Slightly OT - 1982 Topps Blackless

[ALR-bishop]

I agree with Doug on the blackless set being done at 396. The 4 proposed Blackless "variations" all recently showed up for sale on ebay by the seller who touts them in the description in this thread. All sold for large sums but not to the same buyer, so there may never be a master 400 set . I actually have one of the 4 and a couple of other print differences in a couple of my other cards from that set

We need a Variation Convention

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

We need a Variation Convention

To my way of thinking, it's pretty easy :

Are there DIFFERENCES in the card that are explained by a DIFFERENT printing of the card?

I predict a semantics arguement.

The 1952 Mantle is a perfect example, because I don't think it's generally considered to have a variation. There are obvious DIFFERENCES on the card that could only happen with two completely different printings of the card.

The newly discovered 1963 variations have cropping differences that prove there were two completely different prints of each card.

The 1958 Herrera is an inking issue, NOT a different version of the card. It's nothing but a print dot.

I don't actually like the fact that 1982 Blackless are called variations, they are in fact, just like the Herrara, print mistakes, BUT because the autograph is completely missing instead of just random spots (like when there are blank spots in borders, or parts of letters missing like the Herrera) I grudgingly go with it.

If I ever have 15 copies of the 1952 Mantle, and I want to buy a new house. I will have each of them graded by some schmuck with a degree in plastic holder technology, and then I will point out every little print dot as a "SuPeR RaRe variation/ ErRoR!!!!!!!" in my ebay listing.

Can one of you guys slap some sence into me, if I ever go that far over the edge?

Doug

[steve B]

But a variation doesn't have to be a different printing. The missing top line variations from 81 Topps are just from different places on the sheet. I'd bet the 52 Mantle is also a double print with differences.

I collect a couple really obscure variations.
1988 Score second print run where the tufts of pulled cardboard from the diecutting were moved from the corners to about 1/4 of an inch in.
really not that easy of a subset to find. I haven't had access to a huge lot of 88 score so I'm not sure just how tough they are, but they're not as easy as you might think.

And 1991 Topps which has 3 different types of ink on the back. One that glows under UV light, one that doesn't, and one that turns a very dark red under UV. The last is actually fairly tough, only about 20 in roughly 10,000 cards. (Yeah, for 91 Topps that's a pretty small sampling and someone else probably has a couple monster boxes of just those.)

Plus a few other odd variation things, different holograms on UD cards, 93 Ud with 3 differnt gloss patterns on the reverse....stuff like that.


Somewhere I still have the Ralph Nozaki variation catalog. Interesting stuff, but not as extensive a listing as we have today.


Steve B

[ALR-bishop]

I have 3 version of the 52 Campos---regular back, black star and regular back with missing upper left front border ( which was highlighted in a recent SCD article.) The latter is a print defect. Is the black star a print defect ?

To be a variation does the card have to be intentionally changed to correct a defect ( the Spahn 59 DOBs), or to update the card ( the 59 trade/ option cards) ? Are the yellow letter 58s defects or variations ? The 69 white letters ? Is the 59 Ramos on ebay now just an error ? ( I have one so it is not unique). Are the 3 59 Sullivans all defects or is one a variation ? Are the 62 greenies variations or just a second print run by a second production company ? The 80 yellows and the no name Pyor from the same year ? The 73 Manager cards ?. The number of differences/variation in the 91 set is staggering. The 90 No Name Thomas and related cards missing some black ink ? The 82 Blackless are clearly a print defect, but they made it into the SCD Catalog

If they end up in the SCD catalog, I get them ( although unfortunately I have stayed a bit beyond it in some cases ) Having completed all the Topps sets, it is how I get my collector amusement these days. When they make it into the Catalog, they often then make it into the Registry. If they get there, a lot of people want them, whatever they are. Mr Lemke can break a lot of hearts

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

If they end up in the SCD catalog, I get them ( although unfortunately I have strayed a bit beyond it in some cases ) Having completed all the Topps sets, it is how I get my collector amusement these days. When they make it into the Catalog, they often then make it into the Registry. If they get there, a lot of people want them, whatever they are. Mr Lemke can break a lot of hearts

I tend to agree, some of you may know me as the guy who thinks that each 1963 peel-off has three back variations, so I stray a bit, too.

Doug

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by steve B

But a variation doesn't have to be a different printing. The missing top line variations from 81 Topps are just from different places on the sheet. I'd bet the 52 Mantle is also a double print with differences.

A double printing, from different locations on the sheet qualifies as a different printing, by my definition.

Doug

[steve B]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

A double printing, from different locations on the sheet qualifies as a different printing, by my definition.

Doug

I think of a different printing as coming from a different mask, or different plate, or run at a different plant. Just one of those things where even a simple attempt at a definition has a lot of room for interpretation.

The Mask is the group of negatives assembled on opaque paper that's used to expose the plates.

To answer ALRs questions by my thinking
Spahn 59 and trade/option cards - variation, different mask,and hence different plate and printing.
58 yellow letters 69 white letters - Variation, different mask again
59 sullivans - at least 2 are variations, it would be really unusual for a print problem to eliminate the circle without also affecting the c. I hate to say impossible, but nearly so. The missing period is a bit tougher to figure, but it's probably not just a defect.
62 greens - variations for sure, probably printed at two different times. I'm not positive, but I believe some of the listed variations will be only normal, and some only green.
80 yellows /pryor - probably errors. I haven't seen one in hand, but it looks like a color got missed. I wasn't aware of them till I just looked them up. Time to check the set.
73 manager cards - Variations, once you look close, they're more different that it seems at first glance.
90 no name Thomas - A tough one to figure. I've only seen one, and it struck me as an error because the black was missing over an area that looked like a torn bit of paper got in the way. But that sort of thing usually happens once and then the next sheet gets a black printed area where ink has soaked into the paper assuming it stayed on the plate or blanket. That there are multiples of it makes me think that it's a scrap of paper that got between the mask and plate during exposure. Probably found and replaced very quickly.

The 82 blackless are a missing color error, just missing the black which was printed last.

91 Topps is totally insane. The big batch I had also yeilded a misprint I thought I'd never see, partial wrong backs. Not the off center ones that turn up from time to time, but Manager cards with the redish background being from a players card. So the black was correctly printed on a sheet that had the wrong red back. If anyone collects unlisted 91 Topps variations I'd be interested in comparing lists.

I also collect unusual marks that come from wear on the plates, usually scratches.

Steve B

[ALR-bishop]

I have a long list of the 91 variation/errors I have accumulated that I could send you. I could also send you color copies of my 80 Yellows and Pryor.

With the exception of the 3d Sullivan ( no period), I have all the others we have been discussing, including the Blackless set. I have gone a little overboard on these things.

For example, for 1953 collectors there is a variation of card 123, Byrne, in which the printing on the back is white or black, and card 247, Sandlock, can be found with a recurring defect in which the front left border bleeds into the card picture. It is similar, although more pronounced, to the overpriced 59 Ramos "variation" on ebay now, which is also recurring because I have one of them. The 59 set has a couple more of these too. The 58 set as well

I agree there are cropping differences on the 73 Manager cards, as well as colors, but are the cropping differences different than the recently highlighted 63 differences.

Fun stuff. No right or wrong answers. Collect what you like and if it ends up in one of the catalogs or the Registry it is a bonus

[doug.goodman]

Hi guys -

I have gone thru my 1982 sets of individual cards and uncut sheets to confirm that there were mistakes on the list of existing blackless cards that I have been using (the "Zenithum" list), and that I had previously posted. Thanx to Steve Leone for assuring me that the Jackson IA card did not come with a blackless variation, prompting me to see what other mistakes I had. A list of the changes is as follows :

#049 Woods – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#084 Stennett – confirmed as A type (previously listed as B type)
#114 Landreaux – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#237 Kuntz – confirmed as B type (previously listed as A type)
#301 Jackson IA – confirmed as NOT listed (previously listed as A type)
#409 Cooper – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#430 Blue – confirmed as B type (previously listed NOT LISTED)
#492 Price – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#507 Harper – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#568 Pettini – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)
#602 Patek – confirmed as B type (previously listed as A type)
#764 Swisher – confirmed as B type (previously listed as C type)

Summary by type :
1 A type is deleted from the list (Jackson IA)
2 A type change to B type (Kuntz, Patek)
1 B type changes to A type (Stennett)
1 B type is added to the list (Blue)
7 C type change to B type (Woods, Landreaux, Cooper, Price, Harper, Pettini, Swisher)

Let me know if I missed somethng,
Doug



CHECKLIST of ALL 396 DIFFERENT CARDS in a COMPLETE SET of 1982 TOPPS BLACKLESS

8 RICH DAUER "B”
9 RON GUIDRY "A"
10 RON GUIDRY IN ACT "B”
11 GARY ALEXANDER "C”
12 MOOSE HAAS "A"
13 LAMAR JOHNSON "B”
14 STEVE HOWE "A"
17 DARRELL EVANS "B”
18 FERNANDO ARROYO "B”
20 GARRY MADDOX "A"
24 DAVE FROST "C”
26 JORGE ORTA "C”
28 JOHN URREA "C”
31 TOM SEAVER IN ACT "A"
35 WILLIE AIKENS "A"
37 DAN GRAHAM "C”
38 CHARLIE LEA "B”
39 LOU WHITAKER "C”
40 DAVE PARKER "A"
42 RICK SOFIELD "C”
48 BOBBY CASTILLO "C”
49 ALVIS WOODS "B”
50 BUDDY BELL "A"
52 LARRY ANDERSEN "C”
54 RON HASSEY "A"
55 RICK BURLESON "A"
60 TONY ARMAS "A"
64 LYNN JONES "C”
65 TERRY KENNEDY "A"
67 RICH GALE "B”
68 ROY HOWELL "C”
70 TIM RAINES "B”
71 ROY LEE JACKSON "A"
72 RICK AUERBACH "C”
73 BUDDY SOLOMON "C”
74 BOB CLARK "C”
77 MIGUEL DILONE "B”
78 GEORGE MEDICH "B”
80 JIM PALMER "B”
81 JIM PALMER IN ACT "C”
84 RENNIE STENNETT "A”
87 MATT KEOUGH "B”
88 BIFF POCOROBA "C”
89 STEVE HENDERSON "B”
90 NOLAN RYAN "B”
91 CARNEY LANSFORD "A"
92 BRAD HAVENS "B”
94 ANDY HASSLER "C”
95 OZZIE SMITH "A"
98 TERRY BULLING "C”
99 BARRY BONNELL "B”
100 MIKE SCHMIDT "A"
101 MIKE SCHMIDT IN ACT "C”
105 KIRK GIBSON "A"
107 WAYNE KRENCHICKI "C”
109 DAVE REVERING "B”
110 CARLTON FISK "A"
112 BILLY SAMPLE "A"
113 STEVE MCCATTY "B”
114 KEN LANDREAUX "B”
115 GAYLORD PERRY "B”
116 JIM WOHLFORD "C”
117 RAWLY EASTWICK "C”
119 JOE PITTMAN "C”
120 GARY LUCAS "B”
122 JAMIE EASTERLY "C”
123 DANNY GOODWIN "B”
125 DANNY AINGE "B”
127 LONNIE SMITH "A"
128 FRANK PASTORE "C”
130 JULIO CRUZ "A"
131 STAN BAHNSEN "B”
132 LEE MAY "C”
134 DAN FORD "C”
135 ANDY RINCON "B”
136 LENN SAKATA "B”
137 CAPPUZZELLO "C”
138 TONY PENA "C”
140 RON LEFLORE "A"
143 MOOKIE WILSON "A"
147 DENNY WALLING "B”
150 TED SIMMONS "B”
155 OTTO VELEZ "A"
157 STEVE CRAWFORD "B”
158 BRIAN DOWNING "C”
159 LARRY BIITTNER "C”
160 LUIS TIANT "A"
170 JIM BIBBY "A"
172 BILL GULLICKSON "B”
173 JAMIE QUIRK "B”
174 DAVE FORD "B”
175 JERRY MUMPHREY "B”
177 JOHN ELLIS "B”
178 DYAR MILLER "B”
179 STEVE GARVEY "A"
181 SILVIO MARTINEZ "B”
183 MIKE PROLY "B”
185 PHIL NIEKRO "B”
189 GLENN HOFFMAN "B”
190 J.R. RICHARD "A"
192 BRODERICK PERKINS "A"
198 CHRIS SPEIER "B”
200 GEORGE BRETT "A"
201 BRETT IN ACT "C”
204 GARY ROENICKE "B”
209 GARY LAVELLE "A"
210 KEITH HERNANDEZ "B”
211 DAN PETRY "C”
212 MARIO MENDOZA "A"
215 MIKE KRUKOW "B”
220 MANNY TRILLO "B”
221 JIM SLATON "B”
222 BUTCH WYNEGAR "A"
223 LLOYD MOSEBY "A"
224 BRUCE BOCHTE "A"
225 MIKE TORREZ "C”
228 SAM MEJIAS "B”
230 WILLIE WILSON "A"
232 TERRY CROWLEY "B”
233 DUANE KUIPER "A"
234 RON HODGES "B”
235 MIKE EASLER "A"
237 RUSTY KUNTZ "B"
238 KEVIN SAUCIER "A"
239 JON MATLACK "B”
240 BUCKY DENT "A"
241 DENT IN ACT "B”
245 KEN REITZ "B”
247 PED GUERRERO “A”
251 FRED LYNN "B”
255 TONY PEREZ "B”
256 PEREZ IN ACT "C”
257 LARRY HARLOW "B”
258 BO DIAZ "B”
259 RODNEY SCOTT "A"
260 BRUCE SUTTER "A"
262 DOUG BAIR "C”
264 QUISENBERRY "B”
265 AL BUMBRY "B”
267 KURT BEVACQUA "C”
270 RUSTY STAUB "A"
272 BUMP WILLS "B”
275 BOB WATSON "C”
278 JOHN LITTLEFIELD "B”
280 BEN OGLIVIE "C”
281 JOHN VERHOEVEN "B”
282 KEN MACHA "C”
283 BRIAN ALLARD "C”
285 SPARKY LYLE "A"
287 ALAN BANNISTER "B”
288 GARRY TEMPLETON "C”
289 BOB STANLEY "B”
290 KEN SINGLETON "A"
297 CLINT HURDLE "C”
299 STEVE TROUT "A"
300 REGGIE JACKSON "A"
302 DOUG FLYNN "C”
305 DON SUTTON "B”
307 RANDY BASS "C”
308 CHARLIE MOORE "A"
310 MIKE HARGROVE "B”
312 LENNY RANDLE "B”
313 JOHN HARRIS "C”
315 BURT HOOTON "A"
317 DICK RUTHVEN "A"
323 BILL LEE "B”
324 STEVE DILLARD "C”
325 JOSE CRUZ "B”
328 ED FARMER "A"
329 U.L. WASHINGTON "A"
330 RICK WISE "C”
332 DON ROBINSON "A"
334 AURELIO RODRIGUEZ "B”
335 JIM SUNDBERG "B”
339 MIKE SCHMIDT ALL STAR "A"
340 DAVE CONCEPCION ALL STAR "A"
341 ANDRE DAWSON ALL STAR "A"
342 GEORGE FOSTER ALL STAR "A"
343 DAVE PARKER ALL STAR "A"
344 GARY CARTER ALL STAR "C”
345 VALENZUELA ALL STAR "C”
349 GEORGE FRAZIER "C”
352 DICK DAVIS "C”
354 ROBERTO RAMOS "C”
355 DWIGHT EVANS "A"
357 BUTCH HOBSON "A"
359 JIM DWYER "B”
360 LEN BARKER "C”
363 BOB MOLINARO "C”
365 BILL MADLOCK "A"
370 MIKE NORRIS "A"
380 DAVE STIEB "A"
382 JOE SIMPSON "C”
385 KEN FORSCH "A"
387 TOM VERYZER "A"
388 JOE RUDI "A"
390 EDDIE MURRAY "C”
397 KEN BRETT "C”
398 MIKE SQUIRES "C”
399 PAT ZACHRY "A"
400 JOHNNY BENCH "C”
406 AL HOLLAND "C”
409 DON COOPER "B”
412 LUIS LEAL "A"
413 DAN MEYER "C”
415 DON BAYLOR "C”
417 PAT KELLY "B”
419 STEVE STONE "B”
420 GEORGE HENDRICK "A"
421 MARK CLEAR "C”
422 CLIFF JOHNSON "A"
423 STAN PAPI "C”
424 BRUCE BENEDICT "A"
425 JOHN CANDELARIA "B”
430 VIDA BLUE “B”
440 JEFF BURROUGHS "A"
442 BRUCE KISON "C”
443 MARK WAGNER "C”
445 LARRY PARRISH "B”
446 WAYNE GARLAND "B”
448 DARRELL PORTER IN ACT "C”
450 JACK MORRIS "C”
451 ED MILLER "C”
459 BRUCE BERENYI "B”
460 JACK CLARK "C”
461 RICH DOTSON "A"
462 DAVE CHALK"C”
463 JIM KERN "B”
464 JUAN BONILLA "B”
465 LEE MAZZILLI "A"
467 MICKEY HATCHER "C”
468 FLOYD BANNISTER "C”
472 OSCAR GAMBLE "A"
475 ALAN TRAMMELL "C”
476 BRIAN KINGMAN "A"
477 STEVE YEAGER "B”
480 STEVE CARLTON "B”
481 STEVE CARLTON IN ACT "C”
484 IVAN DEJESUS "C”
490 DENNIS ECKERSLEY "B”
492 JOE PRICE "B”
493 CHET LEMON "A"
494 HUBIE BROOKS "A"
495 DENNIS LEONARD "A"
496 JOHNNY GRUBB "A"
498 DAVE BERGMAN "C”
499 PAUL MIRABELLA "A"
500 ROD CAREW "A"
501 ROD CAREW IN ACT "B”
503 JULIO GONZALEZ "C”
507 TERRY HARPER "B”
510 FERNANDO VALENZUELA "A"
511 RUPPERT JONES "A"
512 JERRY DYBZINSKI "B”
515 LARRY BOWA "B”
518 GARTH IORG "A"
519 GLENN ADAMS "C”
520 MIKE FLANAGAN "C”
521 BILL ALMON "C”
523 GARY GRAY "C”
524 TOM HAUSMAN "C”
532 TOBY HARRAH "B”
534 DAVE MCKAY "B”
536 RAFAEL RAMIREZ "B”
540 ANDRE DAWSON "B”
541 BARRY EVANS "B”
542 NED YOST "C”
543 BILL ROBINSON "C”
547 ROD CAREW ALL STAR "A"
548 WILLIE RANDOLPH ALL STAR "C”
549 GEORGE BRETT ALL STAR "C”
550 BUCKY DENT ALL STAR "C”
551 JACKSON ALL STAR "A"
552 SINGLETON ALL STAR "A"
553 WINFIELD ALL STAR "A"
554 FISK ALL STAR "A"
555 MCGREGOR AS "C”
556 MORRIS ALL STAR "A"
557 GOSSAGE ALL STAR "A"
560 DOUG CORBETT "C”
563 ROSS BAUMGARTEN "A"
564 DOUG DECINCES "A"
565 JACKSON TODD "C”
567 BOB BABCOCK "C”
568 JOE PETTINI "B”
569 WILLIE RANDOLPH "B”
573 RICK WAITS "C”
574 MIKE RAMSEY "B”
575 AL COWENS "C”
579 RICK MAHLER "C”
580 BOBBY BONDS "B”
581 RON REED "B”
582 LUIS PUJOLS "B”
585 ROLLIE FINGERS "C”
588 DALE BERRA "B”
590 AL OLIVER "B”
594 RENIE MARTIN "C”
600 DAVE WINFIELD "A"
601 SID MONGE "B”
602 FREDDIE PATEK "B"
603 RICH HEBNER "C”
608 JERRY ROYSTER "B”
610 HENDERSON "C”
611 JOE NIEKRO "A"
612 GARY WARD "B”
613 JIM GANTNER "A"
615 BOB BOONE "A"
616 BOONE IN ACT "C”
622 DENNIS LAMP "C”
624 FERGUSON JENKINS "A"
625 HAL MCRAE "A"
626 RANDY JONES "A"
627 ENOS CABELL "B”
629 JOHN WOCKENFUSS "A"
630 JOE CHARBONEAU "B”
632 BRYAN CLARK "C”
635 RON DAVIS "A"
637 RICK CAMP "C”
640 CESAR CEDENO "B”
645 FRANK WHITE "A"
646 WHITE IN ACT "C”
648 JOSE MORALES "B”
649 KEN CLAY "C”
654 JIM MORRISON "A"
655 JOEL YOUNGBLOOD "A"
656 EDDIE WHITSON "B”
661 CONCEPCION IA "C”
663 HECTOR CRUZ "C”
664 DAN SPILLNER "A"
665 JIM CLANCY "C”
668 DALE MURPHY "B”
669 MILBOURNE "B”
670 STEVE KEMP "A"
672 BOB KNEPPER "A"
675 CECIL COOPER "A"
677 ALFREDO GRIFFIN "C”
678 TOM PACIOREK "B”
684 HAROLD BAINES "A"
685 BERT BLYLEVEN "C”
686 GARY ALLENSON "A"
690 DAVE KINGMAN "B”
691 DAN SCHATZEDER "C”
694 DAVE WEHRMEISTER "C”
695 WARREN CROMARTIE "C”
700 GEORGE FOSTER "B”
702 STEVE RENKO "C”
704 MICKEY RIVERS "C”
705 MICKEY RIVERS IN ACT "C”
706 BARRY FOOTE "B”
707 MARK BOMBACK "A"
708 GENE RICHARDS "A"
710 JERRY REUSS "C”
713 DEL UNSER "B”
715 WILLIE STARGELL "C”
716 WILLIE STARGELL IN ACT "C”
718 CHARLIE HOUGH "B”
720 GREG LUZINSKI "C”
721 GREG LUZINSKI IN ACT "C”
722 JERRY MARTIN "B”
724 DAVE ROSELLO "B”
725 AMOS OTIS "A"
730 GARY CARTER "A"
735 RUDY MAY "C”
737 REGGIE CLEVELAND "B”
738 DAVE ENGLE "B”
739 JOEY MCLAUGHLIN "A"
740 DAVE LOPES "A"
741 DAVE LOPES IN ACT "C”
742 DICK DRAGO "C”
743 JOHN STEARNS "B”
745 BAKE MCBRIDE "C”
747 JOHN LOWENSTEIN "B”
748 MARC HILL "B”
751 RICK HONEYCUTT "B”
753 TOM BROOKENS "A"
754 JOE MORGAN "A"
757 TOM UNDERWOOD "B”
760 BILL BUCKNER "C”
761 DAVE SMITH "B”
764 STEVE SWISHER "B”
765 GORMAN THOMAS "A"
767 ROY SMALLEY "C”
768 JERRY GARVIN "A"
769 RICHIE ZISK "A"
771 RICH GOSSAGE IN ACT "C”
775 BOB FORSCH "A"
776 MARK BELANGER "C”
777 TOM GRIFFIN "B”
778 KEVIN HICKEY "A"
780 PETE ROSE "A"
781 PETE ROSE IN ACT "A"
782 FRANK TAVERAS "A"
784 MILT WILCOX "C”
788 WOODIE FRYMAN "A"
790 LARRY GURA "A"
792 FRANK TANANA "C”