Who is the greatest player of all time by position?

[Rad_Hazard]

Hey all,

I wanted to create this thread as a separate thread to the "Who is the greatest player of all time?" thread. To me this is the way to do it and it makes a lot more sense. With that being said, here is my greatest 9...

P - Cy Young
C - Josh Gibson
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Mike Schmidt
LF - Ted Williams
CF - Willie Mays
RF - Babe Ruth

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Hey all,

I wanted to create this thread as a separate thread to the "Who is the greatest player of all time?" thread. To me this is the way to do it and it makes a lot more sense. With that being said, here is my greatest 9...

P - Cy Young
C - Josh Gibson
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Honus Wagner
3B - Mike Schmidt
LF - Ted Williams
CF - Willie Mays
RF - Babe Ruth

Replace Cy with Walter and I could go along with this.

[G1911]

SP - Cy Young
SP - Walter Johnson
SP - Lefty Grove
SP - Roger Clemens
RP - Mariano Rivera
RP - Hoyt Wilhelm
C - Yogi Berra
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Eddie Collins
3B - Mike Schmidt
SS - Honus Wagner
LF - Barry Bonds
CF -Mays or Cobb depending on the day of the week
RF - Babe Ruth

I don’t think we can quantify greatness in any meaningful way beyond looking at the output of their careers. Josh Gibson, Satchell Paige, they may well be deserving but we cannot know; they have very brief recorded “major league” careers, and talent was not so centered in those leagues as it was in the NL and AL.

RP, C and 3B are the weakest positions most ripe for someone to take over the slots.

Disclaimer: I am cognizant that this is a matter of opinion and not true/false dichotomy, because greatest is a imprecise word we are not defining narrowly by which we could arrive at a total answer within the set parameters. It’s just fun.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Replace Cy with Walter and I could go along with this.

I would definitely go with Cy over Walter. Cy dominated 2 different generations. Walter is a great #2 though.

As for catcher we if we want to do solely based on MLB experience I would probably go with Piazza.

RP is easy as Rivera is the GOAT and it’s not close.

[isiahfan]

LHP - Randy Johnson
RHP - Roger Clemens
RP - Mariano Rivera
C - Ivan Rodriguez
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
SS - Alex Rodriguez
3B - Mike Schmidt
LF - Ty Cobb
CF - Hank Aaron
RF - Babe Ruth

Notes:

No love for ARod??? You can plug him into either SS or 3B but I think the case at SS is a no-brainer

C - Gibson didn't play in MLB so hard to compare...Bench had more pop and good D, but IRod had 2800 hits, ~.300 avergae...300+ HR...a great Defensive C and also had wheels...similar WAR but Bench played on some ridiculous teams

Love Alomar at 2B...great defensive player and had speed...also good on offese but Hornsby's numbers are heard to ignore

OF - Hard to determine...do you want all sluggers on your team?....Avg?...DEF? a true leadoff hitter (Rickey anyone?)...I went with guys that were best against competition of their eras....Rith gets the eay nod...nobody did anything close to what he did in his era Mantle/Aaron/Mays/Williams....all guys that have an edge over the other ....but all played in the same era for the most part...did any of them really rise above?...Does longevity get taken into account (please see IRod over Bench above...I believe so)?

LHP - Went with Randy...I like Kershaw...felt Carlton was great...as was Spahn....Koufax to me had a great small (See Pedro) box of years (outside of those 4-5 was really quite average)....But seeing Randy pitch...was scary.

RHP - Tough call....Didn't see Johnson...stats deflated due to competion I feel...maybe? Clemens longevity and consistency in a live-ball era wins out IMO

[rats60]

RHP Walter Johnson
LHP Sandy Koufax
C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Honus Wagner
LF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
RF Roberto Clemente

[Rad_Hazard]

Ok, it looks like we are all adding a RHP/LHP split so I'll change mine to reflect that as well as adding a catcher with MLB experience:

RHP - Cy Young - GOAT, his records will never be touched. Dominated two different eras.
LHP - Randy Johnson - I think this one is clear cut.
RP - Mariano Rivera - Not. Even. Close.
C - Mike Piazza - I like him more than Pudge or Bench, he's the greatest hitting catcher of all time.
1B - Lou Gehrig - This one is clear cut.
2B - Rogers Hornsby - This one is clear cut.
SS - Honus Wagner - This one is clear cut.
3B - Mike Schmidt - I would love to say Brett, but it's Schmidt all the way.
LF - Ted Williams - I can see swapping here, but only for Bonds. Cobb can't go here since he was a CF almost exclusively and Mays is better there.
CF - Willie Mays - This one is clear cut.
RF - Babe Ruth - This one is clear cut.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by rats60

RHP Walter Johnson
LHP Sandy Koufax
C Johnny Bench
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B Mike Schmidt
SS Honus Wagner
LF Babe Ruth
CF Willie Mays
RF Roberto Clemente

Great list

[sthoemke]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Ok, it looks like we are all adding a RHP/LHP split so I'll change mine to reflect that as well as adding a catcher with MLB experience:

RHP - Cy Young - GOAT, his records will never be touched. Dominated two different eras.
LHP - Randy Johnson - I think this one is clear cut.
RP - Mariano Rivera - Not. Even. Close.
C - Mike Piazza - I like him more than Pudge or Bench, he's the greatest hitting catcher of all time.
1B - Lou Gehrig - This one is clear cut.
2B - Rogers Hornsby - This one is clear cut.
SS - Honus Wagner - This one is clear cut.
3B - Mike Schmidt - I would love to say Brett, but it's Schmidt all the way.
LF - Ted Williams - I can see swapping here, but only for Bonds. Cobb can't go here since he was a CF almost exclusively and Mays is better there.
CF - Willie Mays - This one is clear cut.
RF - Babe Ruth - This one is clear cut.

How about adding a "bat-right/throws-left" split, and Rickey Henderson can take that spot in left field.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by sthoemke

How about adding a "bat-right/throws-left" split, and Rickey Henderson can take that spot in left field.

Haha! I love it! Rickey was so amazing to watch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Ok, it looks like we are all adding a RHP/LHP split so I'll change mine to reflect that as well as adding a catcher with MLB experience:

RHP - Cy Young - GOAT, his records will never be touched. Dominated two different eras.
LHP - Randy Johnson - I think this one is clear cut.
RP - Mariano Rivera - Not. Even. Close.
C - Mike Piazza - I like him more than Pudge or Bench, he's the greatest hitting catcher of all time.
1B - Lou Gehrig - This one is clear cut.
2B - Rogers Hornsby - This one is clear cut.
SS - Honus Wagner - This one is clear cut.
3B - Mike Schmidt - I would love to say Brett, but it's Schmidt all the way.
LF - Ted Williams - I can see swapping here, but only for Bonds. Cobb can't go here since he was a CF almost exclusively and Mays is better there.
CF - Willie Mays - This one is clear cut.
RF - Babe Ruth - This one is clear cut.

I like this list, but W Johnson or Clemens over Young, and Bench over Piazza.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like this list, but W Johnson or Clemens over Young, and Bench over Piazza.

I see the arguments for bench and piazza and as a Mets fan I want piazza (if not carter). That said, I give it to yogi all day. His war is oddly low though - doesn’t make sense to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I see the arguments for bench and piazza and as a Mets fan I want piazza (if not carter). That said, I give it to yogi all day. His war is oddly low though - doesn’t make sense to me.

Carter does great by WAR if I recall, it seemed to overrate him and underrate Yogi a bit. I would rank Bench and Yogi 1-2.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like this list, but W Johnson or Clemens over Young, and Bench over Piazza.

Thanks! I just can’t get over Cy’s records which is why I think he is my RHP. Also I’m a big Mets fan so that does come in to play with Piazza, but his offense just dwarfs other catchers so that’s how I rationalize the pick.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Thanks! I just can’t get over Cy’s records which is why I think he is my RHP. Also I’m a big Mets fan so that does come in to play with Piazza, but his offense just dwarfs other catchers so that’s how I rationalize the pick.

Walter Johnson's metrics dwarf Cys.

Bench, Piazza and Fisk are virtually tied in oWAR, Piazza's offense does not dwarf Bench's.

[isiahfan]

Not having ARod on your lists....I will happily take him over just about any infielder let alone SS or 3B

tsk tsk

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Walter Johnson's metrics dwarf Cys.

Bench, Piazza and Fisk are virtually tied in oWAR, Piazza's offense does not dwarf Bench's.

You are absolutely right about the Big Train, I formally change Cy to Walter.

As for catchers though, I stand by my Piazza choice, his offensive stats don't exactly dwarf Bench's, but they are quite a bit better. Piazza's slash line destroys that of Bench. Piazza was easily the greatest hitting catcher of all time, so it comes down to the glove.

Here are the offensive and defensive stats and Bench shines in throwing runners out and Total Fielding Runs Above Average (Piazza's is terrible), but Piazza beats them all in range (he was underrated on defense, although not exactly great). Very interesting stuff. I would definitely put Piazza as the GOAT at the catching position, especially after seeing these comparisons.

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's a reasonable choice. But given the importance of defense at that position, I would give the advantage to Bench, and I might even take I Rod Berra and Carter over him.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Not having ARod on your lists....I will happily take him over just about any infielder let alone SS or 3B

tsk tsk

Wagner fares better than Rodriguez in the modern metrics (like WAR, OPS+), even with them being designed around the modern game. Also, he wasn’t on performance enhancing drugs his whole career. I have a hard time taking Rodriguez over him when his drug adjusted totals are pretty close but not even better than Wagner who did it honestly.

If you put Rodriguez at 3B he probably comes out #1 if you ignore the steroids.

I see why one would pick him, but I don’t see why it’s surprising others don’t.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

You are absolutely right about the Big Train, I formally change Cy to Walter.

As for catchers though, I stand by my Piazza choice, his offensive stats don't exactly dwarf Bench's, but they are quite a bit better. Piazza's slash line destroys that of Bench. Piazza was easily the greatest hitting catcher of all time, so it comes down to the glove.

Here are the offensive and defensive stats and Bench shines in throwing runners out and Total Fielding Runs Above Average (Piazza's is terrible), but Piazza beats them all in range (he was underrated on defense, although not exactly great). Very interesting stuff. I would definitely put Piazza as the GOAT at the catching position, especially after seeing these comparisons.

Yeah, I agree Piazza was a bit underrated on defense. He actually had a career positive defensive WAR (albeit slightly)

But overall, I think it's hard to go with anyone but Johnny Bench or Josh Gibson.

I do want to give a shout out to Campanella though. I think his peak was really strong, and he is the All-Time leader in % throwing out would-be base-stealers and an unbelievable 57.4%

[Mark17]

It only makes sense that from 1900 through 1950, there would've been at least one black player who merits inclusion on the list. From what I have read, Josh Gibson was considered perhaps the best, by his peers. I have to have him as my catcher based on that logic.

People want to discount him due to lack of accurate statistics, inferior competition, or whatever. But if he was the best of his contemporaries, and his contemporaries (blacks) as a group, were comparable to other ballplayers, then I don't think the stat thing is enough to exclude him.

Put another way, if we made a list of the top 100 players since 1950, I'll bet about half would be black. I'm thinking, that ratio was probably less, but not by much, during the 1900-1950 era.

So I'm thinking Red nailed it with the first post in this thread, after swapping in Walter.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Mark17

It only makes sense that from 1900 through 1950, there would've been at least one black player who merits inclusion on the list. From what I have read, Josh Gibson was considered perhaps the best, by his peers. I have to have him as my catcher based on that logic.

People want to discount him due to lack of accurate statistics, inferior competition, or whatever. But if he was the best of his contemporaries, and his contemporaries (blacks) as a group, were comparable to other ballplayers, then I don't think the stat thing is enough to exclude him.

Put another way, if we made a list of the top 100 players since 1950, I'll bet about half would be black. I'm thinking, that ratio was probably less, but not by much, during the 1900-1950 era.

So I'm thinking Red nailed it with the first post in this thread, after swapping in Walter.

Here is an interesting article where ESPN ranked the Top Catchers of All time. They have Josh Gibson #2 and Bench #1.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/pag...-catchers-ever

After Reading it I would actually agree that Josh Gibson should be #1 All Time at Catcher

[Carter08]

All due respect for Schmidt and Brett and others but the position that surprises me the most is third base. Sort of surprised there hasn’t been a truly dominant winner for that position. I think of A Rod as more of a SS and also a cheater. Could be that third base is very dependent on defense so you can’t just throw a good hitter over there and hope for the best.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Carter08

All due respect for Schmidt and Brett and others but the position that surprises me the most is third base. Sort of surprised there hasn’t been a truly dominant winner for that position. I think of A Rod as more of a SS and also a cheater. Could be that third base is very dependent on defense so you can’t just throw a good hitter over there and hope for the best.

Schmidt won 10 Gold Gloves in his career.

[mrreality68]

Or for third base if you want a great 3rd baseman that also won 16 Gold Gloves how about Brooks Robinson

18-time All-Star (1960-74*), 16 Gold Gloves ('60-75), MVP (1964), All-Star MVP ('66), World Series MVP ('70), Hall of Fame ('83)

*Played in two All-Star Games in '60, '61 and '62

Championships
2 -- Baltimore (1966, '70)

Career stats
.267/.322/.401, OPS -- .723, Hits -- 2,848, HRs -- 268, RBIs -- 1,357


Cannot go wrong with him if you want to skip over Schmidt

[clydepepper]

My Picks:

P-Walter Johnson
C-Johnny Bench
1B-Lou Gehrig
2B-Joe Morgan
SS-Honus Wagner
3B-Mike Schmidt
OF-Willie Mays
OF-Babe Ruth
OF-Ty Cobb



.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Or for third base if you want a great 3rd baseman that also won 16 Gold Gloves how about Brooks Robinson

18-time All-Star (1960-74*), 16 Gold Gloves ('60-75), MVP (1964), All-Star MVP ('66), World Series MVP ('70), Hall of Fame ('83)

*Played in two All-Star Games in '60, '61 and '62

Championships
2 -- Baltimore (1966, '70)

Career stats
.267/.322/.401, OPS -- .723, Hits -- 2,848, HRs -- 268, RBIs -- 1,357


Cannot go wrong with him if you want to skip over Schmidt

Agreed. I’m just surprised there hasn’t been a true one ring to rule them all player at 3rd. Love Brooksie by the way.

[Eric72]

1. Willie Mays, CF
2. Honus Wagner, SS
3. Babe Ruth, LF
4. Hank Aaron, RF
5. Lou Gehrig, 1B
6. Rogers Hornsby, 2B
7. Mike Schmidt, 3B
8. Yogi Berra, C
9. Walter Johnson, P

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Or for third base if you want a great 3rd baseman that also won 16 Gold Gloves how about Brooks Robinson

18-time All-Star (1960-74*), 16 Gold Gloves ('60-75), MVP (1964), All-Star MVP ('66), World Series MVP ('70), Hall of Fame ('83)

*Played in two All-Star Games in '60, '61 and '62

Championships
2 -- Baltimore (1966, '70)

Career stats
.267/.322/.401, OPS -- .723, Hits -- 2,848, HRs -- 268, RBIs -- 1,357


Cannot go wrong with him if you want to skip over Schmidt

I'm not sure why you would take Brooks Robinson over Schmidt. Schmidt's numbers are better in almost every category except for gold gloves and hits, and Robinson had around 1600 more plate appearances to get to his hit total while having the same career batting average and a much lower OBP and OPS. Schmidt is also way ahead in WAR and had 3 MVPs and a WS MVP in 1980.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I'm not sure why you would take Brooks Robinson over Schmidt. Schmidt's numbers are better in almost every category except for gold gloves and hits, and Robinson had around 1600 more plate appearances to get to his hit total while having the same career batting average and a much lower OBP and OPS. Schmidt is also way ahead in WAR and had 3 MVPs and a WS MVP in 1980.

Hi

I did not pick Robinson over Schmidt. One someone said that defense was so important and it is not all about offense first I said Schmidt had ten gold gloves and then I said if you did not want Schmidt then Robinson would be a good pick based on them wanting a combo of offense and defense if Schmidt did not meet their criteria.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I'm not sure why you would take Brooks Robinson over Schmidt. Schmidt's numbers are better in almost every category except for gold gloves and hits, and Robinson had around 1600 more plate appearances to get to his hit total while having the same career batting average and a much lower OBP and OPS. Schmidt is also way ahead in WAR and had 3 MVPs and a WS MVP in 1980.

It surprises me how many people either overlook, or are unaware of, Schmidt's 10 Gold Gloves.

[Rad_Hazard]

Originally Posted by Eric72

It surprises me how many people either overlook, or are unaware of, Schmidt's 10 Gold Gloves.

Count me as one of them. I'm actually a bit surprised on how far ahead Schmidt is of the competition. He's not "blowing them out of the water", but he's the clear pick for GOAT 3B.

[Carter08]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Hi

I did not pick Robinson over Schmidt. One someone said that defense was so important and it is not all about offense first I said Schmidt had ten gold gloves and then I said if you did not want Schmidt then Robinson would be a good pick based on them wanting a combo of offense and defense if Schmidt did not meet their criteria.

I didn’t say defense was so important in any argument against Schmidt and he’s my pick. What I was saying is that it’s surprising to me that third base has not produced a true icon of the game like OF or 1B or 2B. Schmidt is a ridiculously good player but he’s not a Ted Williams or Hornsby level guy in my humble opinion.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Rad_Hazard

Count me as one of them. I'm actually a bit surprised on how far ahead Schmidt is of the competition. He's not "blowing them out of the water", but he's the clear pick for GOAT 3B.

I agree. He’s the clear pick, but also possibly the weakest player on the all-time team. C and 3B seem to be the weakest positions that it would be easiest for a player to come along and dethrone. Boggs, Brett, Baker, Brooks, Mathews, Chipper, all are well below Schmidt. 3B skews pretty modern.

[orioles70]

It seems that when the inevitable happens to Mays (we are all day to day) that Schmidt will be considered the greatest living baseball player.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[ClementeFanOh]

Orioles70- Hmm... Johnny Bench, Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan would have a
place in that conversation (and I'm likely forgetting others, believe me

Trent King

[orioles70]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Orioles70- Hmm... Johnny Bench, Sandy Koufax, Nolan Ryan would have a

place in that conversation (and I'm likely forgetting others, believe me



Trent King

Judging by this thread...Schmidt is the predominant living player other than Mays mentioned as the greatest ever st their position... I don't think Koufax and Ryan have even been mentioned...Bench can certainly be in the conversation as greatest living after Mays passes but I would still give the nod to Schmidt when the time comes

Greatest Living Player
Opinion Addendum

I went to the Hall of Fame website and scrolled thru the list of all the living Hall of Famers for the next greatest living baseball player after Mays.

The only players other than Schmidt that made me pause in my scrolling thru the Hall of Famers for greatest living player were Bench, Jackson, Henderson and Griffey...arguments can be made for all and I readily admit my bias towards position players as I think it would be tough to have a pitcher named as the greatest living player...I did not consider any non Hall of Famers such as Rose and Bonds

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[ClementeFanOh]

Orioles70 (John)- there's no doubt Mike Schmidt is a good candidate. As
far as others on the thread not naming Koufax/Ryan, I guess my reply is
this is why we comment- to bring up possibilities. Ryan and Koufax are
larger than life HOF players who we can identify by their first names alone,
so including them in a group of half dozen isn't a stretch by any means.

Trent King

[G1911]

I think the greatest living player, after Mays inevitably passes, would be Bonds, by a fairly large margin. Not the fan favorite or most popular or most virtuous, but the best.

[packs]

How about after Bonds? Like you said it’s hard for people to settle on him. Griffey?

I’m not going to suggest Arod for the same issues as Bonds.

Saw Rickey’s name tossed out there. That’s a good pick too.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

How about after Bonds? Like you said it’s hard for people to settle on him. Griffey?

I’m not going to suggest Arod for the same issues as Bonds.

Saw Rickey’s name tossed out there. That’s a good pick too.

Rickey is a good one. WAR has him as the highest living after Bonds, Mays and ARod. I think lead off guys are usually undervalued in favor of the sluggers. He might well deserve to be fourth.

Pujols, measured by his career and not the last few years, is pretty close. He fared better than Griffey and Frank Thomas overall, who had a very similar absolutely amazing first half and then a very long decline.

I think most people won’t pick a pitcher, but the best of them are probably more valuable than the next crop of hitters. Folks should really just be okay with their personal favorite and the best being different, but that’s my opinion. Jeter, Ripken, and other crowd favorites are not made better nor worse by their fan base.

Trout, if he recovers, could in several years be the best living player and active at the same time. Which I guess is normal, Mays was, Ruth was before him. For a time Cobb was probably the greatest living player, got supplanted by Ruth, and was again the greatest living player from Ruth’s death until he died in 1961. I’m not sure who the greatest living player was between Cobb’s second stint and Mays’, Mays was not the best as early as 1962. Ted Williams for a few years, probably. I believe Cobb is the only repeat player worthy of this honor

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Carter08

I didn’t say defense was so important in any argument against Schmidt and he’s my pick. What I was saying is that it’s surprising to me that third base has not produced a true icon of the game like OF or 1B or 2B. Schmidt is a ridiculously good player but he’s not a Ted Williams or Hornsby level guy in my humble opinion.

understood I misunderstood and you are 100% right on your point.

But on the flip side it was good for me to misunderstand it made me dig into third baseman and I learned alot more.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Orioles70 (John)- there's no doubt Mike Schmidt is a good candidate. As
far as others on the thread not naming Koufax/Ryan, I guess my reply is
this is why we comment- to bring up possibilities. Ryan and Koufax are
larger than life HOF players who we can identify by their first names alone,
so including them in a group of half dozen isn't a stretch by any means.

Trent King

My list would be
Honus Wagner to
Ty Cobb to
Babe Ruth to
Ted Williams to
Willie Mays

Next in line would be Sandy Koufax, then by age Mike Schmidt, Albert Pujols and Mike Trout.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by G1911

I agree. He’s the clear pick, but also possibly the weakest player on the all-time team. C and 3B seem to be the weakest positions that it would be easiest for a player to come along and dethrone. Boggs, Brett, Baker, Brooks, Mathews, Chipper, all are well below Schmidt. 3B skews pretty modern.

I agree that Schmidt is not considered to be at the same level of all-time greats like Ruth, Aaron and Mays, but I was surprised to see that he is currently 19th in WAR all time for position players with a WAR of 106.8 on Baseball Reference. Eddie Mathews is at 23rd with a WAR of 96.1.

Third base has historically been the least represented position in the HoF, and as you said, more modern players tend to be thought of as the best at the position.

[Touch'EmAll]

Growing up in the 70's, I was a huge into baseball. Johnny Bench was the man. And there also was Lou Brock - perhaps the most fun player of the decade - amazing base stealer. Brock didn't run much against Bench. Of all the catchers, he knew the odds were against him.

My dad, a Yankee fan, always touted Yogi Berra as the best.

Well, now I am leaning towards Yogi as greatest.

In 1986, Bill James ranked Berra the #1 catcher of all time in career value. In peak value he ranked Berra behind Campanella, Cochrane, & Bench. "Yogi Berra was more valuable to his teams, over the course of his career, than any other catcher. He was never as great at any moment as Bench was in his best years. But Yogi's record of sustained excellence over a period of a decade is without parallel by any catcher in the history of baseball."

Yogi was the most winningest baseball player in the history of MLB. The multiple MVP's, Near MVP's, All star games, World Series rings, have heard it said he was a walking baseball encyclopedia. I go with Yogi at catcher.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Touch'EmAll

Growing up in the 70's, I was a huge into baseball. Johnny Bench was the man. And there also was Lou Brock - perhaps the most fun player of the decade - amazing base stealer. Brock didn't run much against Bench. Of all the catchers, he knew the odds were against him.

My dad, a Yankee fan, always touted Yogi Berra as the best.

Well, now I am leaning towards Yogi as greatest.

In 1986, Bill James ranked Berra the #1 catcher of all time in career value. In peak value he ranked Berra behind Campanella, Cochrane, & Bench. "Yogi Berra was more valuable to his teams, over the course of his career, than any other catcher. He was never as great at any moment as Bench was in his best years. But Yogi's record of sustained excellence over a period of a decade is without parallel by any catcher in the history of baseball."

Yogi was the most winningest baseball player in the history of MLB. The multiple MVP's, Near MVP's, All star games, World Series rings, have heard it said he was a walking baseball encyclopedia. I go with Yogi at catcher.

Yogi's consistency is why I pick him too. Bench was incredible, every other year or so. Wins the MVP in 1970, in 1971 he has an OBP under .300. Wins the MVP in 1972, slashes .253/.345/.429 the next year, which isn't terrible but not that impressive. 1974 and 1975 he's excellent, super star seasons, and in 1976 he's just a hair over the league average. Bench has huge up and down spikes through his prime years, which the Bench argument tends to simply ignore instead of arguing that centralizing performance in certain years is more valuable to winning championships. Berra was consistently excellent, picking Berra you know what you are getting. Bench, he might be better but he might be worse too. Campanella had a similar trajectory, a lot of catchers have.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by G1911

Yogi's consistency is why I pick him too. Bench was incredible, every other year or so. Wins the MVP in 1970, in 1971 he has an OBP under .300. Wins the MVP in 1972, slashes .253/.345/.429 the next year, which isn't terrible but not that impressive. 1974 and 1975 he's excellent, super star seasons, and in 1976 he's just a hair over the league average. Bench has huge up and down spikes through his prime years, which the Bench argument tends to simply ignore instead of arguing that centralizing performance in certain years is more valuable to winning championships. Berra was consistently excellent, picking Berra you know what you are getting. Bench, he might be better but he might be worse too. Campanella had a similar trajectory, a lot of catchers have.

Bench and Berra have very similar career statistics in pretty much every hitting category. There are two main reasons why Bench is better. Berra literally never led the league in anything--no black ink (although, considering DiMaggio and Mantle were his teammates, this is not terribly surprising). Bench had some of the best years of any catcher ever, leading the league in multiple categories. Yes this also means that he had some comparatively down years, but even in those years he hit 25+ homers and managed to have a WAR of 4 or better for 12 straight years.

But the main reason Bench is better than Berra is fielding. Berra's career dWar is under 10, and Bench was close to 20. Bench was better at pretty much every facet of catching.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Bench and Berra have very similar career statistics in pretty much every hitting category. There are two main reasons why Bench is better. Berra literally never led the league in anything--no black ink (although, considering DiMaggio and Mantle were his teammates, this is not terribly surprising). Bench had some of the best years of any catcher ever, leading the league in multiple categories. Yes this also means that he had some comparatively down years, but even in those years he hit 25+ homers and managed to have a WAR of 4 or better for 12 straight years.

But the main reason Bench is better than Berra is fielding. Berra's career dWar is under 10, and Bench was close to 20. Bench was better at pretty much every facet of catching.

I think Bench was better defensively, but I am not a fan of dWar; it makes a lot of assumptions and extrapolations off of less than perfect statistics, to say the least. I think the offense version is pretty good for direct contemporaries though it has faults, but dWar I don’t find swaying. This is not to say that defense is not important; it is just much harder to quantify by the nature of its structure and I don’t find dWar to have changed this.

I’d rather have consistency over the volatility of Bench. Berra won 3 MVP’s, he had great seasons as well, but he was excellent before, in between and after them. He doesn’t have prime years where he hits in the .230’s.

I think this one is more about what one values most than a clear victory. Bench is a fine pick, but I take Berra.

[Carter08]

Berra is criminally underrated. Catcher is definitely one of the weaker positions on al all time team. I’d say it’s ripe for a true king to come along but my thought is they’d move that person to 1B before he could do it. Hoping the Mets kid coming up is at least an All Star here and there.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Gary Carter's WAR was 10 points higher than Berra. And second only to Bench. He barely factors in this discussion.