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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used

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  #1  
Old 04-08-2017, 01:16 PM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
Brad Pencil
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Default Wagner and Jackson mini decal bats

Posted in another section but wanted to post here too.

Here is a 22" decal of Wagner that I recently picked up along with a 14" Jackson. These were purchased from an antiques dealer Florida.

Any way being in the printing industry I would say that at least this one is not anything that was manufactured post-1940 due to the florescent inks unless they paid for non-archival inks which would make this cost more to make than they would get back in return (that is unless they did a print run in the tens of thousands to reduce cost). I attached a photo with a black light showing the glow of the newer tissue paper by the decal of the bat.

Any thoughts on these would be great, they are not long for my collection as I don't deal in this side of things often.

Sorry for all the photos.

Thanks,
Brad
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Last edited by pencil1974; 04-08-2017 at 01:49 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:15 PM
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gnaz01 gnaz01 is offline
Gr3g N@z@r3th
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FWIW, these decals were reproduced. The Jackson for example, the bat appears WAY older than the decal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-base...0AAOSwhcJWLWQr

Last edited by gnaz01; 04-08-2017 at 03:17 PM.
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  #3  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:41 PM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
bobby
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Default dosnt add up.

the Wagner is on a later date bat. the white line on bottom left of the decal shouldn't be there.
The Jackson is on the correct bat . the color of the decal is wrong. the field beneath Louisville slugger should be silver/gold not green.
and just to perfect for the bat. there are obvious dings on the bat and not one on the decal.
The Jackson would make a nice display peace. the Wagner?.
This is my opinion we all have one.
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  #4  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:43 PM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
Brad Pencil
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Thanks for the link Greg, I can see some printing issues on the reproduced items that are not on mine which helps a lot. The whites on the repo's I bet glow like there is no tomorrow when hit with a black light. You can see the brightness/richness that wouldn't happen with inks in the early 1900's.

The Jackson I'm actually not worried about looking newer as that is more a product of the photos. In hand you can tell its old and seems a bit brittle which is why I really don't like handling these. lol.
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  #5  
Old 04-08-2017, 03:54 PM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
Brad Pencil
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Thanks Bobby, what year is the wagner bat on? The Jackson is actually is a gold tint and not green, but with green in the smaller areas, another product of photography.

Well opinions are good though.
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  #6  
Old 04-08-2017, 08:07 PM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
bobby
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Default wagner & jackson decals

you asked my opinion about your bats. I asked you to submit your questions on this forum. I did this so you might get opinions from others also. not just mine. you disagree with the two opinions you got there are many others that could agree with you. you claim you can prove that the bats are authentic.
the people on net54 are the most knowledgeable collectors I no.
you will receive honest comments and answers.
I suggest you continue this discussion on these bats on net54. provide your knowledge and expertize about decals to everyone. and use your years of experience in this field to help all of us that collect decal bats understand them better.
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  #7  
Old 04-08-2017, 09:21 PM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
bobby
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Default joe jackson/Wagner decals

your Wagner is one of the best I have seen on the wrong bat. might actually be a real decal?. I no were some are.
the Jackson decal is just wrong . right bat.
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Last edited by minibatsman; 04-08-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-08-2017, 09:32 PM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
Brad Pencil
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Thanks man much appreciated.
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  #9  
Old 04-08-2017, 09:53 PM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
Brad Pencil
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Here is a better photo of the Jackson that the color is not muted. I put it beside one that is from Mears. It's a bit closer than what I think you think it is Bobby since you have to go off of the photos provided. In hand looks different than photos. You can't really go off a printed sheet to compare decals too because it's the same thing but not really. Printed sheet should always look more crisp than when it's wrapped on anything. Those are beautiful by the way, how long have you had them?

Like I said opinions are always good because it makes you think. I'm also a visual guy and would love to see the dating on the mini bats that you have as I'm sure that would help the community out as well. Thanks again!
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File Type: jpg Jackson_side.jpg (70.6 KB, 232 views)

Last edited by pencil1974; 04-08-2017 at 09:54 PM.
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  #10  
Old 04-09-2017, 08:14 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
bobby
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Default Joe jackson

Quote:
Originally Posted by pencil1974 View Post
Here is a better photo of the Jackson that the color is not muted. I put it beside one that is from Mears. It's a bit closer than what I think you think it is Bobby since you have to go off of the photos provided. In hand looks different than photos. You can't really go off a printed sheet to compare decals too because it's the same thing but not really. Printed sheet should always look more crisp than when it's wrapped on anything. Those are beautiful by the way, how long have you had them?

Like I said opinions are always good because it makes you think. I'm also a visual guy and would love to see the dating on the mini bats that you have as I'm sure that would help the community out as well. Thanks again!
This is a start . up close there are some flaws on the decal there always are . it is important to understand your first photos of the bat were just to clean. when I first looked at your bat I didn't like it. it is was just to green this is a red flag and the Wagner didn't help your case. your comparison to another decal is very good. I used the sheet to show a never used decal and to show the silver. I have bats also and most of them are darker. the colors do vary from bright silver to green in the field. but everyone of them has a hint of silver/gold in the field. including the other bat you have provided a photo of. near perfect Jackson mini decal bats are very rare not many exist. I will give your bat a second look .some closer photos similar to the last photo of the entire bat could. help.

Last edited by minibatsman; 04-09-2017 at 09:07 AM.
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  #11  
Old 04-09-2017, 08:49 AM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
Brad Pencil
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Thanks Bobby, its always hard with photos and lighting but I figured that the new photo with natural light would help. I will try to post some more photos later today if I get a chance of the entire bat if I can, if not tomorrow for sure. There are flaws for sure on the decal but all-in-all it's in pretty decent shape.
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  #12  
Old 04-09-2017, 11:42 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
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Default dings

Quote:
Originally Posted by minibatsman View Post
This is a start . up close there are some flaws on the decal there always are . it is important to understand your first photos of the bat were just to clean. when I first looked at your bat I didn't like it. it is was just to green this is a red flag and the Wagner didn't help your case. your comparison to another decal is very good. I used the sheet to show a never used decal and to show the silver. I have bats also and most of them are darker. the colors do vary from bright silver to green in the field. but everyone of them has a hint of silver/gold in the field. including the other bat you have provided a photo of. near perfect Jackson mini decal bats are very rare not many exist. I will give your bat a second look .some closer photos similar to the last photo of the entire bat could. help.
there looks like there are some dings in your bat. I would like a close up of them. the ones that transfer into the bat and the decal are best. but close ups of the entire bat would be good. the comparison of the decals side by side of both decals the entire decals also.
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  #13  
Old 04-10-2017, 09:10 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
bobby
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Default joe jackson

Quote:
Originally Posted by minibatsman View Post
there looks like there are some dings in your bat. I would like a close up of them. the ones that transfer into the bat and the decal are best. but close ups of the entire bat would be good. the comparison of the decals side by side of both decals the entire decals also.
Seen all I need to see. of the Jackson bats I have seen this is a top 10 bat.

Maybe one day these bats will get the attention they deserve?.

If this was a 1916 Joe Jackson card. you would have got no less than 25 opinions on this site?. this is a very rare mini bat. that maybe 10 exist in similar condition .you got two opinions.

Last edited by minibatsman; 04-10-2017 at 01:13 PM.
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  #14  
Old 04-10-2017, 06:56 PM
pencil1974 pencil1974 is offline
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Thanks Bobby. Sorry I didn't get a chance to get back on and get the other photos up. I actually took them but just have had zero time with my kids pulling one way and the wife pulling another. I appreciated all the info you gave and all the opinions either good or bad. They help for sure.

Thanks so much!
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  #15  
Old 04-11-2017, 08:51 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pencil1974 View Post
Thanks Bobby. Sorry I didn't get a chance to get back on and get the other photos up. I actually took them but just have had zero time with my kids pulling one way and the wife pulling another. I appreciated all the info you gave and all the opinions either good or bad. They help for sure.

Thanks so much!
please understand this is my opinion. I do not have mini bat certificate hanging on the wall. I have had other discussion's and have made comments about these bats that were wrong. this is why I asked you to bring the bat up for open discussion.
this series of seven decals was purchased by H&S after the world series in 1914. H&S bats are 1915 your decal was applied by H&B in 1916.
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  #16  
Old 04-11-2017, 09:54 AM
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I like both of them. I've had maybe a dozen or two mini or full-size decals in my life and and yours are very very nice. Like Bobby said both are high quality. Is the center brand on the 22" Wagner really really light or is it a stamp? I've seen some that were stamped but most are branded. I think the branded ones are more desirable than the stamps. Unfortunately, I sold my last batch of 7-8 in an REA auction in 2002-3 or so. The Joe Jackson is beautiful and like Bobby said, they are rarely found in nice shape. I would auction them somewhere to maximize the return. I've seen similar ones in Hunt bring $1-$2K+ depending on who gets in on the bidding. Hunts Louisville Slugger auction in mid-November typically has a few in it. Good luck with them.
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  #17  
Old 04-11-2017, 11:37 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
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Default the Wagner bat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minibatsman View Post
please understand this is my opinion. I do not have mini bat certificate hanging on the wall. I have had other discussion's and have made comments about these bats that were wrong. this is why I asked you to bring the bat up for open discussion.
this series of seven decals was purchased by H&S after the world series in 1914. H&S bats are 1915 your decal was applied by H&B in 1916.
This is my opinion about the Wagner bat
The Wagner decal has a white line to the bottom left. this isn't correct.

This will be controversial auction houses continuously call decal bats salesman samples. they are wrong. these bats could be bought from a catalog in 1914.
I am still researching 1916 to 1929 so I wont comment on these years.
from 1930 to 48 . you could get one with 15 to 35 cents worth of stamps. guess they needed stamps?. to mail these bats?.
this changed around 1948 when H&B actually wanted 35 cents.

I believe this Wagner bat is a salesman sample. that found a decal. if and I say if. the Wagner decal is a 1915 decal. I am not convinced. the bat just doesn't look right to me?.

Early salesman samples are 14 inches and would have a model number like 125 in center brand with no players name on it.
Latter samples are 22 inches and have no reference to any model. and are on lower grade wood.


I don't doubt a salesman could have carried one. I have seen some so called pouches that auction houses claimed belonged to a salesman. the pouch didn't fit the bat.

At first I didn't like the Jackson bat. the owner changed my opinion. I believe the Wagner deserves the same chance. please discuss this.

Last edited by minibatsman; 04-11-2017 at 01:01 PM.
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  #18  
Old 04-11-2017, 11:55 AM
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Great Bats!

But why do I see Hopper from "A Bugs Life" every time I look at the blacklight photo? It's really creeping me out!
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  #19  
Old 04-11-2017, 01:51 PM
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Wagner is no earlier than 1920. And I still have concerns about the decal
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  #20  
Old 04-11-2017, 04:42 PM
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I have a 12" Burnished Finish mini with a Burnished Finish decal that I think could very well be a Salesman Sample. I have to think that Salesman Sample bats came in different lengths depending on the year and the bat they advertised.
Mike
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  #21  
Old 04-11-2017, 11:35 PM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
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Default salesman sample

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Originally Posted by cliftons8 View Post
I have a 12" Burnished Finish mini with a Burnished Finish decal that I think could very well be a Salesman Sample. I have to think that Salesman Sample bats came in different lengths depending on the year and the bat they advertised.
Mike
As I said I have no doubt a salesman could have carried one. I would believe they would carry as many items as they could to make a sale. we discussed this on this site a year ago. the blue burnished decal bat is one of the seven decals purchased by H&S from P&F after the 1914 world series. we no this from the Gowdy decal. there are catalogs from 1914/15 and 16 that offer mini decal bats for sale. for a couple bucks you could get a dozen. in 1915/16 the Burnished with the other decals we are discussing could be bought from a catalog.
A salesman sample they made stoves, ice boxes you name a item they made them. but they weren't offered for sale in catalog's.
Auction houses have listed these bats as salesman samples for years. my opinion they are wrong.
we can prove a 12 inch stove is a sample. we cant prove your bat is?. it could be. start a discussion.
I agree mini bats come in many sizes. I base my opinion on the size of samples by the majority of blank barrel bats I have seen.
H&S and H&B made full size bats. these mini bats came from the left over material of the 48 inch billets?. I think. prior to 1929?.
after the 30s these bats became common.no brand companies tried making just mini bats. 30s world series bats. cheep wood available daily on ebay
In the 40s H&B turned these mini,s into a business by themselves. they would mail your favorite player to your house.
I have spent years trying to date and figure these bats out. sometimes I am asked to give my opinion. right or wrong I have one.
can you post a photo of the bat?.

Last edited by minibatsman; 04-12-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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  #22  
Old 04-12-2017, 08:33 PM
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The Burnished Finish decal I have is mostly red and matches the decal on the full size bat I have. Both have a J. F. Hillerich and Son Co center brand. The mini has the number 42 in the center brand while the full size has a 40 B. I think this would date both bats to pre 1916 prior to Hillerich and Bradsby??? Pictures to follow on the mini.
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  #23  
Old 04-12-2017, 08:46 PM
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  #24  
Old 04-12-2017, 09:52 PM
murphusa murphusa is offline
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I have always believed that the term "salesman sample" was made up by the hobby. Mini bats were made as a souvenir and nothing more.
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  #25  
Old 04-13-2017, 02:14 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
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Default not a salesman sample

How many times do you think this near perfect bat was shown to anyone. not many. it wasn't handed around to the local store keepers. it came from the factory and was put in a drawer for 100 years. it has the usual scuffs from being 100 years old. just handling these bats in a controlled environment.
will cause the minor damage that your bat shows.
I have never seen this bat nice bat. is there a decal makers mark on the decal.

Last edited by minibatsman; 04-13-2017 at 01:23 PM.
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2017, 09:15 AM
minibatsman minibatsman is offline
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Default Wagner mini decal bat.

This bat is a 12 inch Wagner decal bat. probably 1915?.
there is no center brand. I don't like this bat. I don't hate it. I just wish it had a center brand.
I have no doubt this bat it is a original.1915/16 decal bat. but I also no why there isn't a center brand.

Todays technology makes it important to understand the small details about these bats.
This bat would bring $500 in todays market?.
I could make ten of them today. and how many could to tell the difference.
On your bat I use the center brand to determine its not authentic. my opinion.
as these decals are being reproduced daily. we will have to find other ways to determine there authenticity.


the center brand is just as important as the decal. it dates the bat.
The center brand on your 22 inch bat is wrong for this decal.
it is my opinion H&B did not put your Wagner decal on your bat.
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Last edited by minibatsman; 04-13-2017 at 01:16 PM.
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