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#1
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
Being a long time coin collector, I have always been used to seeing a premium being paid for coins with good provenance. For example a coin from the famed Eliasberg collection will sell for quite a bit more that an equal coin with no provenance. Although I do not collect comic books, I see that provenance is noted on many books: Mile High, etc. |
#2
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: leon
I think the answer is going to be "yes" for most folks. I know I will pay a small premium for a card with good provenance. I don't collect high grade in general but this card, and the ones found with it, had great provenance. I am leery of buying high grade cards without it......This from the last REA auction...(shown many times but still nice to look at) |
#3
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
Leon, |
#4
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: leon
According to Rob L there was a group of 6 of these found in a book by his consignor. Since there is no way in the world that (6) D304 Martens backed cards, in pristine condition, could be altered to get that way, I feel very comfortable that they are quite original. It wasn't any kind of large group, or hobby icon that had them, so nothing was noted on the flips. I agree that only rare, special circumstances, should get noted on flips. This really wasn't one of those, imo. regards |
#5
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Al Simeone
Hi Leon, |
#6
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: leon
We are in total agreement. I was only talking provenance with respect to high conditioned cards. I would pay a very minimal amount (maybe a few percent) to own a card by a pioneer otherwise. My comments were for high grade ones....That is where provenance is important to me....regards |
#7
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: boxingcardman
I'd pay more for a card from a well-known collection conclusively ID'd as such, condition adjusted. Burdick and Barker used to write or stamp on their cards. If you offered me a card with some anonymous back writing or Buck Barker's notes I'm going to take the one with Barker's notes. Ditto for a card with an ink stamp versus one with Burdick's stamp on it. |
#8
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Neal
I never thought that it would matter to me. I bought an SGC 88 1954 Topps Snider Lionel Carter card for two reasons: |
#9
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Al Simeone
Leon, |
#10
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I think provenance as relates to authenticity and state (condition, alteration, etc) will become more important and should. |
#11
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Al Simeone
Since we are on the topic of Provenance here is a problem I think will need addressing in the very near future. In this day of hi-tech, and knowing already that grading companies holders and flips have been and will continue to be counterfeited where does that leave Provenance? And again I will state people buy the flip (seeing the collection it came from) and not the card. Im waiting for the day and believe me it is going to happen (If not already) that some of these "prominent collection" cards are fakes. As already been shown how hard is it to make a good flip? How hard is it just to add one of these prominent collectors names to a flip stick a card in it and say "Lionel Carter collection" Might be a perfectly good card lets say a 33 goudey Gehrig for example graded a 4. Broken out of a holder then re holdered with the appropriate collection Barker,Burdick,Carter etc. So now lets say for arguement sake you own a real card (not altered, trimmed etc.) with a fake flip,as we know very hard to keep track of all this flips, and as some of you have already stated "dont mind paying 2-5x more for a card from one of these collections" Now come to find out that the card never really came from the collection to begin with so now you are stuck with a card that cost you 2 -5x what it is really worth.Where is the Provenance in that! |
#12
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: leon
Easy solution, imo. Get to know the cards yourself and buy the card and not the plastic. I have even heard grading companies say that!! regards |
#13
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: barrysloate
I'm agree with Leon. People who have been in the hobby a long time, whether collector or dealer, will begin to "know" all the famous cards that come from these legendary collections. It will not be so easy to fool them. Perhaps the beginner will be taken, but he can always get an expert opinion. |
#14
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
"As already been shown how hard is it to make a good flip? How hard is it just to add one of these prominent collectors names to a flip stick a card in it and say "Lionel Carter collection"" |
#15
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: davidcycleback
In judging a card, provenance is used in addition to physical examination. The two should supplement each other, align with each other. One can find error in the other. With a "Television set that belonged to US President Abraham Lincoln" the first half of the sentence disproves the second half. If a flip says "Grade ExMt L. Carter collection" but the card is Vg or a reprint, obviously the two don't align. Also note that most of Carter's collection (including holders and serial numbers) is color picture documented in the auction catalogs. |
#16
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Al Simeone
Barry ,Leon, |
#17
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: barrysloate
I don't think anybody should or would pay 2-5x for a card from a famous collection if it is say an E102 common in VG condition. Why pay any premium at all? |
#18
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Al Simeone
David, |
#19
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Mike
Do the graders of these companies know where the cards they are grading came from ? I thought everyone was annoymous(??) If they get a rare card are they informed it was from "Mr. Mint" etc ? Doesn't seem objective to me ? |
#20
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Duly note that provenance is not just that famous name on a PSA label. Who you buy it from is part of the provenance. As we have learned recently, there can be a difference between a PSA card from Barry Sloate and a PSA card from a Craig's List seller. Barry is part of the provenance (history of sales) and, in this example, an important part. |
#21
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
Mike, |
#22
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Dave Hornish
Don't forget non-slabbed cards like those where Buck Barker made handwritten notations on the back. I believe some pay a little extra for those. |
#23
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: barrysloate
David- it's nice of you to put my name in such company, but unless I sell a very significant card it will be long forgotten. |
#24
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Joe D.
I personally do not care much who owned a card before me. |
#25
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I was simply pointing out that the immediate seller is part of the provenance, and if buyers don't give a hoot about who they buy from ("Rob Lifson versus eBayer with 03 feeback, what's the difference? The card's got a Mr. X label"), that's a part of the provenance they will later regret not taking more seriously. |
#26
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Provenance to me matters very much. However, it is more that it comes from a legendary collector (e.g., Lionel Carter). What is equally important is that the collector pulled the card from the pack himself. Be it the '38 Goudeys or the '49 Bowmans or many other issues. Because I know the cards came directly from packs Lionel bought, I have no doubt that nothing was done to them. However, for issues he obtained from other sources, his provenance means little because who knows what the cards went through before they came to him (for example, I understand a number of his T206's are in fact trimmed). I believe that as time goes on provenance will become more and more important. More collectors will recognize the capabilities dishonest people have to alter cards. And in the process more and more cards will undergo the alteration factory line. |
#27
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Rob Dewolf
Harry's comment, "Personally, I would pay a premium for such a card mainly because I would feel comfortable that the card was totally original," made me think of two T206s below in my collection that came from Lionel Carter's collection. |
#28
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
...and to add to that, each one of these have been trimmed and a corner rebuilt. |
#29
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
Rob, |
#30
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Rob Dewolf
Kevin, |
#31
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: barrysloate
Rob- it was Don MacPherson. |
#32
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Rob Dewolf
Thanks, Barry. |
#33
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Will provenance become more important?
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
Rob, |
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