T206 prices by back, what's hot? What's not?

[RCMcKenzie]

So this is just an anecdotal thread, but it seems to me that Cycle backs are pricey all of a sudden. I'm bidding more than I think they go for, and yet, I'm like the 3rd underbidder.

Is it a thin market with 3 people on here bidding more than me? This happened with T215 and e105. I don't know where the market is. I can still pick up low pop Old Mill and Tolstoi and SC as I'm winning some of those. I guess I'm collecting what I win. If it's a T213, I go into junkyard dog mode... Any thoughts on the T206 market by back?

[Jobu]

To me it seems that the rare backs shot up in price in the period 5-15 years ago and have stayed up. As those prices got to be high, I think many got priced out and started looking for other ways to have T206 scarcity. Which has led to a growing tide over the last 5 years in the prices of the mid-tier backs and tougher combos in the more common backs. Cycles seems to get a lot of love in that group, Piedmont 42 does not.

[RCMcKenzie]

Bryan, thanks, that's what I was trying to say or ask. You said it in a clearer way. Cycle backs have grown in stature across the hobby, it's not just 3 guys going for the set at once.

I remember going to card shows 20 years ago and a dealer would have the Hindu back face up in the case instead of the player subject. Back then, Cycle backs were grouped with backs like Polar Bear and Old Mill. Today Cycle backs are considered one of the rare backs like Hindu in price...Rob

[Luke]

Things seem about the same lately. Steady realization of collectors as a whole that the mid-tier backs were/are undervalued. SC 350-460 fact 25 is still wayyyyyyyy undervalued. P42 is the only back which I'd say has declined in value over the last few years.

[Rhotchkiss]

I do not think Cycles are equivalent to Brown Hindus. Cycle 460s can be very tough (see lajoie w/ Bat, M Brown Chicago on siort, etc), and i think they may get a little more love by people collecting the back or who need it for a back run. But Cycle 350s are on par with EPDG, Tolstoi, and AB. I note that you posted two Cycle 460 backs.

I think series 460's on all backs, Sov, Cycle, AB, etc carry a premium over their 350 counterparts.

Thus, I think Cycle 460's may get a value bump. But not 350's

[RCMcKenzie]

Ryan, I agree, I mean Cycle 460. There are too many minor leaguers and too many cards for me to go after in the Cycle 350 series, although I will pick up the more well known players in this series. They used to sell for less than they do now though.
I'm trying to collect all the Cycle 460's. I have about a dozen. I went back and saw that the Pfeister that I did not bid on sold for half what the one's I did bid on, so maybe I did run them up some.

Luke, I agree on SC460-25, I grabbed this Bridwell the other day for a nice price...

[CMIZ5290]

Back prices will never, ever be like they were when David Hall was collecting....

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Luke

Things seem about the same lately. Steady realization of collectors as a whole that the mid-tier backs were/are undervalued. SC 350-460 fact 25 is still wayyyyyyyy undervalued. P42 is the only back which I'd say has declined in value over the last few years.

Luke- I agree on this back, but having said that, I have never got an ounce of premium for this back, ever...

[Rhotchkiss]

Then Bob, yes, I think Cycle 460s are experiencing a bit of a bump, especially certain combos that, like old mill, may be scarce with the 460 back. I also think there are a few guys out there chasing the back-set (also AB 460). I am not sure they generally have hit Hindu status, which I consider the king of the mid-tier backs, but they are on the ups a bit it seems. Note that the most recent Heritage auction has some tough Cycle 460 (and AB and Pied fact 42) combos along with all the BL 460s, Drums, Uzits, etc. I think that fact alone signaled that the right Cycle 460 combo “has arrived”.

[steve B]

What's weird is that I didn't think of SC 350-460 /25 as being all that tough until I joined here.
My SC 460s by factory
25 5
30 4
42 2
42OP 6

The 42 OPs weren't an accident, I like them and briefly would choose them over a similar card unless a tougher back was available.

The 25s were totally an accident.

[RCMcKenzie]

From T206Resource's back scarcity list...

11 Carolina Brights
12 P460-42
13 AB460
14 Hindu brown
15 AB 350 NF
16 Sov 460
17 Cycle 460
18 Tolstoi
19 SC460-25
20 EPDG

From this list, the one's that I think are lagging behind in price are...P460-42, Sov460, and SC460-25


I got my Hall Heritage catalog today...looking forward to it.

[Rhotchkiss]

I think factory 25 in all Sweet Cap series tend to be tougher than other factories.

Regarding Piedmont Factory 42 and Heritage, their catalogue says that the Tinker Bat off fact 42 is the only one known. Not true. I have the other “only one known” (thanks Adam from years ago)

[Luke]

A few of those rankings need an update. Sov460 shpuld be at the bottom and Cycle 460 needs to move up a bit.

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice Tinker P460-42. It's in a lot better shape than the Hall one.

I wonder if T206Resource is still being updated. Off the top of my head, I'd much rather have a Cycle 460 than a Sov 460, although I collect both.

Here are 2 new Tolstoi's for my Sweeney and Mitchell back runs...Tolstoi are selling well I think...

[DeanH3]

Have to agree with what's being said. Cycle's (especially 460's) are gaining in value. I've been able to pick up a couple Tolstoi's recently. At first I didn't care for them as much because they were so similar to Piedmont, but they have grown on me over time. I see Pied 42's lagging, but they are tough to find. Might be a little undervalued.

[t206kid]

It's a small but aggressive pool of buyers on the rare backs. The impact of 3-5 motivated buyers cannot be understated.

I agree with Luke's thoughts that the "standard" back rankings list is way off.

Piedmont 42 is a great back but doesn't drive a ton of interest because the back still says Piedmont. But you really don't see too many of them.

[Vintagecatcher]

I noticed once I started picking up American Beauty backs a few years ago that they jumped in price as well.

Patrick

[CMIZ5290]

In my opinion, Pied 42's and Carolina Brights are hands down two of the toughest backs to find in mid to high grade (5's and higher). I have had Tolstoi, Cycle 460's, AB's, and even an Uzit in grades of 7 and higher, but not these two... I may be wrong, but I dont think I have ever seen either one of these backs in a PSA 7 or higher... If I'm wrong, there can't be too many of them....I did see a couple of SGC 84's from some "find" a few years ago where all of the cards were incredibly over graded...

[RCMcKenzie]

Great cards, Dean.

Kevin, you bring up a good point about condition. It really gets tough to gauge the price of a Hofer, with a difficult back in high grade.

Patrick, I'm working on AB350 NF. Don't tell anyone...Rob

[Leon]

460s almost always seem to get a premium. Agreed on the others too.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I do not think Cycles are equivalent to Brown Hindus. Cycle 460s can be very tough (see lajoie w/ Bat, M Brown Chicago on siort, etc), and i think they may get a little more love by people collecting the back or who need it for a back run. But Cycle 350s are on par with EPDG, Tolstoi, and AB. I note that you posted two Cycle 460 backs.

I think series 460's on all backs, Sov, Cycle, AB, etc carry a premium over their 350 counterparts.

Thus, I think Cycle 460's may get a value bump. But not 350's

[Rhotchkiss]

Bored, so here are my cycle 460's, lets see'em!

[wazoo]

They always come in so small from my phone....Piedmont 42 for safe measure. Can't find my pictures of Snodgrass and Rucker atm...

[DeanH3]

Thank you Rob!

Ryan - Awesome cards. That Lajoie w/bat is smokin!

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Dean. Yours aren’t half bad yourself! You need the Tolstoi Young in Heritage to go with that Cycle 460 (awesome card).

[DeanH3]

I definitely have my eye on a few cards in Heritage. Wish me luck!

[t206kid]

My little pile

[RCMcKenzie]

Nice cards, Wazoo, Ryan and Jay.

I'll make some scans of a few Cycle 460's for tomorrow. The card that prompted this thread was a Cycle 460 Wiltse throwing. I just looked at the psa pop today and it was 1, or 1 and 1 qualifier, so that explains why it went for more than I thought. I was the first underbidder on that one.

I was looking up Wiltse throwing today to check the psa pops on this Tolstoi (7 or so). Lower grade, I guess that's why I got it pretty cheap...

[gabrinus]

Great cards fellas!!!...Jerry

[ValKehl]

Ryan, you really need to add one of these to your VERY NICE Cycle 460 collection!

[scooter729]

My favorite Cycle 460...

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Ryan, you really need to add one of these to your VERY NICE Cycle 460 collection!

Hi Val! How you holding up? Is that a trade invitation?

Great cards Wazoo and Jay, nice Matty Scott, and Bob, it’s amazing how some random cards can be so difficult to find.

[Frank A]

I think the SC 350, fac25 back is the sleeper here. Seems they were printed at the end of the 350 run.

[Rhotchkiss]

Frank, I totally agree. In fact, I will go one step further and argue that all Factory 25, Sweet Caps are more difficult (150, 25 and 250-460, 25). Factory 25 must have had low production, or as you posit, been late to the game each year.

Here are my only other Piedmont Factory 42's. I find these backs super tough; harder than Cycle 460, Tolstoi, and Sovereign 460. I think they don't get the proper love lately because they are Piedmont; same way the SC factory 25's don't get the love they deserve. The Evers factory 42 has been so tough that this is the best I have been able to find for my back run; I am pretty sure it had the same owner as the Tinker fact 42 currently in Heritage.

[DeanH3]

Awesome cards guys. Love that Cycle Matty Scott.

I have a Pied 42 WaJo to add.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

From T206Resource's back scarcity list...

11 Carolina Brights
12 P460-42
13 AB460
14 Hindu brown
15 AB 350 NF
16 Sov 460
17 Cycle 460
18 Tolstoi
19 SC460-25
20 EPDG

From this list, the one's that I think are lagging behind in price are...P460-42, Sov460, and SC460-25

Hi Rob

The AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and SOVEREIGN 460 backs each have "two-personalities". Therefore, we can not generalize on their "scarcity" ranking.


1st...... SOVEREIGN 460....the 46 subjects in the 460-only Series are not difficult to find.

The Six Super Prints with SOVEREIGN 460 backs on display here are very difficult to find.

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2nd...... AMERICAN BEAUTY 460....The "Exclusive 12" subjects (shown here) are relatively easy to find with the AB 460 back.




The other 62 subjects printed with AB 460 backs are quite difficult to find. At least a dozen (or more) are very difficult to find.
It has taken me 15 years to complete the AB 460 run consisting of 74 subjects. I need the 74th card to complete it (Camnitz).


For more details on these two T206 backs, check-out this link..... T206 Reference


TED Z
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[Luke]

Incredible Cycle 460s guys! Here are my HOFers:

[RCMcKenzie]

Hi, Ted, I learned from you about the SOV460 superprints and the 12 relatively easy ab460's. I posted the list from those guys site to spark some discussion on T206. I agree that you have to look at each front/back combo card individually to determine it's rarity. Thanks everyone for posting your cards. Let's see some more.

I'm still going to scan some cycle460 cards later today when I have time. Here's a SuperPrint 'twin' from SC 460 42...Now I need the Red Hindu

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Hi Val! How you holding up? Is that a trade invitation?

Ryan, I'm holding up well right now - thanks for asking. But, it has been a difficult year thus far, due to a major health issue I'm dealing with. Due to my age and low white-blood-cell counts caused by meds I am taking, if I catch the COVID-19, I'm most likely a goner. Everyone, be safe and keep your families safe.

I hope all is going well for you and yours, both health wise and business wise.

Yes, my comment is a trade invitation, provided you are able to come up with one or more of these most-wanted cards:
- 1917 D-Unc Merchants Bakery card of WaJo.
- 1917 D328 Weil Baking card of WaJo.
- 1917 D350-2 Standard Biscuit card of Sam Rice.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I think the SC 350, fac25 back is the sleeper here. Seems they were printed at the end of the 350 run.

Heads up on SCap backs after 30 years of collecting.... The only backs I ever got a regular premium on were SCap 150 fact. 649 overprints.....That is it, period.....

[RCMcKenzie]

Dusted off the scanner for these half-dozen. I think I have a few more stored away. I need to make a better inventory. My favorite is the Ed Sweeney. I have a nice Sweeney run going...We have a pretty good start on all the Cycle 460's with our combined cards...

[tedzan]

Since the name of this game is CYCLE 460, here's two more cards....Donlin and Ford.


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TED Z

T206 Reference
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[MVSNYC]

Some great cards, everyone.

My take is this...I've been collecting T206 rare backs for 30 years. I do not think these mid-tier (Sov, Cycle, AB, etc) rare backs were ever "underrated" or undervalued. I think as the really rare T206 backs (Drum, Uzit, Lenox, Red Hindu, BL 460, etc) went up in price, they become way out of reach, and also dried up...thus the mid-tier backs became the ones to chase. So they have also gone up in price (high tide raises all boats).