Vintage autograph value question.

[Lordstan]

OK,
So there is a guy on ebay with some signed cards, one of which interests me. He has an a card signed by a common player who died in 1963. He is asking at least 4x what I would expect a card from that player to sell for. The card is slabbed PSA/DNA with an autograph grade. He had many others, including some HOFers which were priced similarly, as I believe, out of line.

I called his office and inquired what he used to set his prices. His explanation was that the premium for the cards was because they were signed at, or close to, the time the card produced. His rationale is that a vintage signed item should value in the multiples, 2-3 or more times, of what a later signed similar item is valued at. He used as example of a rookie signed Jordan photo he sold for $1200, instead of the $300-400 usual price and a Lemieux item with a similar story.

My rebuttal was that only in certain circumstances does a signature dated to a specific time may increase the value of an item multiples the value of a regular sig. His examples of rookie signed M Jordan and M Lemieux items are both good examples where a certain provenance means something. A 1914 Baltimore News Ruth signed by a teenage Babe or a 1952 topps containing a 1950's era Mantle signature both certainly would value in the multiples of a later signed similar. The thing that ties all these items together is that all of these are players are/were the giants of the game they played. They are instantly recognizable across the world, for the most part. All are highly collected and command a premium even without anything special about the item. My point was that common players, and even some of the HOFers items would command a price increase, but only a percentage of the value(maybe 20-30%) instead of a multiple of the price.

Another issue I had, with this card, was that there is no documentation that comes with the card to prove this provenance. The card is only PSA/DNA encapsulated without any notations of "vintageness." After some discussion, we politely and amicably agreed to disagree on these points.

My questions for the community are what do you think? How much does a vintage signature on any item increase the price in relation to a later signed same item? Do you think there is a flat increment or does it vary by the item/player?

Thanks
Mark

[GrayGhost]

Im sure guys on here who collect autographs will have more info, but my take is this:

Vintage signatures are almost ALWAYS more desirable on CERTAIN players, especially those who have high demand, and signature changed, and did a lot of show signings.

The obvious examples are Mickey mantle, and Joe Dimaggio, esp Mickey. Vintage style stuff is much harder to come by, and usually valued a lot more. Joe D, the same, just not as much maybe. The item obviously would be "vintage too" if it was vintage signed etc, w a pen, etc.

common HOFers and players, I dont think it makes all that much difference, as to vintage time. And, obviously, rare or VERY sought after signs like Gehrig, Ruth, Cobb, etc, there isnt as much variation in price from early in their careers to late in life.

[whitehse]

Sorry for jumping in on this thread but I have a Ken Hubbs signature that I understand is..well not rare but there is a demand for them because of his early passing in a plane crash. Looking for comments on the rarity and demand of Ken Hubbs autos

[RichardSimon]

He is obviously rare, but the demand is not high.

[Tedw9]

In my opinion there would be an increase in value if the item had been signed at an earlier time, but that increase would depend on the player.

The examples used, Mantle, Jordan, Lemieux, I can see how you would get a multiplier for those early examples. But personally, I would not pay too much of a premium for others who were not HOF'ers, and even then, it would depend on who it was. Willie Mays may be another player who I would think would sell for multiple, but I am not familiar with his early sigs.

I just paid multiple the normal price for an early Mantle autograph, but I thought the price was worth it for a more rare signature.

I would be interested to hear what others have to say on this subject.

My experience is the same as above mentioned. I have an auto of Mantle when he played for the Kansas City Blues. Pre rookie. Also several other Blues players that eventually played for the Yankees. I have no clue the value and would love to hear an estimate but I know it is worth quite a bit more than I paid and thats why I got it. Here are a few pics of the autos. I think there are 38 total autos in the book. 90% are Yankees and the other is Negro league players.

[Lordstan]

Well,
Asking about specific item values isn't really what this thread was meant to be about. I am looking for the board to weigh in on the idea of relative value between vintage and non vintage signed items of the same player.

Any other knowledgable autograph veterans care to weigh in?


PS: PUP, Are you sure the signed item is from KC? Rizzuto, Mantle and Mize were never together in KC. Rizzuto plyed over 100g in 1939 and in 1940. Mize played 26g in 1950. Mantle played 40g in 1951. In 1950 he was in Joplin for 137g. They were together on the Yanks team from 1951-1953. Also Tom Morgan never played with Rizzuto in KC. (All data from Baseball Reference website.)
Also, I think the Mantle would be more valuable if it were on an item directly traceable to KC, like a program, etc. As it is, it is indistiguishable from any early 50's Mantle sig. It's rare as it is, but on a minor league item, I def think it would be even more rare and more valuable.

The lady I bought this from was in her 80's. She had pics of her father with Rizzuto in a KC uniform. Rizzuto was back in the late 40's. Mantle and the rest of them were gotten over the next 2-7 yrs. She has a few pics of her with Mantle and Skowren, and Bauer as a young teen I guess. She never would tell me her exact age just that she was 80 yrs and counting backwards for a few now I have been able to trace every player in the book to the KC Blues. Also included is a few signatures from the Blues Batboys. One of which she supposedly knew. Her connection to the dugout was Rizzuto though. I guess Rizzuto could pull strings if he needed to get her father down to meet players. She says her father used to take her to games and thats how she was able to get the autos.

I have already had the book looked at through an online view and they wanted to get the book and cut and slab all the autos. Then auction them off. Said the Mantle could bring in $9000+ because of the pre Yankee auto. Rizzuto was another and there are a few others also that could bring some $ because they are all minor league autos. Her son got the Negro Leaguers later. Some of which I here are near impossible to find.

I myself could never pay anything over the autos value regardless of the card for non HOF'ers. If someone wants to over charge and does not have the info to validate the price then maybe its not about selling the auto as much as it is about LOOK WHAT I GOT

Now HOF'ers are different and dates all make the difference also. hard thing is to prove the dates for the auto other than how it changes over time.

I think that every auto is different in value. There is not rate of increase and as time goes supply and demand is what drives everything.


Sorry I busted up your thread but I was hoping for some feedback here as well. I have had this posted before and got no response about anything. Maybe a collector could email me if they have info so I don't take anymore room here.