O/T Barry Bonds announces retirement

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

I know it's off topic, but it's kind of on topic since he is close to passing Ruth in homeruns. Barry Bonds has announced he will retire at the end of the year, whether he passes Aaron or not. For the ghoulish among us who want to handicap how many homers his body can crank out, Bonds reports that he cannot run because he has no cartilage in his knee -- just bone scraping against bone. But he says he can still swing a bat.

I don't know Bonds so I don't know whether he is the kind of person who might later change his mind, or the kind of person who might make up the retirements story entirely just for fun. But he is in the final year of a five year contract.

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

I didn't read Bonds' statements as an unequivocal statement that he was going to retire, so I don't know how seriously to take it.
Being a huge Giants fan and season ticketholder, I can say that Bonds rarely changes his mind, once he does make a "sure thing" statement. Lots of times, what he says doesn't make sense, but he generally sticks to his decisions.
That's too bad, but if he can't play, he can't play.
There won't be another homerun hitter like him in a very long time. If he can'r break the record, I couldn't hazard to guess who could.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

A-Rod will pass Aaron on the all time homerun list anyways. providing he stays healthy untill he retires.

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

The operative phrase being if he stays healthy...He'll have to continue on his average of 44 HR/yr for about 8 more years, bringing his total years to 20. I'm not saying it's not able to be accomplished, but there are a lot of "if's."

[Archive]

Posted By: Andrew Parks

Once upon a time Ken Griffey looked like a shoe-in for 700 homeruns...

[Archive]

Posted By: John

When I saw the message topic listed here I was hoping Barry was retiring now, before this season. And that he would come (fully) clean about how he didn't deserve the records he has and disclose the truth about his steroid abuse. His records are a joke and a sham. The Sultan of Shots.

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

Bonds is most feared hitter ever! Give him a little credit. At 41 he still is the best pure hitter today. If he gets 400 ABs he will be MVP (again). He will hit a HR every 7-8 times up, and hit .350 on bad knees with a shift on and facing lefty specialists in one of the toughest ball park for HRs in league. Its funny how much of the east coast (and LA fans) hates him. Give him some credit. He's had an awesome career.

Bonds is just as strong now as he ever was, and he is a few years removed from the so called steroid use. He is now same size, same bat speed, same feared hitter. He works out as well as anyone, and his stats since 2001 prove it. Take 1/2 the players out of the Hall then. Players from the 1950s-70s used greenies (meth). Players from early 1900s used cocaine (and again in 1980s). No night games, no Negro players, every era had its advantages. Babe Ruth was so much better than players of his era just like Bonds IS so much better than players of his era. Thats what makes them the best 2 players ever, period! Hate him if you want, make your excuses..... aint going to change history.


PS A-Rod will have trouble reaching record if he plays in NY much longer.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I equate athletes on steroids with gang banger-types you see with pit bulls. I've always figured that if you were a real tough guy you wouldn't need no pit bull, but would be walking around with a Chihauhau or Yorkshire Terrier.

Beware of the tough walking this:



I also compare taking steroids with cheating on a school test. If you get all the answers right on a college test but are found to have cheated, you don't don't get your grade lowered to a B or C, you get an F. In track and field if you are caught using steroids you receive a grade of 0 out of 100. You not only have to give up any awards, medals and records you received, you have to give up all money you won.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

bonds should be banned from baseball. if you use steroids or corked bats, you should be banned.

[Archive]

Posted By: Daniel Bretta

Cheating has been a part of the game since Mike King Kelly started "rounding" third base. Steroids are a little seamier than skipping third base, but through the years many players corked their bats, scuffed/spit/vaselined et cetera, and since the 1950's half of the players were taking greenies (speed) in order to play day games after night games without being tired.

Ken Caminiti said that more than 50% of players in his era were taking steroids and I believe him...I believe that Barry Bonds was among those players without doubt, but he was still by far better than any other player on steroids hands down....I have never seen a player at the plate with that much confidence and ability. It truly is scary. He's a first ballot hall of famer and with or without the steroids I believe he is one of the greatest hitters of all time.

I still don't want to see him pass Hank Aaron though.

[Archive]

Posted By: daviddbreadman

The only reason Bonds is wrapping it up is because he cannot play without steriods. His whole career is a fraud as are hit stats. He is a chump!

I own 2 Yorkshire terriers and am proud to walk them! Though in this cold weather I won't let them go out without their sweaters on first.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

Actually, Yorkies can be spirited. When I was a kid, my family had a 9 pound female Silky Terrier and she terrorized bigger dogs. She taught me that it's attitude more than size that matters with dogs.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koteles

Bonds is ONE BAD mutha hubbard ,w/o question. This
guy launches liner homers like no other. Tell me
that nearly all of football and wrestling are on
roids. I dont really care, the guys'swing may be
the SWEEETEST ever !

The bat speed generated CANNOT be taught. Seems to
me the bulkier that one is, the harder it would be
to get the bat head out quicker. Stronger on roids
yes, but I think there is a balance somewhere. The
guy is delightful to watch.

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm sure we can do without another steroids debate, but the bulk/muscle/bat speed debate is a bit of a red herring. Marathoners use steroids and, if you look at pictures of world class marathoners, you will see it has nothing to do with bulk and muscle for them. I will bet you that many MLB players would compare playing 162 game to a marathon, especially when if they're in their late 30s or early 40s. When you hear Hank Aaron and others talking about getting old as a player, it's part about losing bat speed, leg speed and stength, but it's also about wearing down, nagging injuries, sore muscles, missing practices and games, the inablity physically take the grind.

[Archive]

Posted By: BcDaniels

by saying if he had a good year..........he would play in 2007.
Plain and simple,he wants the record.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Doesn't matter if Bonds did or didn't use steroids. The fact is he played in the steroids era when "everyone" used steroids, so he received no advantage. Everyone gets bent out of shape about hitter on steroids, but what about the pitchers. More pitchers have tesated postive than hitters, so far. Roger Clemens shows all the classic signs of steroid use, yet no one dares breath a word about that possiblity. It's just as likely that Clemens took them as Bonds. So if you are going be outraged about Bonds and his exploits, why don't you show the same indignation towards Clemens?

Personaly, I don't care one way or the other since everyone was playing under the same conditions and right now, there is some new form of cheating going that we haven't learned about yet. So get over it and learn to deal with the fact that cheating has been part of game and always will be part of the game. I don't like it, but it's the way it is.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

But if I managed an opposing team, my pitchers would throw at the knee every AB. Let the bastard skip rope w/o cartilage and see how he reacts.

[Archive]

Posted By: Andrew Parks

It's obvious Bonds gained so much weight that he must have been juicing!


Same with Ruth -- I mean look at the weight gain!

[Archive]

Posted By: Cy

What about Mays, Aaron, Mantle? Shouldn't we also exclude their accomplishments? Didn't they play in the era where "geenies" were placed like mints in the clubhouse. Greenies(amphetamines) were illegal. Greenies were enhancements. Should we now look at their accomplishemnets and diminish them too because they used a banned substance?

And there is also the Hall of famer Gaylord Perry. What is he noted for? And he is in the Hall of Fame. There is a definite double standard being placed on the steroid user.

Cy

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

What swing? I didn't see a swing...



Stan's just along for the ride...

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul

Here's a link to Bonds' "clarification".

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060219&content_id=1315857&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

I now think it's quite clear he has not decided to retire. The quote is "If I can play, I'll play."

[Archive]

Posted By: RP60

Its not 100% yet, but..He will be 42 in July. And wants, I think, to see Aaron with the all time record, if he cant...Its tuff to say that scandal is strictly to blame.With the bum knee even more reason not to bother with another..Likley the finest hitter of his generation. But will the game miss him? I know ESPN will...

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

Pujols has averaged 40 HRs a year in his awesome 1st 5 years (201). He will have to average 40 HRs a year for next 14 years (at age 40) to even pass Aaron's 755. Im sure the record will be greater than 755 by then. Pujols is a long shot unless he starts putting up 50+ HR years soon.


A-Rod has averaged 39 HRs in 1st 11 seasons (429). He will have to average over 36+ in next 9 years (at age 40) to pass Aaron's 755. A-Rod has a better chance, especially if he leaves NY (not a righty friendly park).


Both of these guys need to start hitting HRs at least once every 10 ABs. Bonds has easily done it 5 years in a row (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005). No one else has done it since Sosa in 2001.
Frank

[Archive]

Posted By: Genaro

I never much liked Bonds but he seems to me to be Teddy Ballgame's equal at the bat and better fielder with base path speed. I think allot of Bonds weight gain is natural for a young 20 year old to 40 years old. I am not saying he didn’t use steroids. He may have but I do think let the chips fall where they may. If no proof ever shows up he needs to be elected on the first ballot. I am a huge Ted Williams fan My favorite player but in appreciating Bonds to me doesn’t discount my admorations for the Splended Splinter.

I was looking at some 1936 pictures of Joe D and a few when he retired he wasn’t that skinny kid from San Diego either. Looks like Joe's uniform is going to fall off if he walks to fast.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason Duncan

It's obvious to me that you guys that are grasping at straws never played the game at a higher level. It is pointless to pull baseball cards of a 20 year old rookie and try to compare them to him now at 41. Anybody that ages know by natural causes you gain weight naturally........metabolism slows etc. It has never been proven that Bonds took steroids. ........just admit the truth, he has become a better hitter with age. He has in his later career perhaps become the best PURE hitter of all time. It takes alot more than steroids to hit a 90MPH big league pitch over a 350-400 foot fence. The guy is naturally strong just face it. When I was 21 I worked hard eating 5 full meals per day trying to pack on wieght 6-2 170s). Now I am 32 and weigh 230 lbs and I never took steroids. By the way IU eat alot less, do not work out much as far as weight training and I am not that overweight. Face it.....people gain wieght naturally. I dont think Bonds takes roids. You people that think his records come off of taking steroids need to SERIOUSLY WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!


Jason

[Archive]

Posted By: fkw

I also played. Im now 6'2" 228# at 40 years old and fairly good shape overall. I was 6'2" 185# when drafted 4th round in the Jan 1985 draft by the Expos. I played against Bonds many times in HS and summer American Legion ball. Bonds and I were the exact same height, I weighed maybe 5 lbs more in HS. A normal 18 year old athelete thats 6'2" will weight 20-40 lbs more at 40 years old, especially if he hits the gym a few times a week for those 22+ years. I was basically the same weight as Bonds in 1982, 1988, 1992, 1998, and now 2006. And I have never seen a steroid. Not saying he hasnt done any, just saying you cant go by his body. The guy has always worked out like crazy.


Frank Ward


http://www.thebaseballcube.com/teams/draft/montreal-expos-1985.shtml

[Archive]

Posted By: davidcycleback

For the record, Barry Bonds acknowledged before a grand jury that he took steroids. It's just that he said he did it unknowingly. Remember the linsead oil incident?

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

That's correct David - the clear and the cream...

Looking at this in a different perspective - If you believe the rumors then steroid use in MLB was rampant. If this is the case then you've got to take your hats off to Bonds because he put up some pretty good numbers in a short period of time, better numbers than the other players that were also "enhanced". Bonds took the clear and the cream further than anyone else did and according to rumor there were many that did.

[Archive]

Posted By: Andrew Parks

Jason,

I suppose you're referring to my baseball card...? I played four years of college baseball. I played against and with many current and former major league players. Furthermore, my point of the card is to look at how different Ruth looked 20 years later and he never used steroids. So I was actually supporting your argument. Sheesh.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anson

Fact:

Barry Bonds = the only player/athlete to ever get better after the age of 37 in ANY sport. Ever!!!!

I won't pour gasoline on the debate but greenies can't be compared to steroids. Steroids can be used for bulking, recovering, reducing inflammation. They have long acting steroids that can show compounded benefit. Using a narcotic doesn't have anywhere the same impact on the body. Especially when we're talking about athletes who are beyond their prime years.

Yes, many players took steroids. Most we probably don't know about. But, we're also talking about writing history books. It's not like one MVP award or a Brady Anderson career season. This is someone setting a curve once again. Bonds is and always has been a HOF talent. It's sad that he's diminished his career by having to take it a step further. He would have already had his place in the Hall and done it with class.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

David, hate to burst your bubble, you are purpetuating a myth about Bond's testimony. This has been hashed over a million times on the SABR-l list and I think is the first topic that has actually been banned, but the Chronicle story that claims to have evidence that Bonds admited to using steroids has been misreported and misinterpreted. Anyone that has been on the SABR-l the past few years will know what I am talking about.

The reality of the situation is that people ahve already made up their minds and they are either convinced he used them or give him the benefit of the doubt regardless of the truth of the situation is.

As mentioned in an earlier post, where is the outrage over Clemens. Just because he doesn't ahve misreported info about supposed steroid use does not mean he is clean. He shows all the signs that Bonds does, but no dares say a bad word about Clemens.

One final note, if steroids is what made Bonds a great player, then why isn't baseball being overrun by the steroid fueled freaks from the WWE?

Jay



I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Andrew-

I played organized baseball including a minor league stint as well. The fact is that a person will gain weight naturally. Explain to me why I had to eat 5-6 full meals per day and lift for about 3-4 hours per day when I was a college athlete to try to put on weight. Now at age 32, I eat alot less, I don't lift 10% as much, I play a sport recreationally 2-3 times per week still (including baseball in a regional wood bat league with mostly college players still), and I now weigh about 225-230 without being much overweight at all. Explain that to me. You cannot assume that Bonds took Steroids just because he weighs 40-50 more pounds. People's metabolisms really can slow down tremendously as in my case. When I was in college I threw about 85-88 MPH consistantly (LHP), and hit with little power but some power. I was in ALOT better shape. Now I can throw harder and I can hit the ball at times 400-450 feet with a wooden bat (stronger). Now I can easily admit when I do start and pitch a complete game it takes me about a week to get back to normal. This is due to the fact my arm is going threw more stress and I am not in shape. My point being.......you can anturally put on weight and get stronger with age. I never took so much as creatine which was popular when I was in college.

regards,
Jason

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

IN this thread if you are going to make strong statements then your name needs to be next to your post...How can folks make strong statements that start with "I" when we don't know who you are? ..it's just the rules.....thanks

[Archive]

Posted By: Cobby33

Like him or not, Bonds has revitalized baseball (for that matter, so has McGwire, Sosa, etc.). Also, keep in mind that the "substances" these people (I'll narrow my comments to Bonds) are not "illegal" per se. There are many elements which may make their use illegal, but the way in which they were used were not necessarily illegal on their face.

If it weren't for Bonds, et al., AT&T Park (formerly SBC Park, Pac Bell Park) would be empty, as would many other ballparks around the country. Further, there would be dozens of minor stars who wouldn't play to their potential without being surrounded like legends like Bonds and the like. Little League, as we know it, would nearly be nonexistant-it's suffering as it is even with the long-ball being prominent in the game.

This is not to say that it should be "ok" for players to violate League rules and the law, but let's let the League deal with them. If we don't like their conduct, we don't have to go to games or watch them on TV.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

Most everyone is right here and most everyone is wrong.

As you age your metabolism slows and your natural levels of testosterone drop. It becomes harder to maintain a specific weight and level of strength without increased work, and at some point the diminution in performance overwhelms even the hardest work. Most athletes until relatively recent times lacked the training, skills and resources to crank up their training regimens and to reconfigure what they do to combat the lack of resilience you have as you age. I am in better condition at 40 than I was at 35 because I started a program of really strenuous yoga. My weight has crept upwards, though. Many athletes eat like crap and work out without sufficient guidance relative to their bodies when they are young, but youth compensates. There are a lot of athletes in a lot of sports, not just baseball, who are extending their productivity naturally, so the folks who indict all older athletes as steroid junkies are just plain wrong.

By the same token, there are athletes out there who use banned or illegal substances to enhance their performances. Big Mac got caught with a now-banned substance. He did nothing illegal or against the rules at that time. Palmiero plain cheated and got nailed. Bonds may have used steroids (I think he did and I don't buy his claims of ignorance, but that's IMHO). The folks who denigrate the accomplishments of older athletes are right as to some of them.

There are also other effects to consider. Read Bill James. He concludes that Aaron's phenomenally long production is partially a park effect (moving from unfriendly Milwaukee to Atlanta in 1966). I think the same is true for Bonds. There are friendly confines out there in more places than Chicago. Pac Bell was designed with a chip-shot right field for lefthanded power hitters. Coincidentally, Bonds is one and there is a very good argument that he has benefitted from a change of venues for 81 games a year. When the team moved from Candlestick to Pac Bell in 2000, his power numbers spiked.

[Archive]

Posted By: Brett

Its not just Bonds with rediculouse stats in the past 5 or 6 years, look at Gary Sheffield's stats. Strange how he has bulked up and his stats are wayyyyy higher than previous years he played. Also, look at his age during this...

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

I agree re Bonds; he is a juicer.

My point was simply that not all athletes who have elongated careers are juicing just as not all who have them get there naturally. Training and nutrition have a lot to do with it. Who knows what Ruth might have done if he'd not abused himself so heavily. Or Mantle.

I'd hesitate to compare your weekend warrior clients to professional elite athletes, though. Just because a lawyer cannot gain muscle mass in his 30s doesn't mean an elite athlete cannot.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

I suppose Greg Maddux and Walt Weiss are juicers as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: Adam Smith

"I am done once again, any of you ever want to gain some Bonds like muscle I have some INJECTIONS waiting for you in my office!!!! Unless you prefer the CREAM!"

You distribute illegal steroids?

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

"Anna Kournikova, Chris Chandler, Vince Coleman, Jeremiah Trotter, Jeff Bagwell"

Inquiring minds want to know...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

J-

Seems like your clients performances were not benefitted from your services! I still think the Unit looks bloated!

[Archive]

Posted By: Anson

Here I go again:

Fact #1 Barry Bonds is a Hall of Fame talent and was long before steroid concerns

Fact #2 Barry Bonds is the only athlete in the history of ANY game or sport who has been significantly better after his 35th birthday, compared to before. (already mentioned)

Fact #3 Barry Bonds has always been controlling of his finances, business dealings, and image. ~spin~ It's hard for me to believe that he didn't know what he was taking and blindly took someone's recommendation.

Fact #4 Steroids have the ability to reduce inflammation, provide faster recovery from workouts, and allow for quicker muscle building. Greenies or any other product consumed by athletes, prior to the 1990s did not have an impact on natural performance on this level.

Fact #5 Bonds is under more scrutiny than others due to his historical approach to the media and the long-standing all-time records that he's close to breaking.



Again, Bonds belongs in the hall. Nobody can take that away from him. But, I believe he's tarnished his previous accomplishments by choosing to use these substances. For those of you who want to deny and defend Bonds, look at the big picture without your bias or liking to the player/team. While I can't say 100% that Bonds absolutely, without a doubt, used steroids.....I would bet a lot of money on it. If it looks like a horse, sounds like a horse, it's probably not a cow.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

JASON,

I will say it once again -- I AM SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. PLEASE READ MY POSTS AND PROCESS IT.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Andrew-


Why do you keep writing that? I never disagreed with your posts.

??

Jason

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

What about Clemens? I'll keep saying it over and over, if youa re going to get indignant about Bonds supposed steroid use, you better be just as concerned about Clemens possible use. He ahs all the tell tale signs of a user, but no one ever wants to talk about itbecause he is amedia darling, unlike Bonds.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Jason,

I posted pictures of Bonds and Ruth which was completely "tongue and cheek" in an effort to show the weight gain that Ruth also endured in his playing days when steroids did not exist. One picture of Bonds that I posted was of Bonds in his rookie season as referred to in your post with this phrase, "It is pointless to pull baseball cards of a 20 year old rookie and try to compare them to him now at 41. (below)"

Here's the full text:

"It's obvious to me that you guys that are grasping at straws never played the game at a higher level. It is pointless to pull baseball cards of a 20 year old rookie and try to compare them to him now at 41. Anybody that ages know by natural causes you gain weight naturally........metabolism slows etc. It has never been proven that Bonds took steroids. ........just admit the truth, he has become a better hitter with age. He has in his later career perhaps become the best PURE hitter of all time. It takes alot more than steroids to hit a 90MPH big league pitch over a 350-400 foot fence. The guy is naturally strong just face it. When I was 21 I worked hard eating 5 full meals per day trying to pack on wieght 6-2 170s). Now I am 32 and weigh 230 lbs and I never took steroids. By the way IU eat alot less, do not work out much as far as weight training and I am not that overweight. Face it.....people gain wieght naturally. I dont think Bonds takes roids. You people that think his records come off of taking steroids need to SERIOUSLY WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!"

Then I posted this:

"Jason,

I suppose you're referring to my baseball card...? I played four years of college baseball. I played against and with many current and former major league players. Furthermore, my point of the card is to look at how different Ruth looked 20 years later and he never used steroids. So I was actually supporting your argument. Sheesh."

Then you posted this:

"Andrew-

I played organized baseball including a minor league stint as well. The fact is that a person will gain weight naturally. Explain to me why I had to eat 5-6 full meals per day and lift for about 3-4 hours per day when I was a college athlete to try to put on weight. Now at age 32, I eat alot less, I don't lift 10% as much, I play a sport recreationally 2-3 times per week still (including baseball in a regional wood bat league with mostly college players still), and I now weigh about 225-230 without being much overweight at all. Explain that to me. You cannot assume that Bonds took Steroids just because he weighs 40-50 more pounds. People's metabolisms really can slow down tremendously as in my case. When I was in college I threw about 85-88 MPH consistantly (LHP), and hit with little power but some power. I was in ALOT better shape. Now I can throw harder and I can hit the ball at times 400-450 feet with a wooden bat (stronger). Now I can easily admit when I do start and pitch a complete game it takes me about a week to get back to normal. This is due to the fact my arm is going threw more stress and I am not in shape. My point being.......you can anturally put on weight and get stronger with age. I never took so much as creatine which was popular when I was in college.

regards,
Jason"

Am I the only one who is interpreting your posts as argumentative? My original post was to show that anybody can gain weight and change over time like Ruth did which is exactly what YOU are saying, too. Do I need to start taking my medication again?

Can someone please help me out here?

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Whomever J is he/she just had all of his/her posts deleted. When a moderator, including me, says you may not remain anonymous in a thread then that is what it means. It's not an option. Remaining anonymous is a sensitive issue to me since we have been over it so often and there are a lot of folks that don't like the board letting folks remain anonymous in the first place. If J posts again in this thread anonymously J will not be playing with us anymore. I would email J but J never put up an email. For the record, J, I can be reached during the day at lluckey@moredirect.com (my company got bought out).....once again, sorry folks....I just won't let this go on....best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: identify7

My wife and I argue about the lack of disagreement which we share, but I thought we were unique:

JASON,

I will say it once again -- I AM SUPPORTING YOUR ARGUMENT. PLEASE READ MY POSTS AND PROCESS IT.



Jason
(Login JasonD08) Re: O/T Barry Bonds announces retirement February 22 2006, 12:31 AM

Andrew-


Why do you keep writing that? I never disagreed with your posts.

??

Jason

[Archive]

Posted By: Jason

Andrew-

Again I stress that ym original post was not directed at you. I hgave no idea why you took it that way.

Jason