T209-1 Contentnea ....Bourquise?

[Leon]

Hey guys and girls,
One of our esteemed lurkers sent a question and I would like to pose it to the board. (plus this is one set I am sort of collecting)...

"Any idea who in the he** this card depicts? Nobody named Bourquise (or any similar name) played for Rocky Mount in 1909 or 1910. Worse yet, he has "Fulton" on his shirt and there were no minor league teams in Fulton KY or Fulton NY or Fulton Anywhere Else in 1908, 1909, or 1910.

Who IS this guy?"

Thanks for any help......I am sure our lurker will be appreciative.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey guys and girls,
One of our esteemed lurkers sent a question and I would like to pose it to the board. (plus this is one set I am sort of collecting)...

"Any idea who in the he** this card depicts? Nobody named Bourquise (or any similar name) played for Rocky Mount in 1909 or 1910. Worse yet, he has "Fulton" on his shirt and there were no minor league teams in Fulton KY or Fulton NY or Fulton Anywhere Else in 1908, 1909, or 1910.

Who IS this guy?"

Thanks for any help......I am sure our lurker will be appreciative.

*

Leon, Lurker --- That's a good question, and I'm sure that one of our League historians will contribute.

I've checked both my Type 1 & 2 Contentnea's, and came up with a close match to the Bourquise player in type 1.
The type 2 player is Bourquin, listed with the Wilmington team.
Facial look, is very close. ... OK, historians ... go for it.

[caramelcard]

"came up with a close match to the Bourquise player in type 1"

What does this mean Joe?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Potomac Yank

*

Leon, Lurker --- That's a good question, and I'm sure that one of our League historians will contribute.

I've checked both my Type 1 & 2 Contentnea's, and came up with a close match to the Bourquise player in type 1.
The type 2 player is Bourquin, listed with the Wilmington team.
Facial look, is very close. ... OK, historians ... go for it.

Another tidbit from our friendly lurker.....I would prod him to come on the board but he's a bit busy I believe....


"Here's an added mystery - the "Bourquin" of
T209-2 is also misidentified - no such player played under that name either!"

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

"came up with a close match to the Bourquise player in type 1"

What does this mean Joe?

*

I've checked both my Type 1 & 2 Contentnea's, and came up with a close match to the Bourquise player in type 1.

The type 2 player is Bourquin, listed with the Wilmington team.

Facial look, is very close.

I looked at both cards, and they both facially looked alike.

If anyone has the type 1 Bourquise, and type 2 Bourquin ... and is not scan challenged like me ... please scan whichever one you have.

Uh oh, now we're being told that no such type 2 Bourquin was around the Wilmington team ... the plot thickins.

Hey guys. I only collect the cards

In comparison to some of our current major grader/authenticators mis identifyers --- those guys back in the early 1900's didn't do a bad job.
But they have made our research interesting.

Who were those mask men???

[rhettyeakley]

Leon, very good question, I am at work so most of my reference material is at home (& not in front of me) but the closest match I can find to either of those two names is there was a David Bourquen that played for the Bridgeport team of the Connecticut State League in 1909. I'm not saying this is the guy or anything but that s the closest I can come.
-Rhett

Edited to add, there was a Fulton, NY team from 1905-07 in the Empire State League but there isn't any info on the actual players for that team. It is conceivabe that Bourquen played for Fulton,NY in 1907 and went to CT by 1909 (not too far away). It is a stretch but not totally out of the question.

[rhettyeakley]

Just to muddy the waters a bit, there was also a player named Arthur J. Bourgeois that there is a record for that played in 1902 and then also in 1909 & 1910 --all for Wisconsin area teams.
-Rhett

[uffda51]

[Potomac Yank]

Now, does anyone have the scan ot the type 2 Bourquin?

[White Borders]

Originally Posted by Potomac Yank

Now, does anyone have the scan ot the type 2 Bourquin?

There is a T209-2 Bourquin in Lot 49 of the B&L Auction (No, I'm not the consigner).


And here's one from Card Pricer

[Bill Stone]

There was a Fulton, Kentucky team( Fulton Colonels) in the KITTY league in 1911, if that is of any help.

[Potomac Yank]

OK guys, what do you think of the facial similarity?

[FrankWakefield]

What Bill said... Fulton, Ky had a team in 1911, 1922-24, 1936-42, and 1946-55.

Fulton, New York had a team in 1910 in the Central New York League. Presidnt was L. T. Galusha. Teams included Auburn, Geneva, Oneida, Rome, Oswego, Fulton, and Cortland. The League folded June 3, 1910. This was a class D league, I don't see it in the minor league data base.

So does anyone have a Sporting Life for April or May of 1910? That might have some New York Central League box scores. I might have an issue from then, but it will take me a while to dig down to them. My lone reel of Sporting Life on microfilm is 13 Mar 1909 to 5 Mar 1910. I'll check the last couple of issues on that in a few days, but I doubt it would show any box scores.

So I think this guy Bourquise was with the Fulton team of the NYCL in 1910, then caught on down south in time for photos with Rocky Mount, then never stuck with the team because of an injury, home-sickness, his yankee ways, or something...

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, the only problem with that theory is that the T209-1 series is from 1909 not 1910.

Looking at the SABR minor league database it appears the player they are calling Bourquise & Bourquin is in their records as "Burke" (possibly a mistake?)-- A player named "Burke" was with Rocky Mount in 1909 and Wilmington in 1910.
-Rhett

[Matt]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Looking at the SABR minor league database it appears the player they are calling Bourquise & Bourquin is in their records as "Burke" (possibly a mistake?)-- A player named "Burke" was with Rocky Mount in 1909 and Wilmington in 1910.
-Rhett

Nice find Rhett!

[rhettyeakley]

I am back home and I figured while we are discussing this it wouldn't hurt to discuss the other playrs in the set as well as I still have many question marks.

From my list this is the best I can do on the full names of the players represented in the T209-1 set. As best I can tell there are 3 that made the Majors Booles, Crockett & McGeehan.

1. Charles Armstrong
2. Seabron Jesse Booles**
3. ?? Bourquise (Burke?)
4. John H. Cooper
5. John W. Cowell
6. Daniel Solomon Crockett**
7. Phifer Fullenwider
8. Hub Gilmore
9. H. H. Hoffman
10. J. J. Lane
11. P. L. Martin
12. Daniel DeSales McGeehan**
13. Ashley Franklin Pope
14. Charles A. Sisson
15. Charles Steubbe (mispelled Stubbe)
16. Martin Walsh (it could be Joseph Francis Walsh** but the picture looks much more like Martin)

** Played in the Majors

Can anyone add anything to this list?

-Rhett

[FrankWakefield]

Rhett, I'm not saying that the player depicted on that card is Bourquise. I don't know that.

I am saying that Fulton New York had a team in 1910. And that DEFINITELY is "Fulton" on that jersey.

Maybe we need to rethink an issue date for T209s and consider them as cards a bit later than thought, maybe not, I've not looked into that. I do know Mr. Lipset thought the set to be in the 1910 timeframe. He notes that Buck Hooker is shown with Danville, a team for which he played only in 1910.

And with a 1910 date for T209, the printers could have used a spring 1910 "Fulton" image for a summer 1910 issue.

[rhettyeakley]

Frank, you misunderstood my post I think. I was saying the T209 Color set (or T209-1) was from 1909. I went back and checked Lew's book and he states "Best guess at a date for this issue is 1910" he was just off by a year. The player selection & associated teams definitely dates this set to 1909.

You (and Lew) are correct that the T209 Black & White set (T209-2) is from 1910, this is the set that Lew was referring to that includes Buck Hooker.

-Rhett

[FrankWakefield]

Right you are, Rhett. Sorry about that, I was out in left field...

Still, that player is in a "Fulton" uniform. Fulton, New York seems likely; but it could be for an independent Fulton team from New York or Kentucky... Forgetting the issue of who he is, that definitely says "Fulton" on there.

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

Right you are, Rhett. Sorry about that, I was out in left field...

Still, that player is in a "Fulton" uniform. Fulton, New York seems likely; but it could be for an independent Fulton team from New York or Kentucky... Forgetting the issue of who he is, that definitely says "Fulton" on there.

*

Frank, no one is disputing that, the question is ... "Fulton" ... where, and does anyone have a picture of this Burke guy?

[FrankWakefield]

Well I'm still thinking Fulton, New York. But that questions the color Contentnea time line. Maybe the cards were printed in 2 bunches and one bunch was in 1910... Maybe the color cards are all 1910 cards, that's what I think.

[Leon]

Another follow up from the gentleman I am helping...


"Notice one of your guys found the "Burke" with both teams that Bourquin/Bourquise played for - I thought of that one myself but usually in misheard/misspelled names of the time they aren't made so much more amazingly complicated, they're made simpler. In short, Bourquin/Bourquise would more likely become "Burke" on a card rather than the other way around. Of course, maybe the cards were right and the league recordkeepers were wrong!

By the way, it's pretty evident that the Crockett card listed for T209-2 doesn't exist. Nobody's ever seen a scan even though it was reported, third hand, in 1987."

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Leon

Another follow up from the gentleman I am helping...


"Notice one of your guys found the "Burke" with both teams that Bourquin/Bourquise played for - I thought of that one myself but usually in misheard/misspelled names of the time they aren't made so much more amazingly complicated, they're made simpler. In short, Bourquin/Bourquise would more likely become "Burke" on a card rather than the other way around. Of course, maybe the cards were right and the league recordkeepers were wrong!

*

You're right about the other way around but do you suppose some one back 1909 said, "Let's have some fun, and play with the heads of 2009."

------------------

By the way, it's pretty evident that the Crockett card listed for T209-2 doesn't exist. Nobody's ever seen a scan even though it was reported, third hand, in 1987."

*

Lurker, whoever you are, you're a gem!

You hear that Ralphie

[rhettyeakley]

Leon, I have found w/ lower level minor league stuff often times that when there is only a last name on the SABR website that the info & stats come directly form the Spalding Record Book. It is very likely that the guys real name is Bourquise or Bourquin (or even the Bourquen I mentioned earlier) and the Spalding guys are the ones that called him "Burke" just to make their lives easier (I mean who is ever gonna notice?)

-Rhett

[smokelessjoe]

Here is a last name match for "Bourquin", for what its worth???

[Leon]

Nice find Shawn. It says he was one of the new men for that year....

Rhett- Who's gonna notice? We are, of course

[rhettyeakley]

Leon, it only took 100 years for someone to notice!

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Here is a last name match for "Bourquin", for what its worth???

*

Thank you for digging up the article and being on board for this one.

Let see, on April 8 1909 according to the article, a Davis Bourquin was listed as part of the Bridgeport Giants team.

1. How long was he on the team?
2. Where did he go from there?
3. Fulton? ... Fulton KY? ... Fulton NY?? ... Fulton???
4. Was it before, or after Bridgeport?

[smokelessjoe]

No problem guys, glad to be of some help!

Not sure if this can be tied to our guy... But with stuff like this going on, who knows how many cards have the wrong name!

I had to cut the article up in order to make it readable. The bottom part is the END of the article.

VERY INTRIGUING ARTICLE

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

No problem guys, glad to be of some help!

Not sure if this can be tied to our guy... But with stuff like this going on, who knows how many cards have the wrong name!

I had to cut the article up in order to make it readable. The bottom part is the END of the article.

VERY INTRIGUING ARTICLE

*

Shawn, you're top drawer ... you're the cats Meow!

That is indeed interesting.

It just goes to show us that you didn't need a jet to get between Bridgeport, CT ... and Rocky Mt, NC. back in 1909.

BTW, there was a Lloyd that pitched for Lynchburg, he was a lefty, whereas the Fayetteville Luyster was a righty pitcher.

The plot is showing a light at the end of the tunnel ..... go get 'em historians!

[Merkle923]

Nice work, Detectives.

The best part about Lloyd and Luyster is that they are both on T209-2 cards.

The way this stuff usually shakes out is that if you have seemingly contradictory evidence about player identities, all of it (or some of 'all of it') is true. Thus Bourquin/Bourquise/Bourquoise/Burke probably showed up under all these names, was in camp with Bridgeport after having been photographed with a team in Fulton (maybe the minor league club in Fulton, NY), then wound up in the Carolinas. The next question of course is, why is he one of the guys in a sixteen-card set? (the answer to that one is probably the one we always overlook from our days of total-saturation info: they made a card of him because somebody had a picture of him.

Just another aspect that makes T209 (both -1 and -2) two of the weirdest sets of all-time. Just two other notes: if you google (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...iIKJXQ8QaJ46hZ) "Pfeifer Fullenwider" you will find a copyright-expired photo of the guy in T209-1, wearing his uniform from Columbia of the Sally League, inside the Polo Grounds in New York. The Giants apparently drafted or bought him late in 1911 and he reported wearing his minor league uni. Never got into a big league game, but got into a spring training photo with the Giants in 1912 (and apparently actually spelled his memorable first name 'Phifer').

So I'm the lurker, now appearing under my own name. And for goodness sakes, no politics. I promise, if you won't, I won't.

[chaddurbin]

ok just read leon's OP...

[Kawika]

The great-grandson of a ballplayer named Hick Munsell came on to the board a few weeks back and after doing a little digging into the NYT archives I saw that Munsell went to spring training with the Giants in 1912 at their camp in Marlin, Texas. The name Fullenwider came up several times in various articles and I was wondering if it was the same as the T209 guy.

NYT Jan 10, 1912; first mention of P.F. in archives (link to pdf file): http://tinyurl.com/ybn7gbr
NYT Mar 17, 1912; last mention of P.F.: http://tinyurl.com/ydyswps


This picture from the LOC site appears to confirm it.

[Merkle923]

I'm KO (suddenly I feel like I used to when I ripped off the "I'm Kaiser Soze" line for SportsCenter). Ask your esteemed moderator if you are dubious, or fire away with the If-You're-Him-Blah-Blah-Blah.

No clue on Rockythebulldog. Is it Pfeifer Fullenweider by any chance?

[chaddurbin]

yea i figured it out after reading leon's post.

you indirectly got me into vintage cards when you were a sports anchor on kcbs in the late 80's and you'd have a sports cards segment every sunday night (38 goudey heads up, '54 bowman williams etc)...thanks!

[Merkle923]

With Matt Federgreen from Beverly Hills Card Shop, whom I saw last March, in the same location. Good man.

Not as unlikely as the guy who wound up as one of my agents in the '90s, who had bought cards from me at the card shows in NYC in 1973 when he was 10 and I was 14 - but still pretty unlikely.

[Merkle923]

He's another guy in the 1912 Giants' team picture, apparently taken at spring training at Marlin, Texas. Fullenwider's in there (wearing his UNC sweater, no less) and a pitcher named Bert Maxwell who actually made it briefly - spring training must have been 23 guys, only two or three of whom they cut (quite a change to today). They're all wearing Anger's Ice Cream Cone caps (although Mathewson has his on backwards). The pic is in the fabulous freezer vault at Cooperstown; I saw it about three months ago...

[Leon]

Hey Keith
Welcome aboard. As I said in our emails, and you know from reading the board, we are a timid group . Some day I would love to see your vintage collection. I hear you have a lot of shiny stuff too but I am not quite as interested in those. Getting back to the T209's.....here is my favorite one. I got it from someone you might know, Mike Berkus. I have shown it a bunch but never get tired of seeing it. The T209 sets are wonderful and thanks for the nice conversation on them...Take care now and see ya' round here..best regards

[barrysloate]

Hi Keith- welcome to the board. Hope you continue to hang around here!

[FrankWakefield]

Welcome Mr. Merkle.

Shawn, thanks for posting the scans of the articles.

And Leon, that is a great looking card of Fullenwider standing there with that Columbia "C" on his chest!!!

This has the makings of a great thread.

[Potomac Yank]

You certainly posed some interesting questions about an interesting weird set.
I love the background of some of the T209 type II photos.
Digging into the names of the players from that period, is quite an interesting experience.
While looking through the roster of the 1909 Rocky MT team, looking for the elusive, and slippery Bourguise/ Bourquin/Burke, (Now known as different user ID's) I spotted a name that stood out like the Hope Diamond.

Jim Thorpe

The User Names got to play with what I consider the most outstanding athlete of the first half of the Twentieth Century.
Unfortunately, it cost him his Olympic medals.
Boy, would I love to have a T209 Jim Thorpe card ... a real one that is.
I see that he went to Fayetteville also.
I'm now wondering if he also played at Fulton?

Welcome aboard KO .....

[rhettyeakley]

Joe, I would be lying if I said I haven't dreamt of finding a T209-1 of Jim Thorpe w/ Rocky Mount or even a T209-2 or T210-7 of him with either RM or Fayetteville. Now how much would these cards bring if one was actually found?
-Rhett

Good to see you posting here Keith!

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Joe, I would be lying if I said I haven't dreamt of finding a T209-1 of Jim Thorpe w/ Rocky Mount or even a T209-2 or T210-7 of him with either RM or Fayetteville. Now how much would these cards bring if one was actually found?
-Rhett

Good to see you posting here Keith!

*

There isn't a knowledgeable real collector, or semi brain picker out there that hasn't thought of it ..... but nobody wants to talk about it.

As for the price ... I don't even want to go there.
Shoeless Joe might run second to fast and shifty Jim Thorpe.
I've never bought a card thinking of what it might fetch later.

[Matt]

Keith - welcome to the board! I'm glad you've joined this active community of collectors. Perhaps you can post some of those pictures you mentioned that Cooperstown sent you that are missing IDs? As I mentioned last month, I think this board could ID most if not all of them in short order.

[Merkle923]

Sadly I don't they've scanned the "File Of The Unidentified" - but a lot of the remaining stuff seemed to be Town Teams of the 1800's.

As to a T209 Thorpe, I always had the impression that certainly for T209-2 he might have 'missed photo day' - he might've still been in the school year as the seasons began in the Carolinas. Since there are at least a dozen T209-2's that depict guys who never actually played in any games in 1910 (this includes those super rare Reeves and Steinbach finds), and since the cards show the first city for a team that switched venues in July, the cards were clearly made early rather than late.

So this means, I think, if there had been a T209-2 of Thorpe, it would actually be a numerically scarce card added late in the distribution process!

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by Merkle923

Sadly I don't they've scanned the "File Of The Unidentified" - but a lot of the remaining stuff seemed to be Town Teams of the 1800's.

As to a T209 Thorpe, I always had the impression that certainly for T209-2 he might have 'missed photo day' - he might've still been in the school year as the seasons began in the Carolinas. Since there are at least a dozen T209-2's that depict guys who never actually played in any games in 1910 (this includes those super rare Reeves and Steinbach finds), and since the cards show the first city for a team that switched venues in July, the cards were clearly made early rather than late.

So this means, I think, if there had been a T209-2 of Thorpe, it would actually be a numerically scarce card added late in the distribution process!

*

That's an interesting take on the Jim Thorpe Photo absence.
School time makes sense.

"So this means, I think, if there had been a T209-2 of Thorpe, it would actually be a numerically scarce card added late in the distribution process!"

KO, the above wouldn't bother me at all ... It keeps my hopes alive ... It's the ones that were added one hundred years later, those annoy me.

I have 219 of the T209-2's, and I'm happy to say that the Reeves, and Steinbach are among them.

There are many questions to the set, but the hunt is where it's at.

Still working on the Fulton connection.
Keep those questions coming.

Joe P.

[ethicsprof]

Welcome aboard KO.
You belong with fellow collectors as well as Chris M.,Rachel M. et al.

best,
barry

[Potomac Yank]

Holding my breath waiting to hear Ralphie say:

"I have seen three T209 Thorpe's"

[smokelessjoe]

Ok... I have re-attached the "Bourquin" article I found, because I wanted to point out the name "A. J. McCarthy" that is listed as one of the new guys. I found another article (1907) with the name "Andrew McCarthy" playing for the NEW YORK FULTON club. Both articles list McArthur as a pitcher as well. I guess this could be coincidence??? I will let you decide.

Edited to correct McCarthy

[Potomac Yank]

Originally Posted by smokelessjoe

Ok... I have re-attached the "Bourquin" article I found, because I wanted to point out the name "A. J. McCarthy" that is listed as one of the new guys. I found another article (1907) with the name "Andrew McCarthy" playing for the NEW YORK FULTON club. Both articles list McArthur as a pitcher as well. I guess this could be coincidence??? I will let you decide.

Edited to correct McCarthy

*

You come up with pieces of the puzzle that broadens the over all picture.
Glad to have you as one of the ones working on this case.
Thanks again.

On to Fulton!