently own Paul.

http://mysite.verizon.net/imagelib/s...et=tlx_picyk90

No judgment to each his own...that's the great thing about all collecting one person will see no point and another finds a lifetime of enjoyment.

As for fakes been here and will continue to be here. Nothing anyone can do about it so get used to it sorry folks. A few folks hacking cards in their spare time to unlock the mystery won't change anything either. The Plank I'm bidding on is a prime example there have been two Planks re-built in the past few years that were sold as such and looked great...ever wonder how many cards are rebuilt that aren't disclosed.

The people who do these restorations are professionals. Not folks who dabble out of their garages or houses. If a person has the time, money and the drive fakes will flow you can’t stop it. The only way we will ever find out is after the fact; after some poor person has been taken...then we will know.

Don't believe me look at the mess Chan created with a stamp from Kinkos and website...LOL

A big step in fixing this hobby is holding folks accountable and having the restraint to say no to the folks who are caught or implicated in bad stuff. Not just outing card doctor techniques and or posting conspiracy theories on a chat board.

Perfect example Mastro/Allen people still bidding in Legendary. Pat Chan people still using the T206musuem...for every thread that airs dirty laundry on here or in print. Collectors still rush to the mailbox and place bids with the same folks we complain about.

We as collectors don't do enough holding folks responsible.

Just saying no I won’t bid in that person’s auction. Or I won’t take this persons word he was caught in a mess and has no real credibility why should I trust him. That would go a lot further than anything Kevin can do for us and we all have the power to do so..but most of us don't I'm even guilty myself to a degree.

That’s why we as collectors will always be taken advantage of because we don’t do the above.

Guys faking cards is just a portion of the bigger problem IMO.

Cheers,

John

[T206Collector]

Wonka,

I know you've been in the market for a Plank for awhile and I do hope you win this one, if that is what you want. As you know, we had this debate back in April '07 when the one you are high bidder on sold for about the same as (perhaps somewhat less than) the Lionel Carter beater in the same auction. Wasn't the Plank you're bidding on sold in an interim aucton recently?

I don't like restored cards, never have. To each his own. But I think it is semantics to argue a difference between rebuilding cards and rebacking/refronting them.

Good luck! :P

[wonkaticket]

Paul correct the rebulit one from prior was in a PSA holder and recently sold in Huggins in an SGC holder. These 150 Planks "Restored" always seem to bring around the same cash you are correct...15-20k.

In the long run I'm with you take a sweet VG any day but 150 VG's just don;t pop up and for my 15-20k now I'd prefer the better looking FrankenPlank..LOL

Actually this card has had less work to it than the prior for what that's worth..

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Paul correct the rebulit one from prior was in a PSA holder and recently sold in Huggins in an SGC holder.

Now I'm just confused. Isn't the current REA the same one that sold in Mastro 2007, with the same PSA cert number and everything (90632253)?

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=73368

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=14790

Edited to add: I think I figured it out -- this one also just sold in Legendary Auctions in March 2010 here:

http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...x?lotid=105481

[FUBAR]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it...

"If a man talks and a woman isn't around to hear it, is he still wrong???"

If its any consolation, id rather have a nice looking rebuilt then a old beater, in cards, cars, and ladies!

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

If its any consolation, id rather have a nice looking rebuilt then a old beater, in cards, cars, and ladies!

Now that is funny! And just like re-built ladies re-built Planks are not cheap...LOL

[wonkaticket]

Paul here are the 2 re-built Planks floating that are disclosed...

The SGC one is the one that was up for sale when you got your Plank..the one in REA is another...



There was this 150 that sold not long ago...but the bottom edge looked funny.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

If its any consolation, id rather have a nice looking rebuilt then a old beater, in cards, cars, and ladies!

Unless the car in question is a LeBaron, then I'd rather have one from the Jon Voight collection.

[tedzan]

" If its any consolation, id rather have a nice looking rebuilt then a old beater, in cards, cars, and ladies! "


CARS......my 1957 original T-Bird with some "rebuilt" goodies under the hood.







My 1960 T-Bird with original goodies under the hood.






CARDS......my "rebuilt" T206's











LADIES......however, nothing "rebuilt" about my wife (the right lady)






TED Z

[drdduet]

Thanks for the disclosures all. I'm a guy who firmly believes in transparency. I've dealt with the realities that some of my $1000+ purchases were fakes--it sucks, but I prefer that I take the hit than try dump that junk to someone else.

I'm no Goldman Sachs.

[ethicsprof]

Ted,
great cars,cards, and wife!!!
Re: Cars----i recently sold my '63 chevy as i'm giving up on all 'shinies'
Re: Cards---i'm fine with an altered/rebuilt as long as it's disclosed and i
need it for my collection.
Re: Wife----about to celebrate 26 years of happily married!!

Darren,
i was shocked and distressed to see that you were ripped off re: some big dollar items. if it can happen to as astute a collector as you, it must be more
rampant than i would've guessed. sorry to hear it, ole friend.

best,
barry

[tedzan]

Barry

Thanks, I will relay your greetings to Charlotte......and, my best wishes to Margaret and you for your forthcoming
26th Anniversary.


Darren
Regarding your......" Thanks for the disclosures all. I'm a guy who firmly believes in transparency. "

I posted this subject matter expressly for just what you said. The more information we have, the better equipped
we are to avoid being "ripped-off". Ten years ago when these T206 re-fronted fakes were in circulation, we did not
have the knowledge we have today. It's sad, though, to read that one (or two) here have objected to this thread.

I'm very sorry to hear of your experiences. If you don't mind, would you care to share some details of this ?


TED Z

[barrysloate]

Barry- next week is my 25th! One year older, one more year married.

[ethicsprof]

We do have a lot in common, ole friend.
By the way, Saw Palmetto,pygeum, and beta sitosterol combo does wonders with what my Emory bud, Jeff L,
was teasing you about!! Being a year older than you, i should know.
I'm sure that our resident doc(Darren) who knows his alternative medicine would agree.
Good luck buying the expensive 25th anniv. present,Barry S.
Margaret loved her diamond!
all the best,
barry

[barrysloate]

I used to take saw palmetto but I didn't notice any change...and no expensive anniversary gift forthcoming. It will be low key.