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#1
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Pardon me that this is not Pre-War... but 1948 is still pretty "vintage"... |
#2
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
SGC is not much better... |
#3
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: dennis
my first thought is that if you labeled one 1948 and one 1949 some may think there are 2 different sets.esp. considering the way they are #ed. |
#4
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Interesting point, since the 1948 "set" and the 1949 "set" would indeed be identical except for the tiny copyright date on the back. |
#5
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: leon
But I always thought the same thing.I think technically if there is a '48 then that would be the rookie...but I'm probably wrong...later |
#6
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Paul
I have heard some people suggest that ALL of the cards were issued in 1949, regardless of copyright date. Does anyone out there have a large collection of Leafs with a 1948 copyright date? If so, do any of them refer specifically to the player's performance in 1948? Do any refer just to 1947? My recollection is that all of the cards talk about the 1948 season, regardless of copyright date, but I could be wrong and I haven't seen every card. |
#7
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
As evidenced by the fact that they all have 48 statistics on the back. According to this source, anyhow. Edited to add: in which case, you better seek a declaratory judgment from a Florida court or consult the Talmud as to whether they are rookie cards or not, counsellor. |
#8
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Great information. Thanks! |
#9
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
The 1949 Leaf Satchell Paige card says: |
#10
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I can't find an image from the BACK of a 1948 Satchell Paige Leaf card. |
#11
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Jay Miller
For what its worth it appears from the images that I have seen in the catalog that all of the cards have gray cardboard backs. If this is true it would also place the cards in late 1948 at earliest. The 1948 football set was issued in two series before the completion of the 1948 season. The first series has a tan back. The second series comes with both tan and gray cardboard backs with the later coming from the back part of the print run when they switched cardboard. If the baseball set is gray backed it followed the football set. The 1949 football set is all gray backed. |
#12
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: dennis
according to the mastro may 18 2000 catalogue page 199 "psa has made a practice of labeling both the R401-1 (1948) and R401-3 (1949)issues as 1948. so there is an acc difference, for what its worth. also the card is a psa nm/mint paige but they do not show the back. |
#13
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Brian H (misunderestimated)
Also not quite vintage... Callahan Hall of Fame cards are uniformly listed as either 1950 or 1950-56 even though certain cards clearly state on the back that they are from certain years(for example 1953) and could not have been issued in 1950 as they commemorate the Hall of Fame induction of players not selected until after 1950.... This also holds true for Old Judge labeling by the way. |
#14
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: dennis
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5169696344 |
#15
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: barrysloate
My friend Ted Zanidakis, who is the world's expert on 1949 Bowman and Leaf, and who is old enough to remember having bought packs in 1949, maintains that the Leaf set is not at all a 1948 set and that all the cards were released in early 1949. Regardless of the copyright date, you could not buy them in 1948. We haven't spoken about these in many years but I'm pretty sure that was his claim regarding the release date- time can elapse between a copyright date and the time it takes to print and get the cards into the stores (imagine obtaining a copyright in Dec 1948, as an example). |
#16
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Thanks Dennis, but that is also a 1949 backed card. |
#17
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
Hal have you seen ANY cards which were issued in two versions -- i.e., one with a 48 copyright and one with a 49 copyright? |
#18
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
OK, this is getting even crazier, because I have looked all over the web and seen this: |
#19
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
Hal that makes sense as it would have seemed uneconomical to have to make up a new printing plate to print the same card with a different back. I think it is safe to assume that a card with a 1949 copyright was probably printed in 1949. What seems to be unclear is whether the cards with the 1948 copyright were issued in late 1948 or in 1949. Is your ultimate question here whether you need to buy a Leaf Paige to have his true RC? EDITED TO ADD: I just checked the SMR and for what little it is worth, they don't designate the 49B Paige as a rookie. I wonder if Beckett does. |
#20
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
It was at first... but I think we have now discovered the following facts: |
#21
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
OK, here is the scoop: |
#22
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: dennis
hal, in that mastro catalogue may 18th 2000,page 199 in the discription of the paige card they are selling....."only one other paige currently exists in a psa 8 holder and it resides in the hands of the famed collector marshall fogel.marshall claims his example has the 1948 copyright making this the only 1949 graded by psa nm to mint 8." i don't know if thats irrefutable evidence but i imagine fogel wouldn't make it up.(the 48 copyright) |
#23
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Sorry, but he will have to produce it before I believe it... since he has millions of cards and could have just been mistaken in his memory. |
#24
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
It would also seem pretty obvious, after reading this thread, that the 1948 Bowman set was printed and distributed a LOT earlier in the 1948 calendar year than the 1948 Leaf cards.... |
#25
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I sent Marshall an e-mail asking for a scan of the back of his Paige card. |
#26
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: leon
If you speak with him tell him "Lucky Luciano" said Hi....he'll know what you mean....good luck on your hunt....later |
#27
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
I found this on the web from Brian Wentz. The relevant excerpt is "The Leaf issue of Satchel Paige is considered a Rookie regardless of whether it has a copyright date of 1948 or 1949 on the reverse." The complete link is: |
#28
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Peter Thomas
I also bought the leaf cards in packs and wondered why they had different dates. It seems that they simply copyrighted some of the cards in late 48 after the 1948 season and used that date on those cards. They used the 1949 date on cards that were copyrighted in early 1949 before the 1949 season. |
#29
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
THANK YOU, Peter. |
#30
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Hal, |
#31
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Thanks Greg! |
#32
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
I think the Trial Attorney doth spin too much. Having to pick up a 48B Musial is a small price to pay for not having to shell out for a 48 Leaf Paige!! |
#33
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I just want to know as much as I can before I buy or sell anything. |
#34
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Andy Cook
One more confirmation these came out in 1949. I have one copywrited 1948 which discusses the player's performance in the 1948 World Series, so clearly not issued before late fall 1948 at a minimum. |
#35
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
"I love my Leaf Musial... and would hate to have to replace it with the ugly black and white thing." |
#36
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Because it is easier to stay on budget when the 100,000 vintage cards on Ebay do not meet my qualifications. |
#37
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
Hal c'mon that "slippery slope" argument is not terribly persuasive and you know it. Obviously there is a difference between keeping a Leaf Musial which you like and which most people would call his rookie card and the anarchy of having no focus at all. Keep the card, the 48B is (in my humble opinion) an uninteresting card even if a hypertechnical, Talmudic analysis says it is his rookie card and the Leaf isn't. |
#38
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I think the "1948" printed on the back of the card will allow me to persuade my inner self to keep the Leaf Musial and the Leaf Spahn. |
#39
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
LATEST UPDATE: |
#40
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
I never collected this set in its entirety... so I never even noticed the random "skip" numbering. |
#41
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Hal Lewis
Last chance for anyone to dispute the findings before they get forwarded to Bob Lemke and made "official." |
#42
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: PASJD
Hal it looks like you are down from a dialogue with me to a monologue. Did you ever hear back from Fogel on whether his Paige had a 48 date? I would still like to know whether any card was issued with both dates. It seems to me until we know that the data is incomplete. |
#43
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Some think that the date of card manufacture, rather than the date of its issuance, is a factor in determining rookie cards. |
#44
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: barrysloate
I think if you were a kid buying packs in 1949 you might remember simply which ones got to the stores first- Bowman or Leaf. That could really be the determining factor in determining which card is a player's rookie card. If one company released their cards weeks before the other, then that's it. Distribution might vary from city to city but clearly one company beat the other to the marketplace. I'm on vacation right now but I'll see if I can get Ted to tell me which ones he remembers first- he grew up in New Jersey, for what it's worth. |
#45
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Julie
that my '49 Bowman was either Paige's rookie, or co-rookie, since shortly after I bought it. But I'd rather have the Leaf--because it's a nicer card! (I don't have one...sniff.) |
#46
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
And others, including me, prefer a rookie card to show the players rookie picture. |
#47
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1948 Leaf question
Posted By: mcavoy
The rules on obtaining copyright have changed in recent years. I do not know the rules for 1948-1949, but if uncut sheets exist, many of these questions could be addressed. Copyright does not necessarily correspond to printing dates. Cards printed in 1949 having a 1948 copyright, should not have ever a 1949 copyright, unless different bios exist. Generally, then, the US copyright date should correspond with US publication. Back then, copyright requirements required the deposit of two (I think) copies with the copyright office, one of which would be deposited into the Library of Congress for examination by the public (and to transfer aquisition costs to copyright holders from the public). Therefore, it would not make sense for the same bio to have two copyright dates. |
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