N-167 Old Judge Proofs

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Posted By: Dan Mckee

Does anyone know of or have information on proofs for the 12 issued N-167 Old Judge cards ?

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Posted By: Andy Baran

Dan,

I don't know anything about proofs for this issue, but I am very curious as to why you would ask. Care to share?

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Posted By: Hankron

I'm assuming that you are talking about the local studio cabinet cards showing Old Juge poses. Your question was overly broad, but I will note that the original Old Judge images were made by local photography studios. Often times a local studio(in Kansas City, Philadelphia, for examples) took the photographs of the local players and often for other teams when they passed through. Some of the these 'proofs' (whether proof is an entirely accurate term is debatable, though I don't object to its use as a convenient term), are easy to identify because they have the Old Judge drystamp (embossed/no ink and usually on the image itself), though others do not.

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Posted By: Andy Baran

David,

The N167 Old Judge series that Dan is referring to are woodcuts, not photographs.

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Posted By: Hankron

I will admit that I misspoke (numbers dislexia?)-- though technically I was not totally off base as the N167s, though themselves not photographs, were based on original studio photographs (Did I get myself out of that one unscathed, Andy?)

Dan, please describe these supposed N167 proofs, as I have not heard of them either.

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Posted By: Dan Mckee

*** said this about these proofs: They are (of course)
one-of-a-kinds, photo-proofs from which J. Wood, the photographer,
copied to
the N167s. He faxed me photos of two of the player cards, which
measure
approx. 4.25" X 6.50". There are 13 players.......the 12 listed in the
N167
set, and Deasley, who was on the 1886 NY Giants team register that
year, but
does not show up in SCDs player listing, for whatever reason. There is
also
a cabinet sized, approx. 4.5" X 5.5", card with the words "N.Y. Base
Ball
Club, 1886. Photos and copyright by J. Wood, 208 Bowery, N.Y." It
really
looks pretty nice! The 15th and final piece to the set is a 4.25" X
5.25"
proof of Mgr. Jim Mutrie.....again, not listed in the N167s. Mutrie
does,
however, show up in the 1888 (N173) Old Judge Cabinets

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

has the set and had it on his table at the national for $65,000. The photos were not in the best of shape, clarity-wise. On another note, I sold a MUCH better quality photo of Dude Esterbrook from the same series to a well-known, as yet unnamed, Old Judge collector who frequents this board. It was crystal clear. The ones Terry has look somewhat cloudy and somewhat faded. BUT.........it is the 'whole' set I guess. Think that might have included a team cabinet as well. They were very interesting.

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Posted By: Dan Mckee

Tom, Are you sure it was $65K? because that isn't the price I heard. Dan.

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Posted By: Hankron

Two points.

Unless there is specific information (stamping, embossment, markings, provenance), it's difficult to impossible to say that such and such a photograph was the actual photograph used in the making of a card or print or whatever. Realize that a studio may have made a varity of a particular photograph, for varying uses, and only one would have been the actual art for a photo. I'm not saying that these are not the originals for the cards, but that one cannot say 'This is the same picture as on the card, so this photo has to be the proof.' Substantiation proof is needed. This view is backed by the fact that many of the 'N167' images were used on other products, including a newspaper woodcut.

Two: if these were the original photographs, they would be the 'original art' not 'proofs.' Meaning, they would be the original photographs that the woodcutter used to make the designs for the N167s.
A proof is basically a test print or test photograph, and not the original art.

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Posted By: julie

but it is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that the A35 Kelly (Goodwin Round Album) is taken directly from the photo used in the N173 set, even though it's a lithograph, and only head and shoulders.

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Posted By: TIK

The set you are referring to 13 cabinet sized cards, done by Wood, that the images were used for the N167 old judge cards. The group of 13 cabinet cards is 65K. There are 2 additional peices to the group that includes a larger size cabinet of Mutrie (by Wood) and a cabinet sized team card of the New York team that utilized the same 13 images that are shown on the cabinet cards, which would add an add'l 10K to the price. This group was obtained as a group along with a paper (actually cardboard thickness) stating Wood studios, 1886 New York baseball team. Overall a fantastic group!!! Each individual cabinet also has the mark of Wood studios!!!!
Scans available if anyone is interested -
Terry