cards of great historical figures

[G1911]

And here's some more history cards, from the strange dandies set. Alcibiades is one of those figures of history that it is sometimes difficult to believe was even a real man. I love the Caesar image.

[G1911]

I always liked Goethe's line about Bonaparte that serves as the epigram to Emil Ludwig's book. "Napoleon went forth to seek Virtue, but, since she was not to be found, he got Power".

[wdmullins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why? Why for example isn't Michael Jackson's first card as significant as Mike Trout's, relatively speaking?

For several reasons -

1. Athletes have well-defined rookie seasons, and in general, the people pictured on non-sports cards do not. (When was Neil Armstrong's rookie year -- 1969, when he landed on the moon? 1966, when he flew his Gemini mission? In 1955, when he became a test pilot? 1949, when he joined the Navy?)

2. While sports cards have rookie cards defined separately from first cards (usually based on the differences between playing in major and minor leagues), the distinction is lost in non-sports cards.

3. In sports, a rookie card generally means a card issued in association with a player's rookie season, but not in non-sports (else John Milton's "rookie card" would be well over 300 years old). Michael Jackson first sang professionally in 1964 (as part of the Jackson 5), and as a solo in 1971. His first foreign card seems to have been in 1971 (as part of the J5), his first solo card was 1972 (also foreign), and his first US, solo card would have been from his 1984 Topps set. Which of these most corresponds to what is accepted as a sports rookie card? I'd say the 1984 Topps, but it's either 20 or 13 years too late to be a "rookie" card.

4. To people who've collected non-sports for a long time, the whole idea of a non-sports rookie card appears to be an attempt by sports card speculators to identify and hype non-sport cards as being more valuable than they otherwise would be, given that their intrinsic scarcity and value isn't any greater than any other card from the same set.

5. And often, people who identify a particular card as a non-sports celebrity's "rookie" card are simply ignorant and wrong when they do so (and I'm not accusing anyone in this thread, btw) -- I recently informed someone who was calling an Impel Terminator 2 card Arnold Schwarzenegger's rookie card that they were a year late -- he had appeared in the previous year on cards in Pacific's Totall Recall set.

Anyone who says a particular card is a celebrity's first card is making a statement of fact. Calling it a "rookie" card, though, is just putting a label on the card that it usually doesn't deserve, with the connotation that it has a value associated with it that the market may or may not bear out.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wdmullins

For several reasons -

4. To people who've collected non-sports for a long time, the whole idea of a non-sports rookie card appears to be an attempt by sports card speculators to identify and hype non-sport cards as being more valuable than they otherwise would be, given that their intrinsic scarcity and value isn't any greater than any other card from the same set.

This is exactly what it was in sports too; a speculative hype train started by those who stood to profit if people bought in on the sales pitch, and here we are with everyone on that train and chugging full steam ahead. I've never really 'understood' the rookie craze, but when one of my Discord groups is busy hyping a Trout rookie, it somehow seems less strange to me than when they're trying to hype Boba Fett's rookie card. Athletes, non-sports, I understand 'first card' appeal (which is different from rookie, with the loose and usually inconsistent rookie rules that seem to exist almost solely to exclude any card that isn't easy to get because it would be difficult to profit as easily on). First card makes sense to me. I don't get first card appeal for fictional characters in non-sports land. I get wanting the first card of a favored baseball player (which is rarely their "rookie" that is hyped for $$$$) or an actor or a historical figure (Good luck there identifying anonymous CDV's...) one admires or collects.

[wdmullins]

Originally Posted by G1911

This is exactly what it was in sports too; a speculative hype train started by those who stood to profit if people bought in on the sales pitch,

Eeh, maybe not so much when "rookie" cards first became a thing in sports cards. At that time, there was Topps. And that's it. There was no problem identifying Pete Rose's 1963 card as his rookie card, as there were no other cards that it could possibly be. There were no chase subsets, no parallels, nothing else to speak of. You simply identified the first card that a player appeared on, and 90%+ of the time, it was by default the rookie card.

All the hyping of one card over another came later, in the 1980s, as the number of cards proliferated.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wdmullins

Eeh, maybe not so much when "rookie" cards first became a thing in sports cards. At that time, there was Topps. And that's it. There was no problem identifying Pete Rose's 1963 card as his rookie card, as there were no other cards that it could possibly be. There were no chase subsets, no parallels, nothing else to speak of. You simply identified the first card that a player appeared on, and 90%+ of the time, it was by default the rookie card.

All the hyping of one card over another came later, in the 1980s, as the number of cards proliferated.

In 1963 no one gave a darn about rookies at all and they weren’t special. The rookie as a special item is an invention of the early 80’s dealers. Since we are talking about collecting rookies specifically, not that they existed (of course players have had first cards or what we calla rookie now for the entirety of card history), that is the context used. There was not only Topps, many, even if most significant post war players first cards are absolutely not Topps; it’s just the Topps card that is branded the rookie.

[wdmullins]

Although I used a 1963 Rose as an example, the period I was thinking of was ca. 1979. I worked at a comic shop in Nashville then, and we sold baseball cards as well. That was the time when we first started seeing reference to "rookie" cards in the press (as it was), in guides, and started to mark such cards as "rookies" on stickers. This period - the late 1970s, when it was a Topps-only world, and before Donruss and Fleer came along -- was when rookie cards became the hypable thing they are today.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wdmullins

Although I used a 1963 Rose as an example, the period I was thinking of was ca. 1979. I worked at a comic shop in Nashville then, and we sold baseball cards as well. That was the time when we first started seeing reference to "rookie" cards in the press (as it was), in guides, and started to mark such cards as "rookies" on stickers. This period - the late 1970s, when it was a Topps-only world, and before Donruss and Fleer came along -- was when rookie cards became the hypable thing they are today.

Okay. We'll move it from 1981 to 1979. Doesn't change anything. Topps was NOT the only game in town. They were the only huge manufacturer with an annual MLB wide release, but a ton of the 1956-1980 players have first cards outside of the Topps orbit. They appear in regional issues, in team issues, in a host of other sets that you will find in the standard catalog. I don't think there is anything to debate here...

[G1911]

Some more authors of 4 completely different literary types.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David is probably the leading collector of and expert on music cards in the world. He has moved towards adopting the term. Rookie card, first card, all the same to me.


https://imageevent.com/halpen/rockro...rww8caa1y1.cow

If only someone would do this for movie cards.

[G1911]

This is, I think without doing any research or critical thinking, the Topps Rookie Card of one of the most significant people in human history, a man whose impact on human development is difficult to overstate. It costs a tiny fraction of the rookie card of whoever is currently tearing up A ball and has collectors 'literally shaking' when they pull his paper base Bowman.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Speaking of rookie cards, here is the first card -- a 1954 British issue I looked for for years -- of the wondrous Julie Andrews.

[G1911]

I'm pretty sure this here is another significant rookie card. After all, Jesus is portrayed as just a baby!

I'm open to offers, no lowballs, I know what I have. If Mickey is 10 Mill, the Christ is at least 20 mil.

[G1911]

It was on the sixth day that God created man in his own image. But it was Sam Colt that made men equal, with the six shooter.

Colt was an innovator in more than just firearms, in many ways he laid a template for business and marketing, with celebrity endorsements, product placement, fanciful marketing campaigns and the use of an assembly line with interchangeable parts. The libraries and educational programs he created in his facilities led to a generation of mechanical engineers and machinists largely coming from Colt before entering and reshaping other mechanical industries and products.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The Chairman has a shared card from 1945 but 1947 as far as I know is the year of his first solo cards. Just in.

[G1911]

Umberto I, King of Italy for over 2 decades. The man endured an absurd number of anarchist assassination attempts, one of which he fended off with his saber. They finally got him in 1900.

[G1911]

The OG's of Sci-Fi.

[wdmullins]

Originally Posted by G1911

The OG's of Sci-Fi.

Mary Shelley was writing SF before either of these guys were born.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by wdmullins

Mary Shelley was writing SF before either of these guys were born.

One of my professors used to argue that the first science fiction was Plato's Timaeus. I didn't buy the thesis but he had a fair argument for it.

[wdmullins]

"Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?"

"Yes."

"Morons!"

[G1911]

Classic movie!

Here's another 19th century Ginter author. The early years of Ginter included a fair number of writers I like and picked up.

[G1911]

A late cabinet card of Melville Weston Fuller, the eighth Chief Justice of the Supreme Court from 1888 until his death in 1910. There was damage to his face and his shoulder that was touched up at some time, and done fairly well.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by G1911

Umberto I, King of Italy for over 2 decades. The man endured an absurd number of anarchist assassination attempts, one of which he fended off with his saber. They finally got him in 1900.

I really enjoy little bits of history like that, very cool. That mustache is next level!

Here is my historic pickup, the GOAT. His biggest accomplishment, aside from establishing the presidency, was leaving it, setting the precedence for a lasting democracy.

[Rad_Hazard]

It's not everyday you get to pickup a 19th century card of your hometown. Also snagged another Washington!

[BobbyStrawberry]

Teddy Roosevelt, postmarked during his presidency

[G1911]

The Kinney Leaders are a great set.


Here is a CDV of Eduard Falckenstein, who spent 60 years in the Prussian and German armies, beginning as an enlisted rifleman and rose to the top, playing a part, often significant, in almost all of the German wars. Another benefit of CDV's is one can get cheap contemporary cards of some people who were historical figures in that time, but have few other card options.


Also, an unrelated request. Anyone have a card of Shaka, king of the Zulus? I've never seen one but would like to add him to my history collection.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by G1911

The Kinney Leaders are a great set.


Here is a CDV of Eduard Falckenstein, who spent 60 years in the Prussian and German armies, beginning as an enlisted rifleman and rose to the top, playing a part, often significant, in almost all of the German wars. Another benefit of CDV's is one can get cheap contemporary cards of some people who were historical figures in that time, but have few other card options.


Also, an unrelated request. Anyone have a card of Shaka, king of the Zulus? I've never seen one but would like to add him to my history collection.

Here is one:

https://www.comc.com/Cards/Non-Sport...rrior/10632438

[G1911]

Originally Posted by sthoemke

Here is one:

https://www.comc.com/Cards/Non-Sport...rrior/10632438

I was thinking one that maybe looked like him , but this is one interesting card here. Someone bought it for $1.04.

[G1911]

Captain John Smith, soldier, geographer, governor, author, and more, who named New England.

[Peter_Spaeth]

While next to worthless in all likelihood, this is a grail for me, almost certainly the first card (it's actually a sticker) of JFK, 1961 Chocolates Simon from Spain. One rarely sees the 1961 issue and more commonly sees the 1964 (think Cassius Clay).

[G1911]

Nice picture too. Is their a list somewhere of the earliest cards for each President?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Nice picture too. Is their a list somewhere of the earliest cards for each President?

Not that I know of.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trading Card Database is a pretty good resource, but they don't list most foreign issues, and there are many obscure foreign issues.

[G1911]

"This isn't a 'commie'... Nothing funny about Teddy" - 1907. Postcards can be fun with the historically interesting or amusing writing.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Trading Card Database is a pretty good resource, but they don't list most foreign issues, and there are many obscure foreign issues.

Great resource. I don't collect rookies, but its interesting to see how early major historical figures got a card. I'd imagine most of the Presidents rookies pre-date their campaigns. I also imagine before going through the TCDB that I own exactly 0 presidential rookies

[theshowandme]

Cards I need but don’t know if any exist

Claude Monet, Richard Feynman, Audie Murphy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Cards I need but don’t know if any exist

Claude Monet, Richard Feynman, Audie Murphy

Here is the only Monet I know. I've seen an Audie Murphy in a Dutch Gum issue. I think he's in Nu Cards Western too. Check the Trading Card Database.

[G1911]

Audie Murphy has a lot, including a bunch of Dutch cards, a 1956 Adventure card that should be cheap, and some modern stuff like the 1992 Starline Americana and Historic Autographs WWII set.

[G1911]

William Howard Taft, 1909.

[Rad_Hazard]

Love all the presidential stuff!

This arrived today. Garfield is a fascinating political figure. I highly recommend the audiobook/book Destiny of the Republic.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Love all the presidential stuff!

This arrived today. Garfield is a fascinating political figure. I highly recommend the audiobook/book Destiny of the Republic.

The same author wrote a really interesting book on Theodore Roosevelt's exploration of the Amazon, River of Doubt, if you haven't read it by chance.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by G1911

The same author wrote a really interesting book on Theodore Roosevelt's exploration of the Amazon, River of Doubt, if you haven't read it by chance.

I have not, thanks! I'll check it out.

[michael3322]

Maybe in the category of lesser known historical figures...

How about Frank Hart, "The first black athlete depicted on a sports card, trading card or tobacco card" (Wikipedia entry)

Hart's card from 1880 in an SGC 2, sold for $5,276 in March.

See: https://youtu.be/Z_pql3vdoqI?t=64



PSA has 1 graded (a PSA 2)
SGC has 4 graded (highest is an SGC 2)

[G1911]

I collect Leo Tolstoy specifically and have bought a lot of postcards from around the end of his life from Eastern Europe over the years. Here's 4 of my favorites.

[Peter_Spaeth]

1950s issue of Sir Edmund..

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by G1911

"This isn't a 'commie'... Nothing funny about Teddy" - 1907. Postcards can be fun with the historically interesting or amusing writing.

It says "This isn't a comic' not commie.

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by G1911

Audie Murphy has a lot, including a bunch of Dutch cards, a 1956 Adventure card that should be cheap, and some modern stuff like the 1992 Starline Americana and Historic Autographs WWII set.

COMC has a couple dozen Audie Murphy cards indexed, some for sale.

https://www.comc.com/Cards,so,vList,=Audie+Murphy,oo

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Cards I need but don’t know if any exist

Claude Monet, Richard Feynman, Audie Murphy

Here are 2 cards of Richard Feynman indexed on COMC:

https://www.comc.com/Cards,so,vList,=Richard+Feynman,oo

[G1911]

The Kaiser.

[G1911]

Heavy lies the bicorne.