Negro Leagues Recognized As Major

[riggs336]

Big news.

https://theathletic.com/news/negro-l...b/Bn7XLfWXu7br

[packs]

Put Perucho Cepeda and Francisco Coimbre in the HOF already.

[triwak]

Wow! Gonna be a statistician's dream (or nightmare, maybe). Will be interesting to see how this affects the Hall. Since they've already had two or three dedicated Negro League committees to consider and evaluate prospective nominees, I wonder? Might need to prepare my bank balance!??

[Fred]

Here's a great place to start:

http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php

Bryant Gumbel had a really cool segment on this recently. The guy that put this together did a lot of research.

[riggs336]

Possible major shakeup of stats. Here's a paragraph from MLB.com:

Less clear at this stage, pending the discussions between MLB and Elias, is how rate statistics such as batting average or slugging percentage will be classified. For instance, Gibson (.365), Jud Wilson (.359), Charleston (.350) and Turkey Stearnes (.348) all had at least 3,000 career plate appearances and batting averages that would rank in the top 10 all-time, according to the Seamheads database. Their inclusion on that particular list would push the legendary likes of Ted Williams (.344) and Babe Ruth (.342) out of the top 10.

[steve B]

That will be a mess statswise.
My understanding has been that some of the competition was Major league, but some wasn't. I don't know what stats are counted and what aren't.

Are all the stats even known?

It's good to see the league get that recognition though.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Is it April 1 already?

This is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Again, appease, appease, appease. This time, I don't remember hearing of anyone fighting this non-battle.

We all know the impossibility of adding the woefully incomplete Negro (ahem, MAJOR) League stats to those of the much more comprehensive MLB.

A couple of things that sorely need pointing out:

Not every Negro Leaguer was of Major League caliber even if they had been welcome to play at the time. Anomalies like Gaedel and Faust aside, every single true major league player reached that level because a major league team felt they had enough talent to be there.

Let's not even get into the embarrassing lack of talent in the post-integration Negro Leagues. Are they Major Leaguers now, too?!

While we're at it, let's proclaim all those barnstorming games to be Major League! After all, the Sac City, Iowa Dry Cleaners are certainly of comparable talent to the traveling Satchel Paige All Stars. It will be incredible to see Satchel Paige with 10,000 career wins and second place Cy Young with a paltry 511. (Actually, Cy would be lower than second place!)

This is asinine. They need to leave it alone.

[Shoeless Moe]

The NBA presents The All-Time NBA Team:

Wilt Chamberlain

Michael Jordan

Meadowlark Lemon

Larry Bird

Curly Neal

[z28jd]

I've also never heard anyone make the argument that it should be a Major League. If it was happening, it was on a very low level. The problem I have here is that MLB has so many issues with "Major League" recognition already for cases that seem cut and dry. Why do they not recognize American Association teams and at the same time recognize them? The league was a Major League but any team that played in it isn't the same team as it is now? For example, MLB swears that the Pirates came along in 1887 out of nowhere, ignoring everything else completely. Same for Cardinals and the Dodgers, but then they will say that the Reds have been around since 1869 when everyone here knows that today's Reds and the 1869 Reds are not a continuous team.

They pick and choose and no one really questioned if the AA was a Major League. They don't recognize the National Association, but some people do. Why not figure that one out first? Do things in order. Fix the stupid mistakes you make daily first, then go for new stuff like the Pacific Coast League and Negro Leagues. The PCL had players who preferred to stay on the west coast. It was not a Triple-A caliber league during ALL of those years. In fact, the Negro League news came today with the fact that they are just recognizing some of it. You do realize if they recognized all of it, there would be female MLB players right now?

Today's news came with the note that the Major Leagues were decided in 1968 and the Negro Leagues weren't even given consideration. So you're saying at the same time that this decision was right and wrong? Approximately 99% of the people commenting on it today have zero clue as to whether this is a good decision or not, and that includes the joke of a commissioner who changes things on a whim like the game hasn't been around longer than the teenagers he's trying to reach have been alive. Part of my rant here has nothing to do with MLB status of the Negro Leagues and more "What is Manfred going to do next without putting thought into it?"

[Exhibitman]

Setting aside the politics of it gentlemen, I wonder how they are going to do it. Deciding which stats to include is going to be a nightmare operation.

[Jason19th]

This is very interesting. I am assuming that they are only talking about the Negro League “majors” and only considering league games. There is actually a pretty good statistical record for those games, especially when you get into the later 30’s and 40’s. What needs to be considered however is that while there are good records these seasons where pretty short. I doubt if Josh Gibson ever got more then 300 official league at bats in a season so it’s going to be pretty hard to do real comparisons.

The player this may have the biggest impact on us Minnie Minoso. He has always been stuck catch 22 for the Hall in so much as the voters were either supposed to look only at his NL stats or his MLB stats. If you combine both I don’t see how you keep him out of the hall

[packs]

I think the major accomplishment here is that the players of the Negro Leagues will be included among players of Major League baseball, which hopefully means more attention paid to their careers re: the HOF. Otherwise there is only this special once in a while vote on any of their merits. If they are now considered among MLB maybe that means they can be voted on during any Veterans Committee vote.

[Ricky]

If you take a look at the website that Fred mentioned above - http://www.seamheads.com/NegroLgs/index.php - you'll see that it has a pretty good database, and no, Satchel Paige doesn't have 1000 wins. But there is a drop-down on that site that lists all of the various leagues, and it's fairly easy to see which leagues should be included and which not.

Because of the shorter seasons, not many statistical lists will be affected - pretty much batting average, ERA and the like. Negro Leaguers didn't play enough games to challenge MLB numbers for career or season.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by packs

I think the major accomplishment here is that the players of the Negro Leagues will be included among players of Major League baseball, which hopefully means more attention paid to their careers re: the HOF. Otherwise there is only this special once in a while vote on any of their merits. If they are now considered among MLB maybe that means they can be voted on during any Veterans Committee vote.

I'm for anything that tries to right the wrongs of segregation, but I don't see how you can compare a league in which only 10% of the population could play with one in which 90% of the population could play. Obviously, there were many Negro League players of Major League talent, but to try to equate and somehow merge the leagues as a whole defies logic. And there were no doubt some terrific NL teams that would have been competitive in the majors of their time, but I would guess that on average most NL teams would have been of some level of contemporaneous minor league quality. To try to cram them all into the history of the major leagues seems to me a fools errand.

[todeen]

I like the idea. There have been some real stinker teams throughout MLB history, but games against those teams still count. I imagine top level teams enjoyed playing these teams so as to pad the stats. Exp: Cincinnati Reds who regularly threw a starting rotation of minor leaguers a couple seasons ago.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[jason.1969]

Best thing to happen in Baseball my entire life!

[Topnotchsy]

A number of points that are in response to many of the comments made.

There is extensive research on the caliber of play in the Negro Leagues, and generally it is assumed that the stars were roughly equivalent to the best in the Majors, while the leagues overall were in the range of AAA (or between AAA and the Majors). This is based on a wide range of factors including barnstorming tours, common opponents etc along with seeing how players who transitioned leagues like Jackie, Campanella,Doby and others did.

Note that there were a number of leagues historically that are considered Major Leagues. Along with the American League and National League, there was also the Union Association, the Players' League and the Federal League. And the range of talent in those leagues varied significantly. Certainly, in some cases, they were no better than AAA, which means that we currently have official leagues that were on par with the Negro Leagues and likely were worse.

The stats that will be included are only from 1920-1948 which was when the leagues were more structured and established, and before integration largely impacted the caliber of the teams and players. And it is only for league games.

There has been extensive research on Negro League games and box scores. There is definitely still uncertainly around stats, but we have uncertainty around stats from the 1800's as well and that never stopped us from including them. We've had adjustments to major stars. An adjustment to Ty Cobb's total (which is now reflected in Baseball-Reference) is in the article below.

https://sabr.org/journal/article/how...tting-average/

Regarding some comments about the push for this; while the average fan, who cares little about the Negro Leagues may not have heard anything about this, there has been a push for some time. I wasn't involved in the push, but think it is a good thing.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

A number of points that are in response to many of the comments made.

There is extensive research on the caliber of play in the Negro Leagues, and generally it is assumed that the stars were roughly equivalent to the best in the Majors, while the leagues overall were in the range of AAA (or between AAA and the Majors).

Stats accumulated against AAA level competition are not Major League stats.

I wonder what Ted Williams would've hit had he spent his career in Triple A leagues. Or any ML player for that matter.

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Stats accumulated against AAA level competition are not Major League stats.

I wonder what Ted Williams would've hit had he spent his career in Triple A leagues. Or any ML player for that matter.

Did you read my full post. There are leagues that are currently considered Major Leagues that were not on par with the American and National Leagues.

There were also eras in the American and National Leagues (like during WWII) where the caliber of player was significantly below "Major League" level. Unless you are arguing to remove some the 1800's leagues currently considered Major Leagues, and remove Hal Newhouser from the HOF (both his MVP awards and his 2 best seasons were against dimished WWII competition) then you aren't being consistent here.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

There were also eras in the American and National Leagues (like during WWII) where the caliber of player was significantly below "Major League" level. Unless you are arguing to remove some the 1800's leagues currently considered Major Leagues, and remove Hal Newhouser from the HOF (both his MVP awards and his 2 best seasons were against dimished WWII competition) then you aren't being consistent here.

You make valid points. As someone who is on the opposite side of this argument, I agree with nearly all of what you're saying here.

I would gladly see Hal Newhouser's HOF plaque relinquished, as well as removing some of the 19th century leagues (if it proves sensible after more continued study) if this latest decision was obliterated.

We all know how long it took Newhouser to be inducted. Frankly, it should never have happened. But then, from what you say, the superstars of the Negro Leagues were playing mostly against AAA caliber players. Should the same rules not apply to them? Who, then, was deserving of enshrinement and who wasn't? Imagine trying to apply logic and meagerly collected stats in an attempt to accurately award merit. Cobb, Ruth, Joe D., Gehrig and whoever else were not playing AAA players. In fact, guys like Ted Williams and Joe D. weren't really padding their stats playing against the diminished WWII players, either. It's all just a huge can of worms proving that everything should have been left as was.

The only thing that we can't do that much about is the diminished talent pool of the WWII-era MLB. It has to stand for the sake of continuity.

(Not that any of these things would ever happen, outside of perhaps the eventual exclusion of the 19th century leagues, but I'm doubtful of that as well.)

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

Did you read my full post. There are leagues that are currently considered Major Leagues that were not on par with the American and National Leagues.

There were also eras in the American and National Leagues (like during WWII) where the caliber of player was significantly below "Major League" level. Unless you are arguing to remove some the 1800's leagues currently considered Major Leagues, and remove Hal Newhouser from the HOF (both his MVP awards and his 2 best seasons were against dimished WWII competition) then you aren't being consistent here.

Yes and I take stats from the 1800s with a grain of salt, also considering all of the rule and equipment changes over the past 120+ years.

The war years created a circumstance that was unavoidable. Yes, the level of play dipped during those years. Same with the first couple of years after expansion.

But this is different - it is a conscious decision to elevate stats garnered against (by your own admission) Triple A competition to Major League status, across several decades.

[Casey2296]

Funny how many commentators think this decision is the greatest thing since sliced bread but never bothered to donate $78.32 to our Negro League Baseball Museum fundraiser challenge.

[Tyruscobb]

Ted Williams and Babe Ruth no longer have top 10 batting averages. As a result, their cards will probably take around a 30% dive. I’ll help soften the blow. If anyone is interested, I’ll buy your cards at just a 25% discount. PM me.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Ted Williams and Babe Ruth no longer have top 10 batting averages. As a result, their cards will probably take around a 30% dive. I’ll help soften the blow. If anyone is interested, I’ll buy your cards at just a 25% discount. PM me.

I don't have a big problem with that. Charleston, Paige, Gibson, Lloyd, Torriente, et al., were absolute studs. IMO, they were on par with their white counterparts. I dont think any cards will take a hit, nor do I think that NL cards go up much. There aren't enough of them to move the needle. This is not nearly the issue that some are making it out to be so far as I'm concerned. This should have happened years ago and it is to MLB's shame that it didn't.

[benge610]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

A number of points that are in response to many of the comments made.

There is extensive research on the caliber of play in the Negro Leagues, and generally it is assumed that the stars were roughly equivalent to the best in the Majors, while the leagues overall were in the range of AAA (or between AAA and the Majors). This is based on a wide range of factors including barnstorming tours, common opponents etc along with seeing how players who transitioned leagues like Jackie, Campanella,Doby and others did.

Note that there were a number of leagues historically that are considered Major Leagues. Along with the American League and National League, there was also the Union Association, the Players' League and the Federal League. And the range of talent in those leagues varied significantly. Certainly, in some cases, they were no better than AAA, which means that we currently have official leagues that were on par with the Negro Leagues and likely were worse.

The stats that will be included are only from 1920-1948 which was when the leagues were more structured and established, and before integration largely impacted the caliber of the teams and players. And it is only for league games.

There has been extensive research on Negro League games and box scores. There is definitely still uncertainly around stats, but we have uncertainty around stats from the 1800's as well and that never stopped us from including them. We've had adjustments to major stars. An adjustment to Ty Cobb's total (which is now reflected in Baseball-Reference) is in the article below.

https://sabr.org/journal/article/how...tting-average/

Regarding some comments about the push for this; while the average fan, who cares little about the Negro Leagues may not have heard anything about this, there has been a push for some time. I wasn't involved in the push, but think it is a good thing.

Thank you Jeff. I evolved through this thread and landed, pretty much; in agreement with your comments here.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

best thing to happen in baseball my entire life!

wow!!!!!!