Would a database for PSA flips be beneficial to the hobby?

[the 'stache]

Hey guys, I know this topic is not specific to pre-war cards alone, but I think the discussion will garner the most feedback if it is presented here. So I hope you will indulge me.

I've been giving a lot of thought to some of the issues facing graded baseball cards. Since I returned to the hobby about three years ago, I've seen multiple discussions regarding the methods crooks employ trying to steal from honest enthusiasts. It's not just a matter of printing fake cards and selling them. Now there's the added wrinkle of faked cards being put into plastic, and sold as legitimate memorabilia. Now, you guys are very knowledgeable. You immediately know what to look for when making a purchase. If a card doesn't seem right, bells and whistles will go off in your heads. If a slab or flip looks off, you'll see it. But there are too many people out there that can be fooled. Parents buying cards for their children, people returning to the hobby after a long break, or new collectors will look at these listings on Ebay, and get duped.

When I first started buying cards again, seeing my first PSA graded card on Ebay amounted to an epiphany of sorts. I'd looked up on baseball reference to see what Hank Aaron's rookie year was. After finding that, I went to Ebay to see what a 1954 Topps Aaron was going for. Lo and behold, I saw that baseball cards were now being encapsulated the same way that coins were. After reading about PSA, I'd assumed that the cases would be secure, thereby assuring a buyer that the card inside was legitimate. I started putting some money aside to buy the card I wanted in a nice medium grade. I joined my first forum dedicated to sports card collecting (sportscardforum.com). A little later, when I decided I wanted to start getting into vintage cards, as well, I joined here.

I don't need to rehash the methods these unscrupulous people use to steal from us-cracking slabs and inserting fake cards, or real cards of lower quality. Fake flips, and now it appears faked slabs, are always in the back of my mind. And one thing that remains a constant source of frustration to me is the number of changes PSA's flip have gone through. I've seen discussions on the PSA boards showing the different incarnations of their flips. There have been several changes to the typography and layout of the flips. Some of the flips had lines through the zeros, more recent versions have not. The backs, too, have changed. But there's no real documentation establishing when these changes were made, and at which serial number those changes affected. To my knowledge, PSA has never come out saying "card numbers ____ to ____ employed this particular flip". And I would think that this lack of documentation could empower crooks. What's to stop them from printing an older version of the PSA flip to put in their fake slab? You can look up a serial number on PSA's site, but it will not show you a picture of the graded card in the plastic case.

Would it be at all helpful if I started working on a list of the different variations of the flip, and a breakdown of serial numbers for each flip? I'd imagine it would take some time, but once it were completed, it would be a reference going forward that could immediately help to disqualify some faked cards. I'm thinking of doing this as it would help new/returning hobbyists.

So, you tell me guys. Would this be useful, or do crooks always use the same flip "style" as the number they are faking?

Does that make sense? I apologize if I'm not doing a good job explaining what I'm trying to do. A lack of sleep + a lot of pain medications are messing with my head a bit this morning.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You may get more responses if you pose this question on the CU boards. Maybe even Joe O. himself will even chime in.

[CardTarget]

I think your problem will be that it's not Numbers X to X...

The numbers flip around a lot based on time period, card type being graded, etc.

It's not like they started at 0000001 and are now at 6364846. It moves around quite a bit.

[thehoodedcoder]

i just recently had the same thought. this is only going to do 2 things.

1. prevent the existing cards from begin capitalized on by a crook or someone looking to dump a fake card
2. give the guys who are perpetrating the fraud the exact methodolgy they need to make their fraud perfect and undetectable.

the only way to prevent the problem is to have a secret method by which no one but the company knows, to identify real and fake holders.

it has to be more digital than that. it should work much like a finger print scanner does. each card has a unique, unreproducable fingerprint like or eyeball image/pattern which is tied to a specific holder(meaning the holder itself has a unique id), and a specific flip number and of a specific card

on the holder itself, not a sticker or some other lame ass method. like freaking engraved.

you scan the holder, enter the flip information, their site does all of the decoding and verification.

by default the holder should reside in someones collection. period. the grading companies need to work together to properly decommission cross over slabs. should be able to scan each other's flips and then automatically send the other company a report. so that all populations are known and all card are accounted for. all of you guys that crack slabs are opening points and places where someone can make a flip with your old number on it. especially if you are taking a picture of yourself doing it, then publically posting it to this forum. right?

then to top it all off, when people enter/scan validate a holder/flip it will do a check to see how many times that holder has been scanned, by who, from where and start sounding off alerts with published information surrounding potential bad/fraudulant cards flips....proactively looking for x number of people scanned this holder in x number of weeks. or this guy scanned this holder 10 times in one day, why is he doing that? this guy scanned 30 fails in one day, is he trying to manufacture a replica? and then you take that information and you make a page on your site about any potential hot zones for fraud.

hey...look out for this type of card this week.

right? that is how you solve a freaking problem.

kevin

[doug.goodman]

You graded guys crack me up.

I think that some of you honestly think that the companies (some call them TPG, I prefer to call them "people who get paid for their opinions"), actually care about their customers on any level.

They care about the same thing that ebay cares about : their profit.

There are many things that logic tells you could. or should, be done to make what they do better for the customer, but logic, and care for the customer, are way, way, way down their list of concerns.

Because fraud on ebay tend to make money for ebay, they don't put much effort into getting rid of it.

Similarly, the people who get paid for their opinions have been giving opinions based on smoke and mirrors (remember that first card graded by that company mentioned in the title of this thread, the trimmed one?) ever since the beginning.

But I could be wrong,
Doug

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

You graded guys crack me up.

I think that some of you honestly think that the companies (some call them TPG, I prefer to call them "people who get paid for their opinions"), actually care about their customers on any level.

They care about the same thing that ebay cares about : their profit.

There are many things that logic tells you could. or should, be done to make what they do better for the customer, but logic, and care for the customer, are way, way, way down their list of concerns.

Because fraud on ebay tend to make money for ebay, they don't put much effort into getting rid of it.

Similarly, the people who get paid for their opinions have been giving opinions based on smoke and mirrors (remember that first card graded by that company mentioned in the title of this thread, the trimmed one?) ever since the beginning.

But I could be wrong,
Doug

spot on!

[the 'stache]

Doug, I'm not really a "graded card guy". As somebody that is new to vintage and pre-war, the graded cards I'd be getting would help me develop my eye, and at the same time, protect my cards until I've learned to store them properly. As my knowledge and comfort level in dealing with older cards increases, I will be less reliant on other people's opinions. Hell, I'll probably start cracking out the ones I have that are graded. Right now though, you could give me two cards out of their slabs, and tell me one was a PSA 5, the other a PSA 6, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell which was which.

I'm a kid learning to ride a bike. You and the majority of Net 54 members can ride around without even having to think about it, hopping up on the handlebars, doing tricks. I on the other hand have to learn the basics, not so I don't fall, but so I don't get burned spending $500 on a worthless piece of cardboard.

This idea for identifying the ranges of serial numbers as they apply to specific flips is meant to help protect people that are not at the same level of fluency you are. Maybe the list wouldn't end up being that useful. But if a forum member were able to look at the list once in a while, and immediately disqualify a fake because the serial number and flip didn't match, it might be worthwhile.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Doug, I'm not really a "graded card guy". As somebody that is new to vintage and pre-war, the graded cards I'd be getting would help me develop my eye, and at the same time, protect my cards until I've learned to store them properly. As my knowledge and comfort level in dealing with older cards increases, I will be less reliant on other people's opinions. Hell, I'll probably start cracking out the ones I have that are graded. Right now though, you could give me two cards out of their slabs, and tell me one was a PSA 5, the other a PSA 6, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell which was which.

I'm a kid learning to ride a bike. You and the majority of Net 54 members can ride around without even having to think about it, hopping up on the handlebars, doing tricks. I on the other hand have to learn the basics, not so I don't fall, but so I don't get burned spending $500 on a worthless piece of cardboard.

This idea for identifying the ranges of serial numbers as they apply to specific flips is meant to help protect people that are not at the same level of fluency you are. Maybe the list wouldn't end up being that useful. But if a forum member were able to look at the list once in a while, and immediately disqualify a fake because the serial number and flip didn't match, it might be worthwhile.

You missed my point.

My point is that the companies that would need to provide these services and / or information DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU OR YOUR CARDS except for how you and your cards are connected to your wallet when it comes to paying their fees.

And, I'm just a roadie for rock bands, I have over the last 40ish years of collecting learned how to get back on the bike after I fall off, but I'm not a guy who is in the mix when multi-thousand dollar cards are on the market.The rockstars may make lots of money, but they don't pay much of it to my kind.

Also, if you took those hypothetical PSA 5 and 6 cards and gave them back to the guy who got paid for his opinion, MY OPINION is that there is a 50 / 50 chance that he wouldn't be able to tell them apart, either.

Spending any money on opinions, is a waste. Go to card shows, go to card shops, hangout in chat rooms, read blogs, all of the info you need is readily available, and some of us old guys, They are all worthless pieces of cardboard, some of them just cost more than others.

The key to all of this is TO HAVE FUN.

If you study hard, and learn to be patient, you hopefully won't get burned when you spend $500 on a card. Like I did when I bought that Ryan rookie from the antique store around the corner from the Bayou Club in DC. Was it the smartest buy I ever made, definitely not, but it sure was a cool card, and it still looks nice (enough for me) in my 68 set.

Doug "never had the ability to grow enough facial hair for a real 'stache" Goodman

[timzcardz]

FYI, here's a thread on the flip variations.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=120512

[whitehse]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You may get more responses if you pose this question on the CU boards. Maybe even Joe O. himself will even chime in.

The only thing that will happen on the CU boards if this was posted there is a very quick and swift death to that thread. There is no way they would let a thread such as this survive on their boards. It would probably also result in a CU board vacation for the OP as well.

[the 'stache]

That thread is helpful, though some of the pictures have disappeared (maybe they were linked in a photobucket account, and deleted?). I do know there has been at least one discussion on the CU boards about the PSA flips that was not deleted or closed. I refer to it from time to time:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...hreadid=846031

Doug,

Respectfully, I did not miss your point. I wouldn't be asking a third party to compile this information. This is something I'd take up on my own. I spend a lot of time looking at cards in auction catalogs, on Ebay, comc.com, private collections, etc. Once I've confirmed the number of flips that have been used, it should just be a process of creating a list of serial numbers, and documenting which graded cards were issues with which flip.

If I see a PSA graded card with a serial number of 6122122, and another with serial number 7122122 (both employing the same flip style), then I can reasonably assume all cards within those numbers use the same flip. It would just take some time and patience on my part.