T206 Black vs Brown Lenox

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

+1

I do not do 06s but do follow many of the threads more out of fascination about how complex the set is and the passion 06 collectors have for the issue but I have to say that I have seen Ted go bonkers on people for taking his thread OT but here he seems to be ok with hijacking this one. That is sorta disappointing.

What is very "DISAPPOINTING" is your blaming me for this situation ! I did not "HI-JACK" Ryan's thread ! !
The other guy did, starting with his erroneous comments in post #22. To which I corrected, and he went berserk.

Ryan (1st post) asked some questions regarding the the brown LENOX cards. I simply responded (in post #10) with my theory on how brown LENOX cards may have been printed,
and which T206 subjects can (or will be) found with brown LENOX backs. I presented this theory several years ago, and it has withstood the test of time.

Then (post #22) things started to go off the track when Pat criticized my comment about "T206 LENOX card and a T80 LENOX card in the same pack of LENOX Cigarettes".

His criticism was absolutely unwarranted since his evidence was based on T79 cards (not T80 cards). He ignored my correction, and proceeded to go off on a tangent bashing me.


Hey Chase (Lorewalker), do review the posts in this thread and it will become obvious to you (and anyone else) that I DID NOT start this situation. Your faulting me is unwarranted.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[tedzan]

OK, let's get this LENOX train back on it's mainline track. Listed here (in color) are the T206 subjects that are confirmed Brown LENOX cards.
They are interleaved with subjects that are possible Brown LENOX candidates.

Thanks to Ryan for starting this thread. And, thanks to Bryan (Post #18), we have added one new confirmed Brown LENOX....Crawford (bat).
If we continue this train rolling down the tracks, perhaps we will discover another new Brown LENOX card (or even more). There are 12 more
possible subjects.

Hey guys, take a good close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection


CONFIRMED (25 subjects)......... and, additional possible Candidates that eventually may be confirmed.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)

Lajoie (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)
Tinker (bat off shoulder)

Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Maculay1979]

HA has this listed as brown. Can we confirm it is Brown and not Black?

[Maculay1979]

Originally Posted by Jobu

This is not my card, but it looks like it is unconfirmed. PSA doesn't call it brown, but I think it is.

From the prior post it looks like this same card was relabeled as black with PSA

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Maculay1979

HA has this listed as brown. Can we confirm it is Brown and not Black?

I need to see it in hand, but I would bet heavy the BVG is a BLACK Lenox. The PSA one, which I bought last night, is almost certainly brown and PSA messed it up. Compare to the tinker brown Lenox I bought (I also own 7-8 other browns). PSA messes up all the time and this is one of those cases; it will eventually be reholdered properly by SGC. What surprises me is the Heritage description calling the BVG brown.

Ted, you can put the Tinker into the confirmed list

[tedzan]

Ryan

Your request regarding Tinker is done, Here's the new updated Brown LENOX checklist......

Listed here (in brown color) are the T206 subjects that have been confirmed with Brown LENOX backs. They are interleaved with subjects (in
black color) that are possible Brown LENOX candidates.

Let's continue this train rolling down the tracks, perhaps we will discover another new Brown LENOX card (or even more). There are 11 more
possible subjects.

Hey guys, take a good close look at your LENOX cards. You may be surprised to find a Brown LENOX hiding in your T206 collection


CONFIRMED (26 Brown LENOX subjects)......... and, additional possible Candidates that eventually may be confirmed.

Berger

Bradley (bat)
Burch (fielding)
Chase (trophy)
Cobb (bat off shoulder)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Jennings (one hand)

Jennings (two hands)

Lajoie (bat)
Jordan (bat)
Lake (no ball)
Latham
Leach (cap)
Leifield (bat)
Manning (pitching)
Marquard (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Merkle (throwing)

Mullin (bat)

Overall (yellow sky)

Pelty (vertical)

Pfeister (throwing)
Schlei (portrait)

Schlei (batting)
Schaefer (Washington)
Seymour (portrait)

F. Smith (Chicago & Boston)

Steinfeldt (bat)

Tinker (bat off shoulder)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)

Doc White (pitching)
Wilhelm (bat)

Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (portrait-cap)

Wiltse (pitching)



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I need to see it in hand, but I would bet heavy the BVG is a BLACK Lenox. The PSA one, which I bought last night, is almost certainly brown and PSA messed it up. Compare to the tinker brown Lenox I bought (I also own 7-8 other browns). PSA messes up all the time and this is one of those cases; it will eventually be reholdered properly by SGC. What surprises me is the Heritage description calling the BVG brown.

Ted, you can put the Tinker into the confirmed list

The BVG is definitely brown.

[Rhotchkiss]

Attachment 464741

Originally Posted by Pat R

The BVG is definitely brown.

Respectfully, I don’t agree. I put pics of the BVG and PSA up against several blacks and browns before going after the PSA one and passing on the BVG. To me, the BVG looked much more like the black backs than the browns. I then sent comparisons to folks on this site whose t206 opinion I very much respect for second opinions, all of whom agreed the PSA was brown and the BVG likely black. I think Heritage blew the description on the BVG (hardly unheard of) and PSA blew the description of the brown it encapsulated (even less unheard of). I guess we will never truly know unless/until they are in hand abs compared to each other and other blacks and browns. But here they are back to back (pun intended). The first is the psa Crawford, the second the BVG, and the third one is my Marquard black Lenox

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I see exactly one brown above.

[MVSNYC]

I agree with Ryan. I'm one of the "folks" he mentioned. I cannot imagine the BVG example being anything other than Black. And the PSA 1 looks as Brown as a tree trunk to me.

Great pick ups Ryan.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

I agree with Ryan. I'm one of the "folks" he mentioned. I cannot imagine the BVG example being anything other than Black. And the PSA 1 looks as Brown as a tree trunk to me.

Great pick ups Ryan.

+1. The BVG looks like faded black, not brown IMO.

[Pat R]

The brown Lenox aren't like the brown Old Mills they vary a lot. There are
several different shades from a brown similar to the Old Mills to a dark brown that has a purplish shade.

Chase 1.jpgChase 2.jpg


McQuillan 1.jpgMcQuillan 3.jpg


The Crawford is the darker brown that's harder to tell here it is between two black Lenox from the same auction

05.jpg

If you had it in hand and put it next to a black it would stand out more than it does in a scan.

I adjusted the saturation so it shows the difference better this is the same image as above.

05 - Copy.jpg

[Maculay1979]

That saturation definitely seems to indicate brown. Would saturation make a faded black look brown?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Maculay1979

That saturation definitely seems to indicate brown. Would saturation make a faded black look brown?

No here's the Crawford in question on the left next to a another black Lenox
that's pretty worn.

05 - Copy (2).jpg

[Rhotchkiss]

Not that this has much to do with the discussion at hand, but there are some serious oddities surrounding both cards. The fact that one is in a BVG flip, is suspect enough, but the fact this BVG card came from the David Hall collection, which means it by all right should have been in a psa flip, makes it much more suspect. Plus, the BVG flip does not mention brown, only heritage does. The Crawford I bought, which is clearly brown, resides in a mislabeled PSA flip that Hall could easily have had fixed. Also, Hall was putting together a master set, not hoarding same front/back combos. Did he really think the psa was black and the BVG brown (even though it does not say brown). Just seems odd he would have two browns, and the psa one is undoubtedly brown.

As an aside, I own a Yellow Chance portrait Carolina Brights in an SGC flip that Hall used to own, and I thought it very odd that it remaining in an SGC holder. But I am less suspect about SGC doing it’s job and the card is clearly a Carlin’s brights, not a questionable color variation…

[MVSNYC]

FWIW, that Chase w/ Trophy looks like a Black Lenox to me, even though it's labeled Brown. I suppose in hand is a different story.

[t213]

My Lenox