Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys

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Posted By: Dean H

If my memory serves correct I think Global tried that early on. They would put a holographic sticker with their grade on the back of a card that was already slabbed. I don't know if that is what happened with the Lajoie but just sharing what I remembered.

Edited. I see I was a little slow with the response. Wesley explained it correctly.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Rand,

Its hypothetical as I have never showed any of my cards to Kevin.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

Unless you are willing to get a second opinion on all 25,000 cards in your collection, it is incongruent to be so obsessed with getting a second opinion on the 25,001 card in your collection.

The best way to get a second opinion on a graded card is to send it in for review. Alternatively, if you are looking for another opinion, send it to another grading service for crossover. Lastly, you could always breakout all of your 25,000 cards and send them in raw for a clean slate.

My advice, use your self as the second opinion. Buy cards that look great in the holder and don't worry if it looks bad to someone else using a spectron microscope.

CB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

I do things my way--there are plenty of dealers I buy from that would be happy to make my purchase contingent upon Mike or Kevin or whoever I choose approve the card.

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Posted By: pas

I think someone could spot obvious alterations without removing a card from a slab, but I am not sure anyone could express a definitive opinion that a card was NOT altered without examining the edges outside a holder. If Kevin or others disagree I would be interested.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

Mike Baker gets paid for his opinion, quite different from Kevin.

Speaking of which, Mike Baker is among the best if not the best. He has an amazing eye. He is also one of my favorite guys in the hobby. I would rather you use him as your second opinion.

So how many of your cards are you going to cross into GAI holders?

CB

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Posted By: Steve Murray

And therein lies the beauty of a free enterprise system. The parties are free to negotiate terms to their mutual satisfaction.

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Posted By: peter chao

I agree with you, also I think the grading cos. use cheap plastic. The card looks good but the plastic is merely translucent and not clear. Furthermore, the plastic scratches, after a while you start wondering whether the scratch is on the cardholder or the card.

Peter C.

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Posted By: pas

Novus Plastic Polish No. 2 does wonders for anything but the deepest scratches.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

I would pay both Kevin and Mike for their opinion--probably the same amount--why should there be a difference?

I too think Mike has an amazing eye, I think he is the top grader in the hobby and I consider him a personal friend.

I am trying to build over 100 vintage psa 8 and better sets Charlie--crossing some over would set me back--saying that Mike has authenticated packs for me and a number of cards that PSA does not grade.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"I had visions of a slab within a slab LOL."



It been done!




Mike Baker and I were having some fun. The authentic grade is for the autograph which is on the outside of the PSA slab.

Kevin

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Posted By: peter chao

Let's say there was an amazing grader or grading company that you trusted, would you be willing to allow them to regrade the cards you bought 10 years ago?

Let's say that somebody else was picking up the tab for the regrading, an outside third party.

Would you be willing to take the chance that your PSA 9 was really a PSA 8?

Peter C.

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Posted By: pas

I guess we have had this discussion before but I don't see why "10 year old" cards are any more suspect than cards being graded today.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jim,

You are right to be paranoid about trimmed cards in holders. However, if the card does not look trimmed in the holder and it is graded as such, the market place is going to accept the card. No matter what any third party, that does not work for a professional grading service says.

If your goal is to build sets on the PSA registry, why on earth would you care what someone other than the graders at PSA think?

CB

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Charlie,

Because I want my cards to be completely unaltered--if it looked great but I knew it was altered I would not like the card.

I know for a fact others feel that way too Charlie.

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Posted By: pas

I think Charlie's point is that this is an art not a science, and that beyond the obvious cases it is a matter of opinion. Thus, it seems rational (at least to an observer) that the opinion that should matter most is that of PSA.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

Here's the problem, if you want to go through this new procedure with the cards you are buying. Why not go through the same procedure with cards you have already bought?

Peter C.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Peter,

Well said.


Jim,

You are an astute collector and I am not trying to tell you how to collect cards. But, I think layering professionally third party graded cards with opinions from non-professional third party graders is a slippery slope.

Anybody who is making definative judgements regarding alteration without seeing the card out of the holder, is making an educated guess. If you want to be as certain as you can regarding alterations, the card must be broken out of the holder for a proper evaluation.

There are some cards even out of the holder that exhibit both signs of originality and evidence of trimming. Some factory cuts look like trimming and some trimming looks like a factory cut. In this case, it is really a coin flip and it is not knowable wheter the card was trimmed or not. Therefore, it is up to a professional third party grading company to stand behind the desicion to grade it or not. And once the decision is made you have the power of the brand and credibility of said grading company as your insurance policy.

CB

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Posted By: barrysloate

Have we exhausted this topic yet?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Isn't Jim's position that he doesn't want to cost himself money by having his entire collection reviewed, but, at least going forward, does not want to spend large bucks on altered/slabbed cards? Why do these two concepts have to be mutually exclusive?

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"I think Charlie's point is that this is an art not a science, and that beyond the obvious cases it is a matter of opinion."


IMO grading is more an art, alteration detection is more science. In most cases the opinion is based on one or more objective findings. To answer an earlier question; it is much more difficult to inspect a card in a holder, taking about 4x as long. When the card is tight against the holder, sometimes an accurate assessment cannot be made at all. btw…hi Peter!

Charlie is correct, once graded, the flip now becomes more important than the card to some collectors.

Al – you are right I am not an “independent expert.” Although I have never claimed to be an expert (not exactly sure what qualifies) I an am independent, loyal to no company and cannot be bought or strong-armed.


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Alan Elefson

They are not mutually exclusive as Jim is asking auctioneers to stand behind every card they are consigned while he refuses to let his own collection be inspected in a similar manner.
Jim, this question has been asked before (and I cannot remember your answer), when you go to sell one (or all of your cards), will you stand behind it the way you are asking Barry and his consigners to do so? Will you "take the hit" on any cards that are reviewed and determined to be altered in some way? If so, then while I disagree with what you are requesting, I at least do not see any hipocracy (sic) behind it.
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

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Posted By: PS

Only Jim can decide what makes sense to him, and this is just a general observation, but I think many of us would view the position articulated by Jeff as inconsistent. If it makes a difference to you whether or not your cards are altered despite being slabbed, you can't just grandfather all the cards you already have.

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Posted By: Matt

Peter - while it might make a difference to you, that doesn't mean you're going to undertake the job of having it done; after all, you own them already; you're can't un-buy them.

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Posted By: PS

Matt but you can sell them. My point is if it is of such paramount importance not to own altered cards, and one thinks one needs opinions beyond those of the grading services to ensure that, then logically it seems to me one would examine cards one already owns as well as new ones or at least cards over a certain value. Just an opinion on a subject where there is no right answer.

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Posted By: Matt

Peter - I agree it makes sense for one to do it, but since there is a time and financial investment needed to make it happen, and you already own them, it might not get done. Now, if you were selling them, then I agree; but just to keep, I don't see anything hypocritical about it.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Matt, that's my point: Jim has like 20,000 slabs -- what is he supposed to do? Spend all that time and money and have them regraded? Can't he just decide going forward to be much, much more careful with how he spends his money?

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Posted By: Larry

I keep hearing about how grading companies are stricter now than they were 10 or 15 years ago, but the majority of cards I see in old holders are more harshly graded. A card resting in a PSA-7 slab from 1995 would in most cases rate PSA-8 now. Nowhere is this more obvious than with pre-war cards when you line the slabs up side-by-side and compare card edge and corner wear.

Just take a look at the T-205 cards that are rating PSA-7 now. The amount of chipping and corner wear they accept as Near Mint now is just plain idiotic. Ten years ago, those would have been resting in a PSA-6 holder.

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Posted By: peter chao

Larry,

Unfortunately PSA in particular has a lot of inconsistency. The reverse is also true. Some graded 10 years ago were given a lot of leeway and recently the same card is graded more leniently.

Peter C.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

Thank you--you articulated my position well.

Alan,

I have no plans to sell my cards. My son tells me he will take my collection to 200 sets PSA 8 and better.

The Two Peters,

I am not resubmitting my cards for the one millionth time no matter how much you want me too. There are a lot of big time PSA collectors(Merkel, Fogel, Spence, Branca , Louchios etc) and none of them are regrading their cards so knock it off now!

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Posted By: PS

Jim I personally do not care at all whether you resubmit your cards or not, so as you say, please do not ascribe emotions to me. I do think, however, since you raised the subject of getting second opinions on new purchases, it is a fair discussion to ask about how your views on the necessity of second opinions applies to your existing collection. The question also goes beyond your personal collection and may be of interest to others facing similar issues although on a smaller scale. Perhaps you have stated your views on this before but if you did I missed them, so I was genuinely interested. That's all.

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Posted By: leon

I don't see any of the gentlemen you mentioned talk so incessantly about altering and cleaning up the hobby therefore they are held to a different standard, imo, than someone like yourself who is "leading" the charge .....but from the rear. I will always feel that your mesmerization with the whole issue is due to the number of high grade cards in your collection that you feel are probably tainted. Please don't consider this a personal attack as it's not and I am sure you will aggressively deny my opinion...it's ok......regards

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Posted By: Lawrence

Jim C-

I have brought this up to you before and this maybe a sore spot so clearly I will mention this politely so you do not get defensive:

1-If you want to really clean up the hobby, you need to really look at your own collection first, have Kevin S(someone you admire) really go through your collection and let you know the % of cards that "could be tainted" even if you want them to be kept by your family. Maybe you will be surprised since many of your posted cards are OLD labels and even though you think two graders graded this, they were far more naive as to what was going on then than now and the standards were so much looser than currently....and some of your nice cards are possibly now considered overgraded including the T205 in an 8 PSA holder that has white at the tip.

2-NO one should be obligated to give a money back guarantee on BRANDED THIRD PARTY cards graded except for the grading services that put the cards in the holder. If you are unhappy with your purchase, CONTACT AND PRESS THE SERVICE TO HONOR THEIR DECISION, they put that card in that holder, no dealer did that. If you are so confident that the grading services are correct about your 28,000 cards percentage wise, then maybe you should feel that same way about the majority of cards comparably graded at the same ratio that others possess...or consider that maybe a given percentage of your high grade cards especially early ### cards may have been tainted, and maybe sold to you by those you think are so knowledgable........

3-There are quality tiers of auction houses and their reliability , no question, however there are many reliable dealers that sell at shows, e bay etc...and they are subject to the same rules that Barry Sloate has stated, we rely on third party graders to make the decisions of gradability. Collectors and Dealers are not responsible for that decision, and we are all paying for a branded product. If that was not the case why wouldn't you would crack all your cards out if you did not care? Certainly, Mr. Louchious, Spence etc. and other advanced collectors are very important to this hobby and are still buying what they need currently. They are continually active thru e bay, private sales or auction houses.

Currently PSA, SGC and GAI are all MUCH tougher now. I really do not know how much you currently spend in the hobby, nor is it my business, but those above mentioned are extremely important to the hobby NOW, not 5-10 years ago. I admire your collection and best wishes for you and your family.

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Posted By: John

Still waiting to hear what amazing cards Kevin has so skillfully passed by folks (SGC, PSA, GAI etc.) as Jim eluded too, or has this wives tale yet to be addressed? Kevin you should have no problems showing us some pictures or telling us some stories either…after all as you openly stated below.

“you are right I am not an “independent expert.” Although I have never claimed to be an expert (not exactly sure what qualifies) I an am independent, loyal to no company and cannot be bought or strong-armed.”

Eagerly awaiting your response, its go time I’m excited to see what you’ve done, and how you’ve helped our little hobby out or made it a safer place!

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I have no problem showing my various alterations that have been graded but as typical I find your arrogance and demeaning tone insulting to say the least.

Here are just "a few" examples of some cards that were not just slightly altered or simply soaked....those can always get past. These were testing the limits in various ways.

I can only imagine this will still not satisfy your relentless attempt to try and degrade and demoralize. I am quite sure that you will find some other way to continue your antagonistic questioning.

If you do some research you will find plenty of examples I have posted in the past. Is it not enough that I try to help by posting educational material?






Erasers are too easy. These were chemically treated instead. Seems PSA and SGC had no problems bumping the grades. I believe Cohen was also retoned.





Each of these cards had harsh or large stains removed with various chemicals. Each was bumped by two grades...Easterly was bumped 3 grades, it was a BVG 1.




There is still a clear mark left intentionally on back along with some ink loss. It was also retoned.




Graciously given to me by a collector friend. This card had a rebuilt corner and two "very obviously" trimmed edges. It took several steps and a lot of time to make it look normal. That includes giving the trimmed edges vintage-like cuts, which proves that a trimmed card can be made to look untrimmed... not easy to do at all.





Testing the limits, this card was put in about 6 different chemicals. The last one I thought would melt the card. It was submitted with such a strong odor that it was almost unbelievable that a hazmat team was not called. Instead they graded it a 6. There is also a very obvious stain that was partially left on the back.





Stains and marks removed with a bleaching solution and sent in without deodorizing or trying to mask the alteration. You can see a bleached-out spot on front. Also, I can still see the indentation marks on the back...yet it still passed.

________________________________________

The mother of all doctoring examples:


This was a T206 Rube Marquard card purchased with a huge glob of almost unremovable glue on the back, stained, dirty and dinged. In this condition it was virtually ungradeable and I doubt it would have even been slabbed "authentic" based on the relatively low value and poor condition.

In all, this card went through over 30 steps, again to test the limits. This goes far beyond doctoring.

It was placed in several different chemicals, bleached and rebleached about 4 times - each time using a different solution, toned and retoned a few times, dings removed, plus soaked dried at least a dozen times. The entire process took a couple weeks.

Here is the card in the middle of the process. Note the glue has been removed (not by water) and it is shown in one of the "many" bleached-out stages.



Here is how the card looked once completed. Submitted as you see it and without being deodorized.





If you notice there are no examples of GAI graded cards. Mike Baker (who I consider a friend and colleague) and I have a gentleman's agreement. Years ago he invited me down to Global's HQ and, after viewing a few very high-end altered cards, asked that I not try to get any past him. I have honored my word since. I now bring all my doctored cards to him. He gets full explanations and I reveal all my secrets. This is, in his opinion and mine, how the best gets better.



Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Kevin,

For someone who has dedicated himself to trying to help the hobby its amazing that you can get such abuse from people that know very little.
Of course he will say who me and turn his sarcasm to me but that's par for the course.

Thanks once again for trying to help the hobby Kevin. Your efforts deserve their gratitude not their abuse.

Lawrence,

I know you mean well but simply put its not going to happen--not by me and not by any substantial holder of graded cards. I am happy with my cards--they all look good to me and I don't intend to sell them in my lifetime and I plan to live another 30-plus years. My goals are for the grading companies to become more diligent and stop altered cards from getting into holders. For those that are already in holders what is done is done. Sorry to disappoint you.

Leon,

My friend--you seem obsessed on trying to figure out why I am doing what I am doing rather than actually getting out there yourself and take a stand at the practices of the auction houses. Stop trying to be a psychologist. Meant in the same spirit as your comments toward me.

In terms of leading the charge, I thought there was a good basis to go forward with a code of ethics to lead the hobby forward and even Mastro was dragged kicking and screaming to do something positive. I think Barry and Jeff had some constructive comments and perhaps one or two others but thats it. If people on here don't really care except for those who want me to resubmit my 28,000 cards then I am not going to press it.

Cheers,

Jim

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Posted By: Lawrence

Jim C-

I am not dissapointed, they are your cards but I would be interested in taking a random sample if they were mine just to get better insight to see what I have in problem cards...I hope you do not think that this is a personal gain for me, it really is not my intention nor do I go about under the pretext as someone that wants to revolutionize and clean up the hobby although I do not like the bad trimming that goes on.
I have been around many years to see through smoke screens and the hobby has many. Still, it is a great hobby and it is just that to many on the boards here.

You seem to be very knowledgable and fiscally intelligent, sometimes less said on open forums has more impact to many when you do post. There are many opinions that get posted here but one thing that seems to be shared by many that view, perceived pompousness does not add to leadership quality.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks Lawrence--good luck.

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Posted By: John

Kevin,

Thanks for posting, interesting but I’m not sure what I’m taking from it or can take from it. Yours is going to be a thankless job to a degree even you have to understand that. It’s easy to post pictures; I could do the same and claim that I had squeezed by all these grading companies with the above cards or any other picture of a graded card. What does it prove? If we take your word for it maybe it proves something, but if we don’t know you from “Adam” it could be just another guy on here with an eraser and an overblown story telling ability.

Kevin not that it’s your fault, I do find your posts interesting to say the least. But I’m sorry if I can’t blindly leap into the you’re the super card expert, especially when people like Jim say that your opinion matters over that of an established company such as any of the named grading companies or auction houses. It’s going to take a lot more than handful of pictures and one line blurbs to garner you that respect.

I hope you can see my point, you may find me arrogant ok whatever, but what I find even more arrogant is that you and or Jim think your word is more valuable than established auction houses and or grading companies from someone who is little more than a basement card experimenter or hobbyist. For you or Jim to expect any auction house to take cards back on your word alone is a bit arrogant…once again no offense but who are you again?

Maybe I am hard on you who knows if I am I’m sorry, it’s just my take an my point of view hope you can understand where I'm coming from?

Regards,

John

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Posted By: John

Jim,

Don’t you get tired carrying that cross around all the time? I may be sarcastic Jim, but god you’re boring and predictable, I could set my watch to you guy. LOL

“For someone who has dedicated himself to trying to help the hobby its amazing that you can get such abuse from people that know very little.”

Kevin if you’re looking at your arrogance meter it may have just peaked.

Yes, perhaps one day Jim I will be as knowledgeable about this hobby as you and Kevin are…one can only hope I guess.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

What did I tell you!!!--my prediction came exactly true. I love it. Only this time he attacked you too Kevin. Lets see Kevin, you basement experimenter you, when did either one of us claim you were better than SGC or PSA. Only in the Wonka world can you offer yourself selflessly to help the hobby and get ridiculed for it.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Wonka, Barry, and Dan are virtually the only guys on Net54 that have any objectivity and creativity when they post. So guys don't attack John or you will have an off-the-wall poster breathing down your backs.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Wesley

John is right. There are a lot of guys who mess around with card and paper experiments in their basements. Some of them do this for fun (like Kevin) and others do it to slip by grading companies for profit. What makes Kevin more knowledgeable than the other guys who get cards past the graders? Because he makes a few posts on message boards? Nothing personal against Kevin because he seems like a very nice guy (Hi Kevin) but to think his opinion carries more weight than established grading companies or auction houses is ridiculous.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Wesley,

You are setting up a straw man here--nobody said his opinion carries more than SGC or PSA --you are just repeating Wonka.

Take the time to read all of Kevin's post on the other message board and I think you should change your mind.

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Posted By: Wesley

Jim, Kevin has never reviewed any of your cards. You have never seen Kevin's work. How do you know of his expertise?

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Posted By: peter chao

Wes,

The unfortunate part about having grading companies look at all your cards is that there's a whole new generation of collector's that have no idea on how to grade cards on their own.

I'll put my personal judgment up against 75% of the PSA graders, because I have been informally grading cards for 20 years and I'm not blind yet. Although, I do feel that I am getting more and more nearsighted.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Wesley

Peter C,
We're talking about more than grading cards and assigning numeric grades. We're talking about sophisticated alterations vs. basement experiments and what can get past the graders.

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Posted By: barrysloate

As Wes said you can be sure there are plenty of people out there who make a handsome living from their basement experiments. And loads of these cards have gotten past the graders.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Yup--Peter is better than 9 of 12 of psa graders. Hard for me to say anything else here. Peter--maybe I should have you look at my cards instead of Kevin

Wes--it is based on all the stories related to me, correspondence between us and what I have read here and other places. I think he is an expert--does he know more than the graders--certainly about some things--heck, he has taught the best grader in the hobby a few things.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Who is the best grader in the hobby?

-Al