Grade Tech- corner magnification question

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I think I like Grade Tech's idea of showing magnified corners, which I believe are shown at 20x scale. Corners are my personal gauge of preference on eye appeal, much more than edges, surface and even centering (within reason). My question is, what magnification do you folks generally use when examining cards? I thought PSA and SGC used 10x or 12x, and Brian Daniels sold me a 12x-15x loupe that works very well. My thinking is, if there is some standard magnifcation used different than 20%, shouldn't that be the one used by Grade Tech or any other company that dares to stand behind its assesment of corners? Any corner will look fuzzy at high magnification- why not stick to that which most people "in the know" use?

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Posted By: petecld

Todd,

<<Corners are my personal gauge of preference on eye appeal, . . . >>

Exactly my point of the last post! If your judgement is based on "eye" appeal then what are the micro images really worth to you? Seriously, think about it. If you trust your eyes then what added value are the magnified corner images? Will you now second guess yourself on how good of an assessment YOU can make on a card? That's a sad message to send a consumer.

I work in the printing/graphics field and there is no industry standard for loupe magnification that I'm aware of. It is based on need. Newspaper printers can get by with a 10X - 20X loupe. Printing that requires a finer level of printing will normally use 20X to 40X. I don't know if there is a standard magnification used by card grading companies.

You did kinda point out why this whole issue is really nothing but hype. Of course, if the existing and accepted companies use 10X or 12X then of course to out do them Grade-tech uses 20X and uses it as hype. THAT'S called advertising. If so then where does it stop? Will there be "tier" grading?

T206 Mathewson
Grade-tech 7 at 20X
Grade-tech 6.5 at 40x
Grade-tech 6 at 60X

Note: will all mean nothing if they can't authenticate a card.

If this seems silly then again, seriously ask yourself what added value does this offer you and what does it have to do with what you SHOULD be paying for - the SERVICE - the experience, ability, skill and consistency of the person doing the grading.

I'll be the first to admit, the micro-pics are a great gimmick for getting attention but they will need to do more than that to keep submitters coming back.

I know you would NEVER guess this by my posts but I do wish them well in starting this new company. They may very well prove to be top-notch graders and the collectors will flock to them. BUT, collectors will flock to them for the service they provide - NOT the pretty little pictures they put on the CDs or the holders.

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

"Power" is meaningless in this case, because you are seeing it blown up on a screen, which can have different resolutions, and you are sitting some random distance from the screen.

I looked at a link they posted, which was to a '54 Bowman. You could kind of figure out that the width of the "20x" scan was about half the width of the right border of that card.

Meaning, the area is really small.

I would be interested in knowing how long they spend per card doing all of the extraneous stuff. If someone has to sit there for a half-hour doing stuff, there is no way that they are going to continue grading for $7 per card.

bruce

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

I too am interested in the cost efficeincy of their enterprise, but back to my original question. Pete, I do trust my eyes first and foremost as to corners, graders be damned. But if I am looking at a scan, I might use more information from magnification to judge the corners. Believe it or not, I believe I am very familiar with what a NM corner would look like under 12x magnification, as I try and focus my collection on nm grades in pre-war, and nm-mt thereafter, so that's the vast bulk of what I see. Even after I buy cards I look at them under the loupe and assign each corner a grade, even if slabbed (although its tougher to examine slabbed cards). If I saw a magnification on a scan, wouldn't or at least couldn't that be helpful? I also have a feel for how SGC and PSA evaluate corners, and what a Nm or nm-mt corner usually looks like in their holders. If I saw a scan of magnified corners in my accustomed 12x power, is there a downside to my using that information?
Bruce, I recognize that the scans can be doctored, enhanced or otherwise image altered/ size increased, but that limitation exists anyway-- you can only trust a scan so far. Still, all things considered, is the info of such limited value that it is essentially a gimmick, or is there a place for this?

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...when people criticize someone or something, just to be critical or jsut to argue.

Some folks want to be harsh on Grade-Tech for providing scans of magnified corners. This is what is frustrating to me and I cannot understand...

You say in one sentence: "Existing graders use magnification to examine and grade corners."

Then, in the next statement you damn Grade-Tech for showing us a scan of the magnified images they are looking at when they make the grading decision to grade the corners... Huh?

If you admit right out that all the Graders look at corners under magnification to make their grading decision, why are you all wound up becasue someone is providing you with that view/information?

Why is it so bad to give people more information by which they can make an educated decision? Especially if it is the type and medium of information with which the graders themselves make their grading decision/calculation?

I personally WANT and WELCOME more information about my cards.

You ask: "If your judgement is based on "eye" appeal then what are the micro images really worth to you? Seriously, think about it."

Well, seriously, for my own judgement of that card, the images may be worth nothing for the purpose of "eye appeal". But, for other purposes, at least I can understand why the grader gave my card the grade they did. I can start to understand their view, their perspective, their reasoning, their argument. I actually want to know what they see, and why they award the grades on cards that they do. Grade-Tech seems intereted in bringing that info to me, the customer.

I am really lost as to why they need to be criticized for it, for bringing us increasingly more comprehensive information...

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...I cannot see how the information can be a "gimmick" if this is exactly the information and view that all existing graders use (magnification) to examine and grade a card's corners...

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I think the corner scans require interpretation, and they may not tell the whole story. A 20x scan isn't going to help with certainty on anything less than NM/MT, because other grades might have corner problems that are outside that tiny area.

For example, the '54 Bowman that we saw a link to recently has a ding on the upper left, which is not visibiel on the 20x scan or the 1x scan, it's only visible on the 3x scan.

If I had this 20x scan available on the back of the PSA flip, there are some cards I would have turned down. Sometimes you'll get an 8 with a worn corner. It might help identify some bad 7's that I've seen as well.

It could have a down-side of forcing the grader to be more mechanical. The corner grade is a major component, but not the only component, and sometimes you get a nice card with marginal corners or a marginal card with nice corners. It seems that the centering is a major factor in differentiating 6/7/8.

There is much to criticize here but at least it's an attempt to do something different and better.

bruce

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I criticize the absence of scale. A significant problem with grading standards is that there is no standard way to express scale when discussing corner wear. One man's "touch" is another man's "rounding".

The problem still exists with these corner scans. You don't know whether you are seeing a square that is 1/2 mm or 3 mm. You don't know whether the huge hunk of paper you see missing is a touch or light wear.

Below a certain grade, the corner scan will be useless or perhaps misleading. If someone sends in a card with heavy corner rounding, what good is a scan of a tiny square of that?

All that's necessary is some scale.

bruce

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Posted By: Grade Tech Services, Inc.

Thank you for initiating this discussion, Todd. It’s been quite interesting and there have been many good questions raised. Let me start by addressing…

Magnification. I don’t know of an industry standard that actually exists and I can’t speak to our competitors’ use of magnification in their grading methods. We simply did what folks in the hobby asked us to do. Capturing corners under magnification came up in almost every FOCUS group that we conducted. We arrived at 20x because hobbyists that we polled wanted as much magnification as possible without loosing the visual that they were actually viewing a corner. Dan Mathewson made an excellent suggestion to use a pictorial “corner index”, which we will be prototyping. Also, it’s important to note that a Gem corner looks as solid as a ceramic tile even at 20x, so it is quite easy to arrive at this sub-grade through magnification and is an invaluable grading tool.

Effort. Sure, it takes more time for Grade Tech to grade a card but aren’t the hobbyists, our clients, worth the extra effort? They are to us and we put a piece of ourselves into every production. We are fortunate to be very experienced in the technologies and the use of automated work flows to minimize the additional time and we are constantly trying ways to do it better and faster, without compromising our product.

Price. It was erroneously stated in this thread that our price is $7 per card. Our price is $10 per card but discounted to $7 for 5 or more cards submitted. This was our “Summer Special”, good though 9/1/02, as clearly stated in hobby magazine advertisements and our web site. After 9/1, you will need to submit 50 or more cards to realize the $7 per card discount. However, with 25 cards submitted a discount to $8.50 takes effect. Even without the aggressive discounts, we feel that the hobbyist is still enjoying the most for his/her money with the Grade Tech product.

Magnification, large scans; these are important grading instruments, as well as documentation for the customer. The feedback that we have been receiving for raising this standard has been wonderful and we have had numerous return customers as a result. However, I do want you all to know that we hear your observations and they are being noted any we thank you once again for expressing your thoughts.

Best Regards,

Lloyd Glavocich,
Grade Tech Services, Inc.

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Posted By: petecld

Dan,

What is frustrating is when people you have never met or talked to for a second believe they know what you are thinking and what your motivation is.

I'm so sorry I dared to disagree with you. This board is free to everyone to use and voice their opinions. You have absolutly no basis for making the statement, "...when people criticize someone or something, just to be critical or jsut to argue." Can you read the minds of everyone on this board?

If you want to know mine, or anyone elses, reasons for their opinion on any topic is it asking too much to ask him/her first?

What we say on this board will not effect the success of Grade-Tech. Their skills will determine the extent the market accepts them.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...about relative magnification in his post. At 20 power, all cards without "ceramic tile type corners and edges" (which rules out 99.999999999% of all pre-1980's cards) cease to be identifiable at grades other than 9 or 10. Cards graded 6 to 8 will have "powder puff" appearing corners and 1 to 5's will look like an indistinguishable snow drift. While magnification on the order of 20-250 power is an excellent analytical tool for identifing alteration, actually being able to focus in on and study the paper fibres themselves, keep in mind that under enough magnification, even the finest quality razor blade cutting edges, honed to exacting tolerances, appear like a craggy mountain range. Inclusion of 10 power corner images should have been sufficient, and far more indicative of the tools used by most grading services, which have become the industry normalcies, and more sensible. Eye appeal and comparative grading take place at normal focal lengths. This is a "naked eye" hobby. 10 power tools are used to analyze, not necessarily needed for mandatory use in order to enjoy this hobby. This isn't astronomy and it isn't micro-photography. Ten power is MORE than enough, anything more used for the grading itself, is unnecessary over-kill, or a gimmick as I'm sure PSA, SGC, BGS, etc. have all come to the shared conclusion of in using 10power for grading.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...whomever was weilding the equipment to do the card grading, STILL wasn't aware that the T206 "card" the were assessing was a REPRINT. So much for the benefits of 20 power mag. grading (SHEESH!!!).

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

But everyone on this thread except possibly Pete knows nothing about magnification: Koos' post as usual,sounds like it is stating something but what he does not know about magnification is that there are a few different types and if you do not use a loupe corrected for specific types of curvature when you observe specifically the edges of cards you will miss much......regardless of the degree of magnification. (((( I wrote a letter explaining this to a bunch of guys on here to whom I sold the "proper" loupes last year ))))) he also does not know that deliberate VISIBLE alterations are sometimes a smoke screen for other variables that can encompass DOCtoring of cards. In other words,a removed,stretched crease and/or pushing of ink and or air brushing can be less noticable if you manipulate cardboard slightly in other areas in order to create a distraction. This commonly occurs PRIOR to a card being sold encapuslated by a grading company..........also,dying and other methods of deliberate aging of cardboard,wood and ink and oil will not be detected by magnification regardless of how powerful the lens is.........as a certified gemologist I was trained in "color". Color has EXACT designations so you can explain via e-mail or on the phone what color (exact) something is!..cardboard,when processed,has EXACT colors e.g.. pms 342 et......hue creates the need for these designations or we would all have to rely on our subjective perception to determine any color outside of the solar spectrum,the true and pure seven colors. I personally can look at and feel a piece of paper or canvas ( I restore paintings ),and can come within a reasonable period of guessing how old it is.Last ramble.......if you have been collecting for more than let's say 25 years,you know little things......e.g. 1976 Topps Dennis Eckersley cards almost always have a small black print spot on the bottom name plate line.Many of us know of specific cards that are almost always off centered ( a 57 Topps Aaron ) or reverse any E-92 Croft's Cocoa for example.....and how many times have vintage collectors seen an E-102 Evers centered 99/1 top to bottom....many ,many times. Calling to suspect a card that does not "feel" right or even "smell" right and is well centered of this issue would surely cause me an extra five minutes of examination before I felt fully confident that the card is worthy of encapsulation....... experienced collectors know what cards from what issues have particular problems like the examples mentioned above........a magnifying lens of intense power will not help you with this type of knowledge.......and yes!!,I did state "smell" the paper..paper smells different depending on age and type of print processing on the raw paper itself....it would be fairly easy to submit cards to you folks that you would surely certify that I have restored. I am not certain as to what kind of equipment you use to review cards but if your close to WAYNE or TOMS RIVER let me know! I'd like to see it.. Point being......you may be attempting to rely way,way too much on magnification when it is only a fraction of detection by way of only one sense,your sight........and with magnification that if not curved properly distorts. Good luck! You need a vintage grader that has a little more than card shop owner experience! : )

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Posted By: DaveP

i've read this thread twice now. so far i agree with mr. matthewson because all you seem to be doing is being critical to the grading company for providing more information about a graded card rather than less information, like other graders. your position doesn't make sense to me either. i'm not defending the grader because i don't employ grading services but sometimes i buy cards that have been graded already. what grade tech is doing seems very customer-centered to me. as a buyer i would like as much info as possible and i can simply ignore any info that isn't important to me personally.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...if you're going to offer as part of your service, something unlike anyother grading service, something totally state of the art (TWENTY-power grading), since THAT aspect is fully incorporated into the process and determination of grade as an integral part, you need technicians as fully versed in the mechanical techniques and subtleties of magnification and interpretation as in art of card grading itself and identification of reprints, knock-offs, and FULL knowledge of all restoration applications. Unless you're dealing with a multi-million dollar, fully computer automated, scanning magnification, optical system where 99.99% of all idiosynchroses of magnification are adjusted/eliminated automatically, not being familiar with the types of distortion that can exist with different optics can give false reads. In other words, the more "Buck Rogers" you design your technical operations, the more you need Buck Rogers!!!

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Posted By: B C Daniels

you do not need MAGNIFICATION at all to detect triming........the primary subject and concers of your posts at least on this thread! ...... you way,way overate the use of one and do not seem to acknowledge that triming is the LEASt of alteration concerns for a grading service! or should be..........to easy to alter in other ways with minimal or no detection...THAT was the point! USE THE OTHER SENSES AS A LEARNING TOOL in discovering how people manipulate paper and get off the magnification concerns....

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...that it would both rattle your cage and ruffle your feathers. The one time that you made perfect sense that I am aware of, recognizing that, was all it took!! You didn't diasappoint me in the least. When you have an axe to grind, you're going to try to get the old stone wheel going, one way or another, whether by agreement or disagreement. And so it begins again.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...contains the word M-A-G-N-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N.

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Posted By: DaveP

it would seem this koos fellow knows quite a bit about trimming, given the other threads i read about his cards he auctions in pro holders.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...already graded by Pro as a result of an Ebay auction in June of 2000. This Koos fellow hasn't offered any BASEBALL cards OTHER than graded on Ebay for almost a year! But then, you already know that and just want to "play" I reckon', in which case I'd be more than happy to ante you in and give you chips. I can see where you would mistake the 52T Pro Mantle for being a trimmed card. Especially that it FILLS the entire holder card area and is OVER-sized if anything.

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Posted By: DaveP

in looking at the earlier posts you were the one saying bad things abour that pro grading company and your cards in their holders, then trying to auction those same cards later for a lot of money. you even said that everything in one of their holders must be assumed to be restored somehow. i was only going on your own words, sir. it looked like you knew you were selling cut cards and not wanting to have a more reputable grader look at them because they would expose them as cut. maybe that's not the right interpretation but that's just how it looked from all the postings. sorry if that was not the whole story. since pro graders have such a bad rap, is there a reason why you just don't have someone else grade them?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...of the "Flying Dutchman" (not Honus Wagner, the Ghost-ship.."Der Flegende Hollander")and circumnavigating the Board for another 3 to 4 weeks dancing the Limbo of the Lost on this subject, please just read all the posts on Pro grading, Dr.Koos, and associated ill-will posted on this Board over the last 10 pages or so. I think you missed alot between the opening coin toss and the ripping down of the goal posts.

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Posted By: DaveP

that's why i wondered why you don't just have a reputable grader grade your cards and the controversy would be over. you even admitted many times that pro is a bad grader, why not have beckett or psa or one of those graders grade them? (i assume they can be graded by someone else, even though pro graders already graded them once, right?) for cards worth thousands of dollars, it seems a good investment. it only costs $10-$15 to grade a card, doesn't it? or is it more than that?

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

as everybody elses!

Your above post went on and on about magnifying lenses....some of a type most people on this board no nothing about. But knowing about lenses does not mean you have a clue about cards and you don't. let's see How many times were you going to buy cards i suggested worth far more than the prices realized and you bought not a one of them??? many.....AHH! let's see,when discussing cards,which for you is hyper limited on this board,you are incapalbe of discussing anything other than the crap you bought,alleged law suits that do not exist 9 along with your professing to be a doctor you refuse to bring forth any evidence of when challenged by no less than five of the 15 people who wrote me inquiring about this....) sorry pal,doctors do not send checks without letterhead denoting their profession and I could go on.The true fact is your not wanted on this board,you piss people off and you lie continuously about everything and change and twist your stories,,,you kept items of mine forever I told you I needed to complete deals NOT having anything to do with drugs YOU profess to have been shot over.....I do not give a hoot what you write,get lost! I speak actually for everyone........your bogus story about where you got the NODgrass card from is yet another example of your bull. you got it from George Gober who is famous for altering them. maybe Doug can help you out with the details! I do not think anyone on this board will doubt doug allen's appraisal of any card misgivings......no you did not agree with me,you rambled again about the only thing related to cards you know anything about...triming and magnification...As I stated you do not need a magnifying glass to detect triming so who needs your spectra=scope and other lab magnifiers when with the naked eye and a three second glance,many on this board can confirm a trimmed card......axe to gring! I go all the way to where you are in new Yorkl from California and you turn your phone off 10 minutes from meeting me!!!! get a grip! everyone here has the same pile of axes! YOUR IDENTITY.....NO ONE HERE HAS A CLUE WHO YOU ARE THEY ONLY HAVE A GLANCE AT WHAT YOU ARE! And they are not wanting it........I work out of the home so people can plainly see why I can post at various times on any given day.....WHERE DO YOU WORK?????? No one knows on here now do they.......a thousand e-mails and fifty phone calls and I have no clue who you are.....except that you are an untrustworthy liar who lacks the self confidence to admit or confess anything! Selling 2seamer a altered 55 Mantle Bowman is not a mistake???? Do you have any idea how many letters i have received with complaints about you,your cards and your made up stories over the past three years! You forgot! I WAS THE ONE WHO INFORMED YOU THE MANTLE WAS BOGUS ON HERE! Axe to grind You solicit friendship and lie! Do you like liars? Knowing you,probably........but I do not......spare these guys your replies they clearly do not want it! You should move aside on things you know nothing about which includes how to lie about your occupation and cards for starters. You have no comrades on this board. You lost everyone a while back and should go elesewhere to play..nobody knows you or who you are anyway.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...How many times have you said on this Board, "I don't sell cards". Yeah...That's a horse-laugh. Sure YOU don't. You send them to OTHERS to sell for you replete with instuctions on what to describe, what to bust out of graded holders, etc.. What was that B., why do you buy so many SGC 80 T206s? Anyone remember all the E cards I auctioned last year??? Anyone have any idea just where I got those? I've still got scans of the inventory list in Daniels' restorer's hands. Anyone care to see the 1000 or so emails I'VE SAVED from this ultimate hippocrit and noted misanthropic pipsqueak with two broken wings, who can't even lift up a baby without squealing in pain, that threatens to "Choke people out" like some poor man's Marco Ruas. I've got dozens of emails from this General Tom Thumb showing before and after scans and descriptions of what was done to cards, right out of the BRIAN DANIELS RESTORATION LABORATORY, he owns that NOW reside in PSA holders and other's collections. Anyone doubt me???? "Help me out PLEASE, Marla's (the missus) out of a job, the baby's on the way, and I have to move some stuff". I helped this pathetic loser and I'm sorry I did. Now, he's kicking and screaming about 2 cards that I haven't had the chance to send back from the last load he sent me which I sold/auctioned for him (so he can keep up the pretext that he DOESN'T sell, only buys...what bologna!) FREE of charge without commission. What a piece of work! Meanwhile, he supposedly has $500,000 worth of cards, mostly restored by him, sitting in Doug Allen's house and he says "Doug won't return them". The only thing you can believe out of this total charlatan's mouth is that you don't know WHAT to believe. I DO, since I have his 1000 or so emails verifying everything said here AND FAR FAR MORE. Let's keep going. I LIKE THIS!!!! Let me get out the old BCD floppy disc file box!!!! This is going to be FUN!!!! And the funniest thing is that when this pissant wants ALL my personal information, for what purpose I can't even begin to fathom, and I don't provide it for him..he doesn't like it. As if I should draw a roadmap for every reprobate and deviate that wants to find me.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

Email: received by comickeys (me) from mdaniels1@earthlink.net (Brain Daniels).

Subject: Interesting item on Ebay....
nice score! $500.00 for a reprint! do not tell doug (Allen) anything about repair work on cards please...do not mention me to him at all! tell him you trust him and this is why you want to ask him to cert some cards or have the Mantle looked at if you go ahead and send it to him...he does not know he has submitted restored cards and does not need to know!!!! also, send back Ted the fatima...too much bulls**t..."your (sp.) too emotionally involved" F**k it!

Original email replete with headers available and suitable for framing.

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Posted By: vorthian

... will Marco Ruas (Ruas Vale Tudo) be mentioned!

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

you don't show up when someone flies 3000 miles to see you because your ashamed of yourself

you don't buy anything after asking what to buy 100,000 times

your not a doctor and regardless of the bolna you post you won't convince anyone you are with documented,photoed proof!

your a jail bird who sells stolen comics from long ago and noone can identify you otherwise

you live with prostitutes am whacked and buy and sell crap you know nothing about to vreate income your otherwise drug dealer job does not afford you so your slough of ex-wives won't find out what your doing1 So you should be reported to the IRS if anything.....


doctors do not write 99% of anything you do.......and for re-emphasis,you are not a doctor.......you would have been stripped of your alleged title when you were supposedly in the hospital from a gun shot wound you sustained during a drug buy for one your skank strip club prosties!

your knowing of nothing about cards is only surpassed by your lack of legal knowledge because you make reference to types of law suits a high school class in business law would give you the common sense to know is pure bologna........

your a phoney ~ nobody on the board has seen you or will ever see you unless they go to the trial for probable tax evasion or perjury via child support issues.........Dan should have you investigated for support of facts to validate the claim someone should file on you on behalf of half the melato children in Floral park New York where you do do not have a benz AMG of which most guys who post on a regular basis can buy with their untrimed cards if they want one.....why would a guy 9drug dealer0 who tries to pass himself off as a doctor but is hiding from ex-wives want to be so conspicuious with sich a vehicle unless he does not actually spend time with his children??? duh!!! That took a lot to figure out!!!!!!! your posts are stupid because I have known many of these people long before you and some of them actually can connect a face to a post!!! Your childish posts have zero composure as compared to a bad doctor or even a quack! Your reputation as a liar is everywhere. I could list piles of guys who have gotten crap from you including comics! it is my understanding your slammed on comic chat boards as well.........your not welcome here any longer.Plain and simple......your funny but your a total looser beyond hope! between your personality and your lack of knowing anything about collectibles.............WHO WILL COME FORTH IN YOUR DEFENSE AND ACTUALLY STATE THEY WANT YOU HERE???? ANYONE???/ I doubt it........good bye ta ta....run along ,your a nusiance with nothing to contribute as dan clearly stated or was it Scott or leon or or or.....ur-gone! undesired in the globe of cards!

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

Forwarded from Marla Daniels (Brian Daniels) to Me:
"THE BEST CARD I EVER CORRECTED! IT STARTED OUT ABOUT A 5- !!! GUESS WHAT IT'S WORTH NOW??????

Scan included of 1911 E94 Close Candy Ty Cobb graded 7 by PSA. Serial number: 08170315

Full email available by request.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...and I'm sure that anyone that knows you is aware of your eccentric propensity for exaggeration and outright tale-spinning. I can't leave here yet, there's still alot of emails to post from you divulging which cards you restored and sold elsewhere. I'm rustling them all up now, so you keep bandying about while I keep correlating. There's going to be ALOT of busy busy people going through cards that passed through your hands that are going to have to be checked. You forget, because of your need to brag and boast, you actually forgot just how much you divulged to me. Earning your trust was easy, like ANY child. I told you what you wanted to hear, and you spilled your guts as if someone ran a bayonet across them. I don't think you realize what you told me about your card dealings. I'll remind you. I'm sure there's MANY collectors that are going to want to hear this MAJOR hobby restoration shakeup. As you once said, "between you and Daniel Desmond (whoever he is?) you wouldn't be surprised if at least 75% of all high grade Vintage cards are DONE", lots of them sitting in PSA holders.

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Posted By: Brian C Dniels

should I post that letter! nah! I don't need to do that.Your own posts about things these guys despise would elude to that.No need.

But for the record.........I have tons of SGC-80 T-206's. I collect them! Ask MW-another of your many nemisis'. Also never slabbed ONE card restored in a PSA holder! I do not like PSA or their holders. i have NEVER sent them anything! I did send some resored cards to SGC and even wrote about it! I wanted to see if their founder ,Joe Merkle would be able to use his expertese to detect them. he got 11 out of 60. Not bad work for a guy who works on paintings! Post anything you want,,,it just continues to validate your lack of credentials! I asked you where you worked two years ago when you wanted to adopt me!!!! You would not cough it up then so now and motive has no different reason.It's called proving your worth trusting! Something if you hung around anyone who did not do drugs or pay for senx would have done to you for your oqwn good a long time ago! And there are ZEO restored cards at Doug's and trying to defame his character is a joke! he stands up straight and needs not bend over all night trying to find another loupe to examine the Mantle one more time........by the way,how many cards did you request I recondition for you???? And i paid plenty for you posting some cards ,none of which were resotred or returned as such......the venom that spews from you would have already produced names and dates of others but it's bologna....you used my stuff to get you power seller staus on e-bay.You did it for feedback's! Anbd it cost me plenty.....you F'd up several of my deals by promising to send my stuff back and you did not and WILL NOT*** as you still HAVE T-206's of mine! Thus, I lost the arrangements several times with others' and it was WAY more than the e-bay fee bologna for a hand full of certified....yes most were SGC certified ,you lied about that as well......

dude! your New Yorkee personal and public attack stuff is boring and again consistant with a twelve year old or someone on drugs with no self esteem! ABSOLUTELY NO DOCTOR WOULD EVER WRITE SUCH TRASH AND NO DOCTOR WOULD EVER SEND MEMO'S AND PRINTED RETURN ADDRESS STICKERS OR CHECKS WITHOUT "STATUS" TITLES ON THEM! ESPECIALLY A LITTLE BOY WHO WANTS TO BRAG ABOUT CARS HE DOES NOT EVEN OWN! more dribble.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

From Brian Daniels:

"I will not do the big card thing and there is easy money in lots like this ...the big cards are subject to too much suspicion now. Its not going to work unless Doug (Allen) or Kevin S (no idea) sends them in for you or Lewis Bouilman (no idea) and those guys ain't gonna do it because they will LOOSE THE EASY GRADING THEY GET FROM SO MUCH SUBMITTING...forget the 15K card restoration thing....I did one 5 years ago and Doug (Allen) gave me S**T for a week for it...and MASTRO gave him s**t for a week for it..because he remembered seeing the card prior to restoration."

Hey B, HOW DO I KNOW THIS if you didn't email me??? Hey Doug, How do I know this if Brian didn't email me this info?? Hey Bill, how do I know this if Brain didn't email this info???? I COULDN'T make this up. I have no idea who some of these people are!!!

Full emails available upon request!!!!!

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

right???


all your posts are basically the same......devoid of anything anyone on here can use concerning cards......

now,where do you work again????

and what are the doc numbers of your alleged law suits concerning e-bay,Dan,Von Dole, Mosser There are no suck law suits and never will be!

DON'T BLAME US!!!! YOUR STUCK WITH A PIECE OF GARBAGE JACKSON E-90-1 AND 52 TOPPS ROOKIE MANTLE THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE!

All the other guff means nothing.........you will still be alone with those cards........did anyone return any,even one card of mine for being altered? no! you would have told me all about it......my story will stuck pal! I have never sold a resotred card to anyone,anywhere anytime......before you rant with bodily fluid attacks et.....can you tell me one of one person who has one altered card from me??? ONe name willdo! Just one??? NOBODY.....there is none so you won't be able to continue to perjure yourself with disclosing half truths and insults.......you brought it on........you flamed everyone on here and keep writing stuff about cards that is fully made up in your mind because you desperately want some recognition for knowing something.......anyone on here want to support your efffort???? has not looked to favorable to me...........you got knocked out a while ago! probably after you went to the DA and told him you purchased that junk in cash ( to hide from the ex-wives intended proceeds ) and the DA told you ,you had no proof of cause or action! That is when you started going down the tubes in a bodily fluid of ignorance....

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..EMAILS to me about who you pushed restored cards through, exactly like the one above, we'll see who's asked to leave. What are you going to do when Doug reads the above post from your own mouth, and Bill Mastro reads it and BOTH KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, then ask themselves, "CHRIST, how did KOOS KNOW?????!!!!!". When we're done, we'll see who the liar is. This is going to be the weeks of hobby revelation for ANYONE you ever came into contact with. Oh, and I was ALREADY A GOLD-POWER-SELLER BEFORE you ever asked me to sell cards for you so you could keep up the charade of ONLY BEING A BUYER. The real problem here is that I CAN PROVE WHAT I'M SAYING because evryone will know I'm spouting facts that only YOU and THEY should have known, braggart with no brain. Why do you think I saved EVERY ONE of your emails. I knew you would one day self-destruct and I wanted a record of my NON-INVOLVEMENT. Stupidly, you were willing to run your infamous mouth and I was MORE than willing to listen. Funny how I NEVER LET YOU RESTORE NOT EVEN ONE PIECE FOR ME, even though you offered to MANY times, suggesting I buy this and that and that you can turn it into a 7 or 8 and I pay you a flat rate. I'll be finding those emails too along with those implicating many others in your restoration and grading shenanigans. And you're right, if Doug KNEW what you were giving him to submit because you were using him for his "pull" with PSA (as you put it), he would have smashed you across your face with it. Choke out this guy and that guy, you couldn't even choke out your chicken.

[Archive]

Posted By: BcD

to my inquiry as to where you have seen more than exactly ONE reprint of the famed E-95 Cobb card ??? You ad states you have seen several on e-bay! being as you are Mr. Pizza delivery cut and paste.........and love to challenge people on the facts.......WHERE IS THE OTHER ADS YOU WOULD HAVE SAVED OF THE ALLEGED,OTHER E-95 COBBS YOU HAVE SEEN ON E-BAY????

The only one ever was the one that created the big war between BMW and Scott Elkins about 15 months ago now........there have been ZERO others!

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

...loss for words on them? Can't think fast enough? You're reeling? All you keep doing is throwing MORE red Herrings at me but you're not commenting on or stopping the flow here. You've got a BIG BIG problem. Here and NOW, and it's NOT going away. I haven't even BEGUN to post your numerous, braggidocio emails about your restoration and where the cards went, and who graded them, and who owns them now. I'd seriously be focusing on some kind of damage control RIGHT NOW (you know what Apollo Creed's manager kept saying to Rocky, "There IS no tomorrow") instead of this farce of a defense, even though damage control, at this point is useless.

[Archive]

Posted By: B C Daniels

that should be DOCTOR Daniels to you


prove you have an AMG treated benz____

prove your a doctor (not)


prove you know anything about cards?

prove anyone wants you on the board!!!
Prove I sent you a restored card NOT!

prove you exist!!!!

you will not be very successful at validating any of these....but please try....e-mails doctored by you or not existing at all will not deal with these issues or prove anything other than you have no friends or support in this board!


lastly, are you going to deny telling me you were shot while trying to buy drugs for your girlfriend and had an exstended stay in the hospital????? I have yet....like the inquirey as to where you work.....seen any reality response to this???? Don't think I made it up being as you would include me along with dan in one of your make believe law suits!!!!


Brian, I would never ever post letters........remember?

dude,you prove over and over and over again what aliar and fraud you are! Truly you might be able to seehow someone who wanted to trust you would find you dispicable in everyway.....letters you make up and post won't change this...you already violate any form of trust by not even admitting you sold an altered card to 2Seamer*** and no! that BowmAN Mantle did not come from me you probably purchased that from Hober as well along with the bogus Nodgrass you peddled onto Doug....

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

From BCD:

"did you get the horizontal Herzog? post that along with the others. I need MONEY..spent to much on coins! I did however win money last night three ways on the baseball game,,how many runs, total pitches and the winning side for $400. I need $2K more to pay for braces for my 11 year old...or I get s**t form his mother and she calls and bugs Marz."

Editorial note: Sound like someone doing ME a favor by letting ME benefit from selling his stuff????

[Archive]

Posted By: B C Daniels

drug deals???? hello! I told you my brother died of an overdose and you think this is ther kind of thing Zi weanted to hear.........or stip club central??/

You told me what i wanted to hear...like hi! I'm Richard,I'm a doctor!..you think this BS is what i wanted to hear........posting simulated letters won't help you gain fame on here.The bulk of the people can't stand you and want you gone.......ask anyone! start a new thread with a vote pole!
what I wanted to hear was the truth!!!! Something a three time divorced loser has no clue about! ( or so you stated...is this something i wanted to hear??? ) that kind of life is sad not a happy thought for ones day!

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Posted By: B C D

real collectors of cards do not need a magnifying glass to detect alterations.........it's just the onlt .05% part of card collecting you know a tiny bit of........sorry I helped you,tried to trust you and most of all had any concern for you....

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

When we're done, week's from now with this restoration Hobby shakeup, EVERYONE you involved and sold to/traded with, submitted for you will have read my "doctored" emails and said, "O my GOD!! Koos is telling the truth, he's reciting word for word and describing the event exactly as transpired!".

ALL EMAILS AVAILABLE FOR PERUSAL COMPLETE WITH UNALTERABLE HEADERS. If I knew how to post them correctly here (I tried and can't get them to transfer) I would instead of the arduous task of relaying them. That's OK...I don't mind. I'm taking off the next few days, THIS is important and will drastically change the hobby when all this little fussbudget has recited to me has been revealed...mark my words.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

...you don't realize the severity of the problem you have?? You're FINISHED in this hobby and you can't even think of flubbing a decent excuse to explain any of the few emails I've divulged out of a THOUSAND.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

...are you crazy altogether. I TOLD you this? You have an email with my words saying this? I have emails with everything you said and I am repeating here verbatem containing the HEADERS, those funny encryptiques at the bottom with the original text interjected between them that CAN'T BE ALTERED, even if you tried!!!! When all the pertanent emails to your massive, widespread hobby fraud are posted, anyone wishing a copy of a particular email can request it if they would like additional proof to pursue recompensation. I must say from your recent posts...you're TERRIBLE under pressure! The things you choose to focus on while your tenure in this hobby slowly draws to a well-deserved conclusion, astound me. I'm as in awe of your lack of common sense as the cavernous size of your mouth the past 2 years. I'm relaxing tomorrow and then starting on Monday, I'm taking the week off to concentrate on posting all pertanent posts. The members were right. NOW, all my powers will be concentrated on GOOD in ridding, eradicating, and revealing fully a specific pestilence in this hobby that they ALL suspected existed anyway... at least you'll have 24 hours to fumble SOME kind of decent offensive/defensive strategy other than I'm "making it up" and I "do drugs"!!! I'm confident that most here recognize the truth and have ample brainpower to discern who here dwells on the Lunatic fringe.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

..posts? Oh, you're probably already answering all the emails that are starting to pour in. Better learn to type with your toes too or hire a scribe!

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

but first:

prove your a doctor??


acknowldege your hospital stay ala being shot for trying to do a drug deal( hows about you post the two e-mails concerning this)

show us the AMG treated Benz

prove I sold one altered card to anyone!

what a joke,,,,,,,if you thought all my cards were altered in any way WHY WOULD YOU CLAIM TO POST AND SELL THEM????

post the letter I just sent you so these guys can see your integrity.......

your asteroid voice will be heard on deaf ears...write to everyone you want nobody acknowledges your existence or card prowess so whatever you do it will have zero effect on my business dealings.....maybe you should go on an art chaT board and duscuss it with Art collectors as well......they'll go 'who is this guy who dound one or two words typical of collecting in a catalog somewhere' dude1 call doug or Mastro..just your voice will make them hang up! My business buds are solidly supportive of me and you'll be seen in yet more bologna entanglement.......

so about the gun shot from drug deal thing???? any affirmation for Vorthian on that being as he is the only guy probably reading this guff!

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

..what is forthcoming is more important to this hobby than any other thread in the history of this Board.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dr.Koos

..when they realize that you played them like an old banjo!!

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Posted By: B C Daniels

gone bad thing! the only thing was a " Did I say that? " and the obvious answer is yes! Are you denying it.........

I do not need to post e-mails because it's just scrapeing the barrel for you.......it will not change our inability to peddle tthe crap mantle and bogus jackson or bring back any shred od integrity for you!

your not a doctor,you have no AMG benz,you hide money by paying cash for things as to avoid alamony.( yes,I have piles of e-mails on this stuff 0

but would never post them because it's just desperation

to save face.......


your not a doctor and all the e-mails won't change that it will only show how avidant you are about anything

that is why you pose the answer to simple questions with questions it's known in law as a straw man" another thing you learn in a basic Business law class.........

tryingto smear me will not prove your a doctor,have a law suit with mosser or Von Dole or Dan or anyone else........it will show these guys that yet another real collector will not support your BS any longer....and one that knows I might add......

but I could care less what you post. I am not the guy who got myself in a mess over bs logic on why I would try to sell some cards I stated were worthless! YOU DID! and by morning Eliott will just delter this whole thing anyway or anything else not related to cards you post......

I kinda hope he leaves it on because NO ONE will come forth to support anything you write about us except maybe that we interfaced ( but not face to face because you don't sohw up when push comes ot shove )


no noe will back up your claims of my improprieties concening altered cards. and you claim to post to sell a bunch for me?????

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Posted By: It's only 12.30 am here!

drugs will keep ypu up but not I ......I am going to sleep.........you can stay up and dream up a bunch of e-mails and excuses for not validating your a doctor or have law suits peniding concerning your bogus cards and David's bid withdrawals on the mantle......your power seller "on the phone" right now was unsuccessful in suspending him which you staed would occur but then again......it's more hot air from a drug dealer trying to launder money through cards and comics and also attempt to avoid ala"money" and greater child support........enjoy...yawn!

You biggest problem is you can't even see what love is and have not a clue of it.....( words from Marla ). You create pain by not being trustworthy and then when someone who actually cares about you ,confronts you with it ,you degrade yourself silly! with .....this stuff!

[Archive]

Posted By: DaveP

all i wanted to know is why koos refuses to send those two cards in pro holders to a reputable grader, rather than argue with everyone about them. if they are really ok and not trimmed, why not send them to sgc or psa and have them graded and put into reputable holders?