Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Looks like listing was removed an hour ago. I guess thats the only card in the auction with issues if thats the only card that was removed so we are in luck

Nice

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

According to corndog. PWCC is currently selling a re-colored card 1975 Hank Aaron that was prior purchased by Moser etc.. Current bidding is over a $1900+ profit. Im sure its all getting worked out.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...9#post15212859

So is PWCC still taking consignments from Moser? Has PWCC created any safeguards to prevent doctored cards from being sold? Has anything changed?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

So is PWCC still taking consignments from Moser? Has PWCC created any safeguards to prevent doctored cards from being sold? Has anything changed?

Apparently nothing at all has changed. Sure a few refunds have been issued when undisputable proof is provided. But it's apparently still up to us (the buying public) to spot the altered cards, since the "self-appointed experts" can't even begin to do it.

What a f----d up hobby this has become.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

So is PWCC still taking consignments from Moser? Has PWCC created any safeguards to prevent doctored cards from being sold? Has anything changed?

I would assume the submitter is not Mosher, as to the type of middleman, who knows

[Rhotchkiss]

It appears the auction was taken down. Once again, the guys at BODA are total rockstars and heroes of the hobby. I am glad for them bc clearly PSA is wholly inept.

Go BODA! Thanks for all your hard work.

Side note/thought - what if everyone kicked in $50 or $100 each year and we, as a hobby, hired BODA, and some guys trained by BODA, to just troll auctions and listings and out cards that appear to be altered. In other-words, the hobby voluntarily funds a watchdog TPG for the benefit of the hobby. Obviously it needs thought and there are many operational issues, not the least of which is funding, but I, for one, would contribute to that cause.

[Johnny630]

How about all pitch in for a large table/both at EVERY MAJOR CARD SHOW ACROSS THE COUNTY TO SET UP WITH A LARGE SCREEN COMPUTER/TV ILLUSTRATING EVERY ALTERED SLABED CARD DISCOVERED BY THE BODA. IN THE FRONT OF THE ROOM ENTRANCE OR BETTER YET RIGHT NEXT TO THE LARGEST TPG IN THE INDUSTY. RUN IT CONSTANTLY THROUGH OUT THE WHOLE HOURS OF THE SHOW

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I would assume the submitter is not Mosher, as to the type of middleman, who knows

Good point. That's easy to do.

[JunkyJoe]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It appears the auction was taken down. Once again, the guys at BODA are total rockstars and heroes of the hobby. I am glad for them bc clearly PSA is wholly inept.

Go BODA! Thanks for all your hard work.

Side note/thought - what if everyone kicked in $50 or $100 each year and we, as a hobby, hired BODA, and some guys trained by BODA, to just troll auctions and listings and out cards that appear to be altered. In other-words, the hobby voluntarily funds a watchdog TPG for the benefit of the hobby. Obviously it needs thought and there are many operational issues, not the least of which is funding, but I, for one, would contribute to that cause.

I'm all for this. Of course, it would take a lot more than contributions from just the members here. I'm thinking, across the hobby, there are at least a few hundred, maybe a thousand collectors, who'd be willing to pitch in something. Many might only be willing or able to pitch in $50 or $100 per year, while a few high rollers might be willing to pitch in thousands of dollars. I could imagine around $80K to $100K being raised every year, realistically. Maybe even more?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

It appears the auction was taken down. Once again, the guys at BODA are total rockstars and heroes of the hobby. I am glad for them bc clearly PSA is wholly inept.

Go BODA! Thanks for all your hard work.

Side note/thought - what if everyone kicked in $50 or $100 each year and we, as a hobby, hired BODA, and some guys trained by BODA, to just troll auctions and listings and out cards that appear to be altered. In other-words, the hobby voluntarily funds a watchdog TPG for the benefit of the hobby. Obviously it needs thought and there are many operational issues, not the least of which is funding, but I, for one, would contribute to that cause.

A number of people probably would contribute. But who's going to organize it? Over the years we've had lots of talk about forming a trade association but it's always someone else's job to actually do it.

[Johnny630]

I’m all for the above.

[JunkyJoe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A number of people probably would contribute. But who's going to organize it? Over the years we've had lots of talk about forming a trade association but it's always someone else's job to actually do it.

I think one way to organize would be to have various hobby veterans from across the country meet up at the national one of these years --- hobby veterans from forums / online communities such as Net54, Blowout, and others. These longtime collectors and highly-reputable dealers could meet at a reserved venue somewhere near the national.

I think this would have to start with emails between the owners and moderators of these Internet venues, as well as longtime collectors reaching out to others they know in the hobby who would be interested in supporting the cause.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by JunkyJoe

I'm all for this. Of course, it would take a lot more than contributions from just the members here. I'm thinking, across the hobby, there are at least a few hundred, maybe a thousand collectors, who'd be willing to pitch in something. Many might only be willing or able to pitch in $50 or $100 per year, while a few high rollers might be willing to pitch in thousands of dollars. I could imagine around $80K to $100K being raised every year, realistically. Maybe even more?

what about an auction house with integrity who is actually making a ton on the card to take some of those months of wait time while taking in cards to research it more than a guy like Boda thats making nothing..

can even be researched before shipping the card to the buyer....especially for cards that sell for a certain number such as 5k +

[perezfan]

It’s become readily apparent that none of the leading hobby businesses care a lick about the consumer, who happens to be their life-blood. Only dollars, market share and profits resonate with them. So unfortunately it is us collectors who have to look out for one another.

I don’t know what a booth at the National costs. But if someone at BODA can get it off the ground, I’ll contribute $100 towards the continuous loop video showing the thousands of examples of altered cards in PSA Slabs. Given PSA’s money, power and status within the Industry, I’m sure they’d find a way to squelch it very quickly (similar to how they censor/delete valid concerns in their own Forum).

Even though we’re all well versed on the problems and corruption, I would estimate that 98% of submitting collectors remain unaware. This could help to spread the word far better than anything that’s been done to date. It would have bigger impact in Chicago than AC, so there’s about a year and a half to get it going, should someone at BODA want to take it on.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Same here. It’s become readily apparent that none of the leading hobby businesses care a lick about the consumer, who happens to be their life-blood. Only dollars, market share and profits resonate with them. So unfortunately it is us collectors who have to look out for one another.

I don’t know what a booth at the National costs. But if someone at BODA can get it off the ground, I’ll contribute $100 towards the continuous loop video showing the thousands of examples of altered cards in PSA Slabs. Given PSA’s money, power and status within the Industry, I’m sure they’d find a way to squelch it very quickly (similar to how they censor/delete valid concerns in their own Forum).

Even though we’re all well versed on the problems and corruption, I would estimate that 98% of submitting collectors remain unaware. This could help to spread the word far better than anything that’s been done to date. It would have bigger impact in Chicago than AC, so there’s about a year and a half to get it going, should someone at BODA want to take it on.

+1 I have $100 Bill Ready For that Booth in Atlantic City and every other National Location Chicago and Cleveland. Plus the other major shows, east coast national, winter madness at White Plains, Philly every show, Shriners, Sun Times, Every Single Major Large Show Where NB is Set Up.

[Johnny630]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=235


Lajoie Horrendous

This would be a perfect example, amongst thousands of other disgraced graded cards to show on Display at every card show next to their booth.......
This is the opinion you’re paying for....think twice

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ugh. Hopefully one of our centering mavens didn't buy it, or if they did they will see the post and return the thing.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ugh. Hopefully one of our centering mavens didn't buy it, or if they did they will see the post and return the thing.

Why would a centering maven buy that? It's not centered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Why would a centering maven buy that? It's not centered.

Yeah I guess not. Brent did sticker it and describe it as having outstanding centering though.

[mq711]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=235


Lajoie Horrendous

This would be a perfect example, amongst thousands of other disgraced graded cards to show on Display at every card show next to their booth.......
This is the opinion you’re paying for....think twice

I would think this card/grade gives credibility to those who believe PSA is involved in this scheme. A PSA 5 without a corner, most would get a 3.5 at best.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=235


Lajoie Horrendous

This would be a perfect example, amongst thousands of other disgraced graded cards to show on Display at every card show next to their booth.......
This is the opinion you’re paying for....think twice

Nice! A one point bump with more visible damage. Nothing out of PSA surprises me anymore.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Nice! A one point bump with more visible damage. Nothing out of PSA surprises me anymore.

Yet on the other concurrent thread concerning the crack out and return of the GAI Card, everyone automatically seems to believe PSA is right and GAI was wrong. After thousands of concrete examples of egregious PSA mistakes, the assumption is still that PSA is infallible somehow. Explains a lot about the hoards of sheep in submission lines, and high prices still being realized in PWCC Auctions.

To (kind of) quote Steely Dan...

But they wouldn't know a trimmed card if they held it in their hand
The things they think are precious, I can't understand.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yet on the other concurrent thread concerning the crack out and return of the GAI Card, everyone automatically seems to believe PSA is right and GAI was wrong. After thousands of concrete examples of egregious PSA mistakes, the assumption is still that PSA is infallible somehow. Explains a lot about the hoards of sheep in submission lines, and high prices still being realized in PWCC Auctions.

To (kind of) quote Steely Dan...

But they wouldn't know a trimmed card if they held it in their hand
The things they think are precious, I can't understand.

They're reeling in the cash for sure.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They're reeling in the cash for sure.

Haha....

You one-upped me!

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yet on the other concurrent thread concerning the crack out and return of the GAI Card, everyone automatically seems to believe PSA is right and GAI was wrong. After thousands of concrete examples of egregious PSA mistakes, the assumption is still that PSA is infallible somehow. Explains a lot about the hoards of sheep in submission lines, and high prices still being realized in PWCC Auctions.

Missing an alteration is a lot more common, and understandable, than identifying an alteration that isn't there.

PSA had every incentive to grade that $5,000 Gehrig with a number, and charge the corresponding grading fee. They saw something significant enough wrong with the card that they passed up that grading fee.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Missing an alteration is a lot more common, and understandable, than identifying an alteration that isn't there.

PSA had every incentive to grade that $5,000 Gehrig with a number, and charge the corresponding grading fee. They saw something significant enough wrong with the card that they passed up that grading fee.

I thought you pay for the review irrespective of the result.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I thought you pay for the review irrespective of the result.

So it cost the buyer the price of getting a $5,000 dollar asset graded, so he could learn the asset was doctored, and worth only a small fraction of that? And PSA still didn't re-slab it?

I've never had an asset graded by any TPG so I'm just asking because I don't know how it works. I assumed the grading fee correlated to the actual value of the asset.

[Johnny630]

Sadly everything to me is baked in........except it or move on seems to be the theme of the industry/hobby............I’m totally in a seemingly endlessly melancholy state in terms of the hobby.

It’s sad......

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I assumed the grading fee correlated to the actual value of the asset.

Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.

Thanks for the info!

So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees.

And the seller receives his card back, along with info PSA determined, without having to pay PSA for it.

Ordinarily I would say the seller received a free review of his card and should appreciate that, but of course I understand, since the news from PSA was bad, it was news the seller did not want to hear. And since the card is now out of the GAI holder, its doctored status can no longer be hidden.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, regarding the other concurrent thread, a buyer pays over $5k for a card graded 7, he then presumably pays the PSA fee to confirm authenticity/altered status/regrade, discovers it has been doctored, and returns the card (without the deceptive - worse than worthless - GAI holder.) It seems to me that the buyer really came out on the short end, losing those PSA fees.

Well, both the buyer and seller are theoretically harmed by the decision. One is out cash, one is out an item in original condition. That's why PSA and other grading services have the ability to review the card while still in the holder, and only crack it out if the requested grade is met.

The buyer is trying to have it both ways here. They bought a card, and cracked it out to send to PSA raw. This should invalidate the return process since the card is no longer in the condition it was sold in; that's the risk that comes from cracking a card out. PSA's determination of minsize or alteration is their opinion, effectively. The seller should have never clicked on the button to accept the refund request.

Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Now the owner of the cracked out card cannot return it down the line, and is stuck with a loss through no fault of their own (presuming they purchased it in good faith).

Right. There is definitely a loss involved here, and I think both buyer and seller are innocent of any wrongdoing. Somebody a long time ago, when GAI was still in business, snuck a doctored card through and got it slabbed a 7, and that person (or GAI's poor abilities) is at fault.

The only question really is, who takes the hit? The guy who was cheated originally (the seller) or the guy who paid his own money to PSA to uncover the fraud (the buyer.)

[swarmee]

It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty. That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It's like ripping the tag off a mattress or slicing the factory warranty sticker on a computer tower. Once you've cracked the card from the case, you've invalidated the warranty.

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?

Originally Posted by swarmee

That's the risk with taking the card out of the holder in the first place. If the card graded a VG-EX 4 by PSA instead of Altered, could the buyer return it to the seller at that point?

No. I would be 100% on the sellers side even if the asset received a PSA 1.

The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6....

At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered.

Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby.

At least it used to be........ now I wonder...

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?



No. I would be 100% on the sellers side even if the asset received a PSA 1.

The card was altered. That does not have anything to do with a bunch of experts opining whether the card is a 4, or 5, or 6....

At some point someone doctored the card, and presumably GAI didn't discover the deception. All these years later, the deception was uncovered.

Outing doctored cards is a good thing, a public service to the hobby.

At least it used to be........ now I wonder...

Are you the buyer?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Are you the buyer?

The most expensive card I own is my T202 Birmingham's Home Run in PSA 5. I paid about $240 for it years ago, remembering Lew Lipset had written that it was the scarcest card in the set. I should've bought a Cobb instead.

So......... no.

[swarmee]

Ok, so you're a straw man guy. Got it.

I didn't realize there was any proof the card originally in the GAI holder was altered. PSA declared it was after the card was removed from the holder. There is no understanding of whether or not the card was altered after being cracked out, by the buyer. It may have been fine in the GAI holder, just overgraded.

Again, the precedent this sets is that any card can be removed from the holder and returned for a refund. Which would lead to even more fraud. I am all for rooting out fraud in the space, this just doesn't seem like the same thing. Your arguments are being read as white-knighting for the buyer, who know they did something wrong and are trying to pass the buck back to the unsuspecting seller.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Ok, so you're a straw man guy. Got it.

I didn't realize there was any proof the card originally in the GAI holder was altered. PSA declared it was after the card was removed from the holder. There is no understanding of whether or not the card was altered after being cracked out, by the buyer. It may have been fine in the GAI holder, just overgraded.

Again, the precedent this sets is that any card can be removed from the holder and returned for a refund. Which would lead to even more fraud. I am all for rooting out fraud in the space, this just doesn't seem like the same thing. Your arguments are being read as white-knighting for the buyer, who know they did something wrong and are trying to pass the buck back to the unsuspecting seller.

Not sure why you feel a need to call me a straw man or white knighting for the buyer, but whatever. I thought we were having an honest and mutually repectful discussion about something that has a lot of angles to it, and serious ramifications going forward.

Ebay has said that they treat GAI differently than the current, recognized TPG: Beckett, PSA, SGC. So your precedent of people cracking, resubmitting, and returning wouldn't work on ebay regarding those slabs in the first place.

And I don't think it should've worked had alterations not been discovered in this case. This is NOT a matter of a guy buying a card, trying to get a better grade, seeing he can't, then returning the card out of its slab. Everybody in the world knows that would be wrong. This is about discovering and exposing a deception that seriously impacts the value of the actual card.

You didn't respond to my answer to your computer scenario. I am curious what your thoughts are, so I'll repeat my question to you:

What if I buy a computer system described as new, slice the factory warranty sticker on the tower and discover they sold me a system frankensteined together with a bunch of used parts? Is the fact I needed to slice the sticker to inspect it enough for them to put the blame on ME, while conveniently overlooking the real fraud?

[swarmee]

I actually wrote a response to the computer scenario, but as you seem to just be arguing to argue, I didn't intend to continue the conversation.

If the computer was working properly, and you were sold a lemon but didn't know it, is there really an issue that required the slicing of the seal? If the computer was malfunctioning, and you knew that by slicing the seal you were voiding the warranty, wouldn't you return the computer, with seal intact, whether the parts were fake or they were real and just broken?

You are adding a lot of hypotheticals to this issue where they don't really apply, so you are using "straw man" logic.

[Mark17]

It doesn't matter why someone breaks the seal on the computer. What matters is that when he does and fraud is revealed, it is the fraud that meatters Not the seal. Not the GAI holder.

I am arguing to argue, while you are on some higher ground? Whatever.

In your world, if a guy flattens out corners of a card, then neatly trims them sharp, in such a way that the only way the alteration can be detected would be to inspect the edges and measure the thickness, then all he has to do is get it slabbed and he's home free!

1. If the card remains slabbed, nobody ever knows.
2. If the card is cracked and the alteration discovered, no recourse for the buyer because he cracked it out.

You said I was white-knighting for the buyer. Now I will ask you, are you white-knighting for card doctors?

[swarmee]

Ok man, have a good time. I think I've proven I'm not a fan of the card doctors. What we haven't proven is that your wronged buyer isn't the card doctor himself.

[perezfan]

Early Global Authentication was just as good as any other TPG. They devolved later on, but depending on when this card was graded by GAI, it could've been perfectly legit in that slab. Lots of assumptions being made here, and lots of NON apples-to-apples scenarios being thrown around.

Perhaps this particular thread should revert back to its original subject matter of outed altered cards, and we debate the cracked out card solely within the other thread.

[Stampsfan]

Don’t we have another thread going for this GAI returned item scenario?

[perezfan]

Exactly… Hopefully the discussion of the cracked GAI Card can remain solely in that thread.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Usually yes, but if you submit at a high price level and the card is found to be counterfeit, PSA doesn't refund you anything. If the card was submitted at a cheap level and then garners a grade making it worth a lot, they will contact the submitter and charge more for the submission after the fact.

AND that's a scam in it's own right, IMHO.

[drcy]

I've pondered if collectors (for those who do) accept altered cards that are mislabeled, how can they turn around and argue they should that they should be refunded for a card that is misidentified (fake labeled as authentic)?

[Johnny630]

I think everything is baked in now.....all the information is readily available for everyone. I see nothing changing we will see the same mantra.....be careful whom you buy from, buy from trusted reputable guys only...buy the card not the holder ect.....many people could care less if their card/cards are altered as long as they're in that almighty NB Slab all is cool to them.

Idk...It's very weird logic doesn't define reality ........above is my reality of this situation

[Johnny630]

58 White Letter Goes From a 8.5 to a 10 please check out.
BODA Corndog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=237

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

58 White Letter Goes From a 8.5 to a 10 please check out.
BODA Corndog

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...90614&page=237

This problem lies with the "idiots" paying $40K for a pristine...altered...4th year clemente card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

This problem lies with the "idiots" paying $40K for a pristine...altered...4th year clemente card.

I am sorry to correct you. They paid for a flip saying PSA 10.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am sorry to correct you. They paid for a flip saying PSA 10.

i stand corrected...and I stand by calling this behavior "idiotic!"