Why is SGC getting all the prewar bus now...

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Posted By: Rand

ok, first off, this is a straight up question, no hidden agenda. I was reading the latest T215 Pirates post, Doug Allen has not given the provenance of the group but said they were at SGC for grading...So how did SGC take a large share away from PSA in this sector? You have to give SGC credit because they are getting a lot of business out of Mastro (important cards)and seem to be gaining in other auction houses as well. How did this happen?

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

Ok I know this is going to start the whole PSA SGC thing but I have been getting my cards graded by SGC for a longtime I know they have the best when it comes to pre-war cards. The holders look better, grades are a lot more consistent, and a whole lot less altered cards in there holders. Plus there customer services is second to none. My saying use to be buy them in SGC sell them in PSA. Now it has really changed buy and sell SGC. IMO

Trevor

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Posted By: Rand

I tried to avoid personal opinion, (i like sgc as well) i want to know how they GOT the business from PSA. SGC has also been grading post war cards..so how did they do it? Mastro must have seen something to have the confidence that SGC cards would bring the high bids in the auction....

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

It was not personal opinion the reasons are what I stated above:

"The holders look better, grades are a lot more consistent, and a whole lot less altered cards in there holders. Plus there customer services is second to none."

I know or three very very big vintage collections that have been raw for years and now are all in SGC holders.

Trevor

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Posted By: Glen Turner

It is simple to me. They are both comparable grading companies. I won't buy any PSA graded card that is floating around loose in a PSA holder prewar or anyother. SGC cuts a holder for the card and they look great in their holders.
Simple!

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Posted By: Marty

My opinion is that there is not a lot of high grade prewar outside of the T205 and T206. For a lot of the issues, there is just flat out not a lot of cards in any grade. With out the volume of cards, the set regestry is not much of a driving force. With out the set regestry, PSA is competing on an even playing field with SGC. SCG started focusing on the prewar and have had some strong supporters. They demanded SGC for prewar and are being heard. There are many, such as Trevor, that do not have faith in PSA for the less common issues.

I sell my share of graded cards and have alway felt that I will offer cards in the holders that my customers are asking for. I now have more SGC cards in my inventory that I have had in the past. I have customers asking for SGC. I normally will not give them Topps issues, but they are getting a lot of my prewar.

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Posted By: Rand

I agree 110% with everything you said...thing is, PSA has a huge lock with the Registry. IF they did not have it....things would be different. So, what happened to allow the door to open for SGC to get such amazing material? Did PSA drop the ball? or did something happen that pissed off Mastro? GAI cards are obvious, they shot themselves in the foot, and PSA not accepting crossovers didn't help. THanks for the email.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Exactly what Trevor said. My entire collection is in SGC holders and if I were able to convince a few of my larger buyers to go SGC, SGC would end up doing all of my grading.

Greg

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As a non partisan, I've noticed Mastro recently having more SGC graded modern cards-- ala 1950s-60s. They've always had SGC Pre-War cards.

I think the majority of PSA collectors consider SGC reputable. In fact, I think most PSA collectors prefer there to be able competition to PSA. They advocate PSA, but don't believe to be in their interest for PSA to be a monopoly.

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Posted By: Rand

"They advocate PSA, but don't believe to be in their interest for PSA to be a monopoly."

That was well said!! i found it interested that SGC was grading more 50's & 60's material as well. thanks for the input

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Besides the better customer service, perhaps also the perception that they have more experienced graders who are more consistent in their grading as well as more adept at detecting alterations.

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Posted By: leon

Good points. The "perception" that SGC is better, and more consistent, is in fact a reality. I would imagine a perception would only last a short while with this board. Reality is that they are better in those areas. That is the reason they are gaining ground. Not to knock PSA either, they do get it right most of the times. Personally, I feel more comfortable when buying an SGC graded card than a PSA one though....but to each their own....best regards

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

just sheer FLOW of cards that the services get. PSA gets EVERYTHING. TONS of new crap, 1950's, 1970's, etc, etc. SGC probably gets some of that too but not the same amount that PSA gets. SGC gets so much more of the older stuff that they grow their knowledge about those issues and just do a better job on it I think. I'm sure PSA has 'dedicated' vintage graders but they have so much other stuff that they deal with. Beckett faces the same issues because they get all the BGS9.5 people trying to get those 9.5's on new stuff. Not sure if BVG is separate but you rarely see an old card graded by Beckett or BVG. Some people also like the aesthetics of the black insert and the cut to fit insert of SGC instead of the glassine that PSA puts tons of cards in. Never understood why PSA didn't do a clear insert that can be cut to fit like SGC's black insert.

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Posted By: Jim Newman

I often wondered why Mastro Auctions gives their best stuff to SGC..after talking to a few major dealers, they said it is because Dave Forman is one of their biggest consigners. Is that true?

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I think it is simple, customer demand. More and more collectors at large (in the pre-60's card market) are wanting SGC graded cards for there collections. Therefor companies like Mastro are filling that need by doing "what the customer wants" I think that is the answer here. I am sure everyone can say they are getting this and that but I believe at the end of the day it really has to do with demand from the bidders and that can be given in the form of heavier bids on certain companies graded cards, complaints when they tried to cross other companies cards over and they get rejected, and what I believe to be biggest reason is that SGC stands by there cards with the auction houses and the collectors. I know it is obvious, I am bios here but for good reason, I know I will not get burned with a SGC card. So in summation I think the collectors have spoke and the auction houses are listening, plan and simple. Now I just wish they would hear us about the 20% vig but hay I guess that is just business.

My 4¢
Trevor

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Posted By: Anonymous

I think part of it is because Derek Grady (former SGC head grader) is on Mastro's staff and pregrades most of their sets. I think it's smart on their part to grade the prewar cards with SGC but I'm not so sure for the post war sets.

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Posted By: James Feagin

From a collecting standpoint, I have to say I have been disappointed with SGC lately. They have this new customer service manager, who unlike Scott, rarely returns by e-mail questions and always has an excuse. Also, if "consistent" means way harder grades, then SGC is great. I want accurate grading, but definitely don't want to be squeezed. My lastest exeperiences have left me going more "old school" and buying raw with no intentions of slabbing.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

I've been hesitant to post my experiences with SGC for fear it would turn this into another PSA vs. SGC thread, which isn't the intent. Since James' post also deals with SGC's customer service, I don't feel so bad sharing my thoughts (thanks, James).

I read so many times on this board about how good SGC is with its customers. Maybe mine is an isolated case, or maybe PSA is just so bad that anything else looks good by comparison. But in the past 10 days I've left two phone messages with SGC, each time asking what I think are two simple questions (will they grade Tip Top bread labels and what's the best procedure for bringing cards to the national convention for grading). Neither call has been returned.

In the past, when I've sent e-mails -- which went unanswered for 4-5 days -- I was told it's better to call. And like James, it seems there's always an excuse for the lack of a somewhat timely response.

I have both SGC- and PSA-slabbed cards in my collection, and it's not like I prefer SGC so much that I would break out cards from a PSA holder just to have them graded by SGC. But SGC would be my choice when I'm submitting raw cards. I'd like to think I entered into the entire grading scenario with an unbiased viewpoint, but SGC is slowing pushing me to the other side of the street simply by their continuous lack of customer service.

Just my two cents.

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Posted By: JK

"But in the past 10 days I've left two phone messages with SGC, each time asking what I think are two simple questions (will they grade Tip Top bread labels and what's the best procedure for bringing cards to the national convention for grading). Neither call has been returned."


SGC has just moved to a new location. I have always rec'd prompt assistance from SGC when Ive called. However, this week, they have not answered phones or returned messages. My guess is that it has to do with the move of the business. Big moves tend to be all consuming time-wise.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

They've always differentiated themselves from PSA with their great service, esp. re answering questions, so not to respond to something is rather out of character and must be tied to the move. As far as bringing cards to the National, the best way is the only way: walk up to their booth.

I'm sure Derek's position with Mastro has something to do with their use of SGC but it also has to do with the niche SGC has carved out for itself with its better holders. Many vintage cards do not fit in PSA holders and many vintage collectors simply do not like seeing their cards in sleeves floating free around the inside of an imprecise holder. That alone is enough to drive me to SGC.

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Posted By: Jimmy Piccuito

I think both companies are good for the hobby, and SGC always focused on pre-war cards from the beginning and have done a good job separating interest from PSA. I buy, sell and send my cards to both. There is no question with pre-war cards that I need to make a decision, most of the time it maybe PSA if I was going to resell a card - SGC is a great holder and sometimes if I want to keep a card or have customers that prefer SGC - I may go through them. I even like having ungraded cards to have a bit of everything. Either way they both get a lot of attention in this hobby.

Jimmy

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Posted By: leon

I spoke with them today about the call back thing. Ya'll are correct that it's associated with the move and the phone system. I think everyone can relate to phone issues during a move. They are aware of the issue and are working quickly to resolve it. They do read this board too so whatever is said does funnel up the chain.....best regards

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Posted By: James Feagin

Leon,

My issues may be isolated. But there has been more than one instance of a complete lack of communication with the customer. These instances are months and months in the making. It's hard for me to justify SGC as a nice alternative just because they have a snazzy holder and grade toughly, ooops, I mean "consistent".

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Posted By: leon

A few things I have learned in life.....

1. You will never make everyone happy.
2. see rule 1


best regards

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Posted By: scott fandango

SGC may be getting more cards, but their selling prices are still not even close to PSA in same grade....

i will buy SGC vintage cards, crack, resumbit to PSA, sell, and make a profit almost ever time....

for whatever reason, SGS slabs dont have the same value as a PSA....

last month a 1914 Mathewson graded SGC 1.5 went for $10,000 less then the last PSA comparable version..that is a BIG DIFFERENCE...

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Posted By: MikeU

"last month a 1914 Mathewson graded SGC 1.5 went for $10,000 less then the last PSA comparable version..that is a BIG DIFFERENCE..."

$10K less? The card itself sells for less than $10K.

From Vintage Card Prices e.g. 1914 CJ Mathewson:

SGC 20/1.5 Sales history:

4/29/07 REA $8,225.00

3/12/07 eBay View Auction $8,101.00

4/3/06 Mastro $13,901.40

11/17/05 Sloate $14,537.00

PSA 1 Sales history:

8/30/06 eBay View Auction $4,801.99

From this, PSA's lack of 1/2 grades cost the seller 200% to 450% in profit.

You will have to come up with a different example.

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Posted By: Matt E.

I recently had 180 tobacco cards graded.


However before grading the lot I contacted both PSA and SGC for bulk pricing quotes. SGC was straight forward with the bulk discount pricing and I knew right where I stood at “X” dollars per card. There was no price differentiation for stars or short prints, rare etc…

When I spoke with the PSA head honcho/s…they said commons had one price and the stars another price, but never did commit to a hard price per card. It was a pretty easy decision for me knowing the total before hand being a small collector. Maybe this is done on a larger scale with auction houses consignors etc...?

Oh and SGC holders do look better.

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Posted By: Jim Newman

My problem with SGC is what everyone seems to be avoiding....Does the owner of the company buy and sell cards and are those cards in SGC holders? Multiple national dealers have told me that Dave Forman (SGC's owner) is Mastro's biggest consignor over the years...if this is true, there is obvious conflict. I was told that he buys cards that he knows SGC collectors need, puts them in SGC holders, and then has his brother (Steve Forman) or friends sell them for him..............bottom line ...is that true? If it is true, then all I can say is wow. I think I will ask him myself at the national.

I am not trying to stir the pot here, but I'm not going to spend money on SGC graded cards if that is true..I have bought a few SGC cards, broke them out, and PSA either rejected them or graded them lower then SGC.....I know that PSA is a publicly traded company and seem to be held by a system of checks and balances...I cant imagine spending big money on SGC graded cards with potential conflict of interest in the integrity of the card.....can someone get Dave Forman on here or maybe Doug Allen to address this?

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Posted By: rand

stir the pot? i think your login name says it for you. who cares what Forman does with his cards...i only care about the cards i buy or have graded. If you think PSA is perfect, enjoy, i am sure their relationship with Memory Lane's new cert #ers and the trimmed Wagner have no effect on collectors opinions about them. So stay away from SGC and explain why PSA is losing highend business to them as the original POST asks. Oh, and go ahead and ask Forman about his cards, along with Cohen (Memory Lane), Mastro about the Wagner, Doug Allen about disclosing doctored cards, and every dealer that handled T206's in the 1970's & 80's.

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Posted By: Jim Newman

Rand...you said a mouthful....a forum like this is for discussion....Im not sure what your point is, but it does not address my question...the issues you mentioned are your dilemnas, not mine....mine regards SGC and Dave Forman....if you cant answer it, then move on.

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think it's fair game to take every grading company to task since so much depends upon the grade they assign a card. But will anybody actually come on a public forum and admit to what they may be doing out of people's sight? Especially a forum like this, which is somewhat of a lion's den. But these are all valid questions that deserve truthful answers.

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Posted By: scott fandango

first MikeU, i made a mistake, i was referring to a higher graded CJ Mathewson (psa 3), not the 1.5 that sold....

Second, if what PsaJim says is true, then it explains why Mastro is selling more SGC cards, the OP's main point...

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Glyn Parson--

"The only reason SGC has not taken over is that many PSA customers have their heads in the sand including some that used to post here regularly but I haven't seen on the boards in a while. Also I personally feel many dealers know they can can get more doctored stuff through PSA than through SGC".

Sorry Glyn--still trying to get my head out of the sand--actually you are a very perceptive guy, particularly with your last comment which is very worrisome.

Not that Doug Allen will say this but I understand he has an interesting large consigner in his upcoming auction--I won't say who it is as it is heresay--but expect a lot of high grade goudey and play ball psa-graded cards in his forthcoming auction.

Jim

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Posted By: MikeU

"MikeU, i made a mistake, i was referring to a higher graded CJ Mathewson (psa 3), not the 1.5 that sold...."

According to VCP, there are no recorded PSA 3 sales for the 1914 CJ Mathewson? Try again.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Interesting. I've also heard that a PSA/DNA grader authenticates his own stuff and consigns it to Mastro. I know SGC is FARRRRRRRRR less shady than PSA, and I also know that as they've gotten bigger, their customer service has taken a little bit of a hit.

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Posted By: scott fandango

Mike, the 1914 CJ PSA 3 mathewson sold in 2005 for $25,742 and a PSA4 sold for $40,600 in 2006, maybe VCP doesnt go that far back....search VCP for SGC sales in the last year and you will see what i mean, the last Mathewson SGC didnt come close to $25,000...


Jim- i was a little confused with your post....can you give up a little more info?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- I think there are other factors that determine a sale price other than only whether or not a card is graded by SGC or PSA. I've seen an equal number of SGC cards outperform PSA cards of the same grade, and it has a lot to do with timing, and who is bidding at a given moment, among other factors.

It's not a linear process; not every PSA card outperforms every SGC card of the same grade. That's an oversimplification, and it's inaccurate.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Heck, PSA use to have it's own auctions. Talk about conflict of interest. I think a little research is needed before making accussations.

It always amazes me how people defend PSA with all the BS they have pulled over the years. I feel that PSA still holds a bit of hold on the dollar value for run of the mill vintage cards but the gap is closing and has been for years.

I personally would never submit to SGC, but do buy them to resell or if it is a tougher card I really want. If I had the money I would resubmit all of them to SGC.

Lee

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Posted By: jay behrens

Exceptions are easy to point out. If you are going to make the claim that PSA sells better than SGC, then you better back it up with a whole lot of data, not just one example that you can't even seem to get right.

Here is a challenge for you to test your thesis; find 10 PSA cards from pre-ww2 sets that are NOT mainstream (i.e. t206, 33 Goudey, 41 PB, CJs, etc) that have sold for significantly larger sums than their their SGC.

When you remove the registry element of the equation, PSA prices will be higher than SGC.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: MikeU

Not that Doug Allen will say this but I understand he has an interesting large consigner in his upcoming auction--I won't say who it is as it is heresay--but expect a lot of high grade goudey and play ball psa-graded cards in his forthcoming auction.

MASTRO AUCTIONS IS PROUD TO PRESENT THE MARHALL FOGEL COLLECTION

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Posted By: MikeU

"Mike, the 1914 CJ PSA 3 mathewson sold in 2005 for $25,742 and a PSA4 sold for $40,600 in 2006, maybe VCP doesnt go that far back....search VCP for SGC sales in the last year and you will see what i mean, the last Mathewson SGC didnt come close to $25,000..."

No, VCP does not have the 2005 sale you noted for the PSA 3 1914 CJ Mathewson. It does have the PSA 4 you mentioned. VCP does go back to 2005 for many auctions, but not eBay. In what format did the PSA 3 sell in?

Regardless, the last SGC 40/3 that sold and only one is listed in VCP:

2/26/07 eBay View Auction $22,888.90

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Posted By: MikeU

"search VCP for SGC sales in the last year and you will see what i mean"

Complete set of VCP statistics for 1914 CJ #88 Mathewson:

PSA 1
8/30/06 eBay View Auction $4,801.99

SGC 1.5
4/29/07 REA $8,225.00
3/12/07 eBay View Auction $8,101.00
4/3/06 Mastro $13,901.40
11/17/05 Sloate $14,537.00

SGC 2
6/21/07 Mastro View Auction $17,847.60
4/27/07 Mastro View Auction $10,779.60

SGC 3
2/26/07 eBay View Auction $22,888.90

PSA 4
4/30/06 Rea $40,600.00
4/11/06 eBay $25,000.00

Are you sure you $25K PSA 3 was not actually a PSA 4?

I am not "seeing what you mean."

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Posted By: calleocho

I like graded cards, I think they have a solid place in our hobby.

But a while ago i decided to put together a raw set together (1965 topps) just because it was cheap and I could care less about resale value...

That was fun ...touching the cards ...putting them in pages .

Probably the most fun i have had in the hobby for a while.

Again my posts have always been very pro grading in general and i would not buy an expensive card raw...( i even called Ted a dinasour ) but there is something about raw that still has a lot of appeal for its simplicity and innocence.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Mike,

I am not talking about Marshall who I don't believe is selling. If I mentioned what I heard and it wasn't true then it would not be fair but if the selective discloser of information ever comes on again and asks me..you never know.

Jim

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

I wanted to make sure you saw my opinion, glad you did. I know you actually do love cards, despite what some on here think. As a PSA HOF'er I hope you can get some change enacted over there and have them catch more of these cards that I personally feel are heavily doctored. If you wonder why they dont mess with more low pops to do away with such an animal it is because many of the problems they have that make them lo pops are the kinds of things that are tough to fix or are unfixable (ie way oc or heavy print marks on the face of a card).

Oh yeah and that final sentiment from my original post here is right from Gary Moser's mouth. So when one of Pros biggest submitters admits to me that he finds PSA much easier to get altered cards through then SGC I find it terribly unsettling.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

People think I don't love the cards? Noone who knows me would say that.

Will try my best.

Jim

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Posted By: sagard

In my opinion it is in dealers/auction houses best interest to get SGC into the 50s and 60s. If they can get enough SGC collectors hooked it would be big money to re-invent the "low pop" craze again this time in SGC holders.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Also I personally feel many dealers know they can get more doctored stuff through PSA then through SGC."



I would say that is a fact. I also know PSA has no plan to make improvements in this area. They beleive they have the best already in place.

Although I don't know Reza (yet), even if he was the best card alteration expert in the world, he is only one guy and could only do so much.


Kevin

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

What needs to happen is that all the graders at PSA, GAI and SGC need to pass a course on advanced card alteration taught by Kevin--I am being serious here. While Kevin may not know more than the very best graders he knows more than most and some things that very few know.

At the risk of starting world war III (again), simply put the sophisticated card restoration people are ahead of the graders--or at least they are ahead of most of them.

I think it woul;d be interesting to have one of the large auction houses have Kevin look at their graded cards going to auction and Kevin could give his opinion on what percent are likely altered.

What do you think Kevin?

Jim