Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[999Tony]

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied, but there may be another candidate superior to Koufax, dunno if he has been mentioned --Hal Newhouser.

Hal Newhouser --7
Lefty Gomez --7
Chris Sale --7
(may be others with 6-7 I stopped looking)

Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

Babe Ruth --2 (both as hitter so really zero as pitcher) (not adjusting for lack of all star games since we don't know if he would have been selected)


Hal Newhouser really did have a great 2-3 year peak,

His single highest year WAR is higher than Koufax's best year. Led in wins 4 out of 5 years. Led in FIP 4 years in a row. His hitting isn't much better than Koufax's, but he does have more career WAR.


ok yeah he gave up 14 runs in the 1945 world series, but went 2-1, that's a much better winning percentage than Koufax's 4-3.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied,

yeah, let's ignore the fact that the first All Star Game was in the final year of Grove's peak. So call it a tie.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied, but there may be another candidate superior to Koufax, dunno if he has been mentioned --Hal Newhouser.

Hal Newhouser --7
Lefty Gomez --7
Chris Sale --7
(may be others with 6-7 I stopped looking)

Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

Babe Ruth --2 (both as hitter so really zero as pitcher) (not adjusting for lack of all star games since we don't know if he would have been selected)


Hal Newhouser really did have a great 2-3 year peak,

His single highest year WAR is higher than Koufax's best year. Led in wins 4 out of 5 years. Led in FIP 4 years in a row. His hitting isn't much better than Koufax's, but he does have more career WAR.


ok yeah he gave up 14 runs in the 1945 world series, but went 2-1, that's a much better winning percentage than Koufax's 4-3.

Well, the problem with all of this is you are obviously using bWAR, which is a garbage, made-up stat that shows its flaws by having lesser players like Newhouser or Grove come out ahead. You must use twar and twar only. Then you will see that nobody compares to Koufax.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Allstar team selections for lefties.

Doesn't settle Koufax vs. Grove since they are tied.....
Sandy Koufax --6
Lefty Grove --6

And yet again, Koufax has a built-in advantage: there were 2 All Star games played in 1959, 1960, 1961, and 1962.

Grove was the best left-hander of all time.

And this:

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

yeah, let's ignore the fact that the first All Star Game was in the final year of Grove's peak. So call it a tie.

[999Tony]

ok -- I concede that the all-star game is not a single uber stat that should be used to decide the greatest lefty pitcher of all time. And that the only thing the stat is useful for is to tell us how many all-star games a player was selected for.

I thought it was obvious I wasn't serious about that, but I guess not. Sorry, was just having fun with garbage stats. Luckily it isn't possible for me to derail this thread.

But leaving aside all-star game appearances, it does seem that Newhouser is a pretty good comp for Koufax for reasons other than the similar number of all-star games. His peak extends beyond 1945, so that alone shouldn't be a disqualifier.

[FrankWakefield]

Best "all time" isn't Best over a 5 year period. Koufax was a great pitcher, dominant for those last 5 years. Hall of Famer for certain, and I wish that being that caliber of player was still what it took to get into the Hall.

But Lefty Grove carried a franchise for 5 years longer than Koufax pitched, he started 45% more games that Koufax, and won 82% more games than Koufax. All time has to mean all time, not single season, not peak 5... (and if it was based on a single season 31-4 and a 2.06 ERA isn't paled when compared to 27-9 and 1.73)

[cammb]

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by cammb

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

IF is one of the biggest words in the English language.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by cammb

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

Only if we aren't allowed to imagine that Spahn never went to war, Grove didn't ruin his arm, Randy found control earlier, and Waddell wasn't mentally challenged.

But you keep trying, so I will concede: Fantasy Koufax is way better than any pitcher who had an actual career. No doubt about it!

[HistoricNewspapers]

Originally Posted by cammb

Imagine if Koufax pitched 5 more years at his prime and not retire after posting a 27 win season. This conversation would be over

One could also imagine him pitching his entire career at Coors field in the live ball era, then he would never even have a thread dedicated to him...and only the people who recognize the importance of context, would see his value.


But really, what you said is the entire point. He would need five more elite years just to get into the discussion, because only then would he would begin to match the length of dominance of Unit or Grove.

Until he puts up those five more elite years...he doesn't belong in the conversation of all time best lefty.

[G1911]

If we're going to rate based on people's fantasies, then literally anyone can be proclaimed the greatest ever. If Walter Johnson had pitched with his left arm, he would be the greatest lefty ever. I nominate him as a result.

Pfeister had the lowest career ERA of a lefty, and a better whip and FIP. With context removed, why isn't he the greatest, Koufaxers?

Or if career stats don't matter, because longevity doesn't favor Koufax at all, and only peak does, then why isn't it Schupp?

I once heard from someone that somebody who faced him said Lefty Leifield was unstoppable! If anecdotes are our basis, why not him?

Even removing longevity, ignoring context of time and place, taking all the ridiculous claims for Koufax no matter how many principles of logic they violate, he still doesn't come out #1. The "best of all time" and "my personal favorite" are not synonyms; they are wildly different things.

[cammb]

[QUOTE=HistoricNewspapers;2004405]One could also imagine him pitching his entire career at Coors field in the live ball era, then he would never even have a thread dedicated to him...and only the people who recognize the importance of context, would see his value.


But really, what you said is the entire point. He would need five more elite years just to get into the discussion, because only then would he would begin to match the length of dominance of Unit or Grove.

Until he puts up those five more elite years...he doesn't belong in the conversation of all time best lefty.[/QUOTE

You know nothing about Grove other than his suspect stats. Not many of us were alive when he pitched. You probably never saw Koufax pitch as well as most of you Koufax deniers. You rely on these made up metrics that some jock sniffer made up in his basement and you tout them as gospel the fact that he is a first round hofer and the youngest elected says it all.