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  #1  
Old 10-21-2021, 12:25 PM
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samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
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Default Finally got a Blue Cap!

I picked up my PSA 4 Leaf Jackie (pictured left) just before the prices went nuts, and I thought that was it, right? Wrong. After studying a few examples and going back and forth with a few members on this forum, I realized that I needed to add one more to my PC, which I call the 'blue cap' variation. This card is seen on the right of the photo and you can tell the dramatic difference between the two. Okay, so exactly what is the 'blue cap' variation? The black ink (or black dots to be more precise) is missing on the cap. The black ink is what gives it a three-dimensional appearance, and without it, it is just going to look flat, or two-dimensional.

As for his pink face, the explanation behind that is simple: the magenta and black dots don't line up and this is why his face appears that way. If this registration problem was corrected, then the card would appear more like the one on the left (the PSA 4).

And finally, you are probably wondering why this card graded AUTH - ALTERED. I measured it, and top-to-bottom was fine, but it was a bit short left-to-right. It looks like somebody did a very sloppy trim job on the right edge. No, it wasn't done by one of those "professional trimmers" who have been outed on the Blowout Forums. I believe this trim job was probably performed decades ago when this card was worth a few bucks. I think that's all that was done to this card, but I might be wrong. If you're an expert on this issue and would like large front and back scans, then PM me your email. I would love to hear your opinions!

Anyhow, I hope this thread will make all of you study this set in more detail and go after the different variations. It's very fun!
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Last edited by Leon; 10-21-2021 at 12:31 PM. Reason: resized pic a bit..
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2021, 12:40 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
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Default Variations

I don't know that it will ever be fully recognized, but there are several variations that were made in the printing plates, much like the Aberson, Hermanski and Peterson variations that are the mainstream ones.

Dimaggio, Musial, Jackie and I would argue Honus (lower hand) all had some kind of masking done to their plates to make hat colors more prominent.

It's a great set, and those are two great cards! Congrats!
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  #3  
Old 10-21-2021, 12:58 PM
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mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
Jeffrey Kuhr
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very nice cards
Congrats
Also thanks for the education in this variation
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Jeff Kuhr

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144250058@N05/

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Looking for
1921/22 Ruth Throwing Pose "Babe" and George
1921 Frederick Foto Ruth
1917 Boston Store Babe Ruth
Joe Jackson Cards 1916 Advertising Backs
1910 Old Mills Joe Jackson
1914 Boston Garter Joe Jackson
1914 E & S Publishing Card Joe Jackson
other Joe Jackson playing day cards
1914 CJ Christy Christopher Mathewson
1911 M110 Sporting Life Cobb and Wagner Cards
1908 Rose Postcard Ty Cobb
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  #4  
Old 10-21-2021, 01:05 PM
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samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks87 View Post
I don't know that it will ever be fully recognized, but there are several variations that were made in the printing plates, much like the Aberson, Hermanski and Peterson variations that are the mainstream ones.

Dimaggio, Musial, Jackie and I would argue Honus (lower hand) all had some kind of masking done to their plates to make hat colors more prominent.

It's a great set, and those are two great cards! Congrats!
Thank you!

I believe that these cards were early printings and corrections were made later on. So, in other words, the blue cap Jackie was printed before my PSA 4. The short sleeve Aberson was printed before the long sleeve, etc. Of course, one could argue that the opposite happened. For example, the long sleeve came out first and the short sleeve after due to a printing error. Ted Z. does argue this in one of his older posts on this forum.
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  #5  
Old 10-21-2021, 02:49 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
Scott Russell
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Funny how the Leaf football variations get so much more official recognition.
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  #6  
Old 10-21-2021, 04:49 PM
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bnorth bnorth is offline
Ben North
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
I picked up my PSA 4 Leaf Jackie (pictured left) just before the prices went nuts, and I thought that was it, right? Wrong. After studying a few examples and going back and forth with a few members on this forum, I realized that I needed to add one more to my PC, which I call the 'blue cap' variation. This card is seen on the right of the photo and you can tell the dramatic difference between the two. Okay, so exactly what is the 'blue cap' variation? The black ink (or black dots to be more precise) is missing on the cap. The black ink is what gives it a three-dimensional appearance, and without it, it is just going to look flat, or two-dimensional.

As for his pink face, the explanation behind that is simple: the magenta and black dots don't line up and this is why his face appears that way. If this registration problem was corrected, then the card would appear more like the one on the left (the PSA 4).

And finally, you are probably wondering why this card graded AUTH - ALTERED. I measured it, and top-to-bottom was fine, but it was a bit short left-to-right. It looks like somebody did a very sloppy trim job on the right edge. No, it wasn't done by one of those "professional trimmers" who have been outed on the Blowout Forums. I believe this trim job was probably performed decades ago when this card was worth a few bucks. I think that's all that was done to this card, but I might be wrong. If you're an expert on this issue and would like large front and back scans, then PM me your email. I would love to hear your opinions!

Anyhow, I hope this thread will make all of you study this set in more detail and go after the different variations. It's very fun!
That is a cool print offset on the blue hat one. Is it a double print card? That would explain the different color cap and one having a yellow line down the left side and the other don't. That yellow line isn't any kind of print error.
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  #7  
Old 10-21-2021, 05:18 PM
NiceDocter NiceDocter is offline
Rocky Rockwell
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Default Variation

I was at a show in Willow Grove in the early 1980s … a dealer named George Lyons ( who was always very nice to me and sold me a bunch of stuff) had a notebook with at least 10 exmt 48 Leaf Jackie Robinsons. I bought one for $40 … he said pick whichever you want. He told me to take one specifically but I chose another. The one he told me to take had a distinctly orange background….. different from all the rest. He was giving me good advice and I’m sorry I didn’t take it…. but I still remember that Day almost 40 years ago and that card I didn’t buy.
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  #8  
Old 10-21-2021, 05:51 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
I believe that these cards were early printings and corrections were made later on. So, in other words, the blue cap Jackie was printed before my PSA 4. The short sleeve Aberson was printed before the long sleeve, etc. Of course, one could argue that the opposite happened. For example, the long sleeve came out first and the short sleeve after due to a printing error. Ted Z. does argue this in one of his older posts on this forum.
Ted Z. is the guru of Leaf for sure, it would probably need to come down to which had the smaller run, the initial offering or the correction, as there are a lot less of the "blue hat" variations. In my printing experience, masking a plate off to mute heavy ink areas is usually the correction side of things, though that doesn't account for the yellow stripe on all "blue hat versions", if the stripe was the correction, then the full color version of the hats were the initial printing, and the details were added later by unmasking or remaking the plates, which may account for the short print? A mystery for sure. Ted has a uncut sheet layout and maybe able to (or already has) shed light on the short print distribution as far as date, and if it was a restrike, or a new printing all together that may have used stars as fillers to fill the page, with slight variations to the image.
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  #9  
Old 10-21-2021, 05:55 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
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here is a side by side I did a while back.

LEAF_ERRORS_2021.jpg
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2021, 08:26 AM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
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Default Scooter

I actually came across the similar variation on a Phil Rizzuto card last night, chalk it up the to unrecognized variations!
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  #11  
Old 10-22-2021, 09:45 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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As far as I can tell the entire set has these variations.

The pinkish face on the blue hat is actually from them using basic magenta in the CMYK process. The cards with it aren't the easiest to find compared to the others. On Jackie it's harder to spot. On cards with a red background it's very easy.
Like the Ruth card in this screenshot.


Most or all the portraits and cards where a bat is near the border have the extra lines of color. It's deliberate, and I believe the order was.
Pink backgrounds extra color along portraits/bats
Red backgrounds extra color along portraits/bats
Red backgrounds extra color along portraits/bats Shading added to hats
Red backgrounds no extra color shading added to hats.

Since there's four colors there are also some odd transitional types.

I think the pink was changed because.... Kids didn't want pink baseball cards?
The extra bars of color were probably removed to save a bit on ink. It seems trivial but over a long press run it adds up. (Or possibly a cost tradeoff with adding the shading. It's a pretty messed up set printingwise so who knows what they were thinking. )

I made a spreadsheet for myself with as many pictures of the variations as I could find. for most cards I found 3-4 but I consider it an ongoing thing. I check through ebay etc every now and then, and usually find a "new" one.
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  #12  
Old 10-22-2021, 11:48 AM
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samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrreality68 View Post
very nice cards
Congrats
Also thanks for the education in this variation
Thank you! I am glad you like this thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth View Post
That is a cool print offset on the blue hat one. Is it a double print card? That would explain the different color cap and one having a yellow line down the left side and the other don't. That yellow line isn't any kind of print error.
It sure is cool! The Jackie is not a DP. Here is the uncut sheet which was posted by Ted Z. back in 2016:



Quote:
Originally Posted by NiceDocter View Post
I was at a show in Willow Grove in the early 1980s … a dealer named George Lyons ( who was always very nice to me and sold me a bunch of stuff) had a notebook with at least 10 exmt 48 Leaf Jackie Robinsons. I bought one for $40 … he said pick whichever you want. He told me to take one specifically but I chose another. The one he told me to take had a distinctly orange background….. different from all the rest. He was giving me good advice and I’m sorry I didn’t take it…. but I still remember that Day almost 40 years ago and that card I didn’t buy.
That is crrraaazzzzyyyy!! An orange background Jackie? Wow! Did you keep the one you bought from George that day? Show it off here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks87 View Post
Ted Z. is the guru of Leaf for sure, it would probably need to come down to which had the smaller run, the initial offering or the correction, as there are a lot less of the "blue hat" variations. In my printing experience, masking a plate off to mute heavy ink areas is usually the correction side of things, though that doesn't account for the yellow stripe on all "blue hat versions", if the stripe was the correction, then the full color version of the hats were the initial printing, and the details were added later by unmasking or remaking the plates, which may account for the short print? A mystery for sure. Ted has a uncut sheet layout and maybe able to (or already has) shed light on the short print distribution as far as date, and if it was a restrike, or a new printing all together that may have used stars as fillers to fill the page, with slight variations to the image.
I have never worked in the printing field before, and so my knowledge on this subject is limited. But I am lucky that I got to interview someone who worked at Zabel Brothers, and of course, talking to all of you on here helped me a lot. I didn't know that plates could be masked - sounds pretty cool. This might have been done with these cards.



The above card is from the hard-to-find second series and you can see how the striping on his jersey is missing on the second card. Was this change deliberate or a print error? Interesting stuff, for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
As far as I can tell the entire set has these variations.

The pinkish face on the blue hat is actually from them using basic magenta in the CMYK process. The cards with it aren't the easiest to find compared to the others. On Jackie it's harder to spot. On cards with a red background it's very easy.
Like the Ruth card in this screenshot.


Most or all the portraits and cards where a bat is near the border have the extra lines of color. It's deliberate, and I believe the order was.
Pink backgrounds extra color along portraits/bats
Red backgrounds extra color along portraits/bats
Red backgrounds extra color along portraits/bats Shading added to hats
Red backgrounds no extra color shading added to hats.

Since there's four colors there are also some odd transitional types.

I think the pink was changed because.... Kids didn't want pink baseball cards?
The extra bars of color were probably removed to save a bit on ink. It seems trivial but over a long press run it adds up. (Or possibly a cost tradeoff with adding the shading. It's a pretty messed up set printingwise so who knows what they were thinking. )

I made a spreadsheet for myself with as many pictures of the variations as I could find. for most cards I found 3-4 but I consider it an ongoing thing. I check through ebay etc every now and then, and usually find a "new" one.
Hey - how have you been? You should link your old thread on this subject here. A lot of us would like to look over it again.

And by the way, everybody, here is the famous Ted Z. Leaf thread below:

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=222952
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  #13  
Old 10-22-2021, 02:33 PM
NiceDocter NiceDocter is offline
Rocky Rockwell
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Default The one I bought

By request, here is the one I bought in early 1980 and sold at a REA auction in 2007 ( another boo boo on my part!)
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=8625
Lot #463 if the link doesnt work.... and before you feel sorry for me on that one, check out another one I sold in the same auction.......
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=8304...
Okay now be nice..... that last card has an interesting story as well. I was at the Nashville flea market on a Saturday in 1979, a collector showed me the card and said he had just bought it off someone walking around for $75!! I said man, I would have given him $100 easy!.... the guy pulled out the card and said.... SHOW ME THE MONEY! or something like that.... so I gave him $100, and took the thing home raw in no holder in my front shirt pocket!! When I sent it to Rob Lifson he was sure it had been trimmed but I dont think it ever was.... and it graded a solid 6 ( maybe should have gone higher?? ) anyhow its another one I wish I had back, Im sure weve all got stories like this and these are some of mine...... Rocky
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  #14  
Old 10-22-2021, 05:34 PM
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samosa4u samosa4u is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiceDocter View Post
By request, here is the one I bought in early 1980 and sold at a REA auction in 2007 ( another boo boo on my part!)
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=8625
Lot #463 if the link doesnt work.... and before you feel sorry for me on that one, check out another one I sold in the same auction.......
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...ce?itemid=8304...
Okay now be nice..... that last card has an interesting story as well. I was at the Nashville flea market on a Saturday in 1979, a collector showed me the card and said he had just bought it off someone walking around for $75!! I said man, I would have given him $100 easy!.... the guy pulled out the card and said.... SHOW ME THE MONEY! or something like that.... so I gave him $100, and took the thing home raw in no holder in my front shirt pocket!! When I sent it to Rob Lifson he was sure it had been trimmed but I dont think it ever was.... and it graded a solid 6 ( maybe should have gone higher?? ) anyhow its another one I wish I had back, Im sure weve all got stories like this and these are some of mine...... Rocky
Rocky,

Thank you for sharing this with us! I was drooling over that Jackie, but the green Cobb made me fall outta' my seat! That one was a killer! Are you still collecting non-sports?
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2021, 11:22 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
Brian K
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After a crazy turn of events, I have now joined the "Two Blue Cap Club!"
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  #16  
Old 11-05-2021, 10:49 AM
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samosa4u samosa4u is offline
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Wow! Beautiful! Wanna' trade your PSA 4 for my PSA 4 above?
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  #17  
Old 11-05-2021, 04:44 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
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Originally Posted by samosa4u View Post
Wow! Beautiful! Wanna' trade your PSA 4 for my PSA 4 above?
Such a move may throw the universe out of order. I don't think we should meddle with such things!

Last edited by yanks87; 11-05-2021 at 07:48 PM.
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  #18  
Old 11-05-2021, 05:25 PM
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A new perspective. I don't have a single dupe that is exactly the same. I always figured it was poor qc instead of attempted corrections.
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Old 11-05-2021, 07:52 PM
yanks87 yanks87 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tao_Moko View Post
A new perspective. I don't have a single dupe that is exactly the same. I always figured it was poor qc instead of attempted corrections.
I think you are totally right about the QC department, they were drunk more than they were sober. That said, the consistencies of the variations point toward an additional change made in the plates at some point on a select few of the cards.
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