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#1
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: MW
My apologies to Leon and the other forum members and lurkers for starting a new thread about this topic, but the previous thread appears to have been substantially sidetracked. |
#2
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Dan Markel
How sad that such a piece of rubbish gets published. Thank you MW for saving me $22 or whatever the book costs. |
#3
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: davidcycleback
I remember when Ned Flanders went to a Chris Rock concert thinking it was a Christian Rock concert. After returning home he said he never heard a reverend use the F word so many times. |
#4
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
I remember that episode too, David. |
#5
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Dan Kravitz
It only took 2 people to reply before this thread got side-tracked. |
#6
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
Dan- perhaps you are generalizing a bit. |
#7
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Dan Kravitz
Barry - maybe I am, but most people don't even ask where a card came from. When you buy it off of Ebay or in an auction, it's all about the card. Maybe at a show when 2 guys are talking, more info is available, but it really doesn't matter to most. |
#8
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
That Evers looks vaguely familiar |
#9
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
I just got done quickly reading the book. |
#10
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Dan Kravitz
Harry- I will buy the book from you. email me dan@chiprop.com |
#11
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)
Dan, another board member already emailed me. I dug it out of the bin and am going to send it to him for free. Hopefully he will pass it along after he is done. |
#12
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: leon
I should be finished this weekend with mine and will send it to you for free .....after I check with the person who gave it to me. I am not responsible for the waste of time you invest in reading it though. The real issue, for me with the book, is I don't know what is true and what isn't (according to O'keefe) since he has so many mistakes that are blatant. As previously mentioned you will learn O'keefe thinks collecting cards is more bad than good and he has it out for Bill Mastro. I have said publicly my thoughts on the card already...all of which only come from speaking with folks in the hobby and seeing "The Card" in person...Some folks think I am protecting Mastro as they are an advertiser, and it's certainly their right to think that. Since I am not sure what happened to the card, I am not going to be one of those spreading rumors and embellishing stories for grandiosity..regards |
#13
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Dave Hornish
I'm reading it now and it is interesting, especially since I knew Bob Sevchuk (whom I believe to be deceased). My major problem with it is the authors tie lack of interest in shiny, new stuff to the vintage card market as well when they are two entirely different animals. Vintage cards certainly seem to be in a robust pricing stage right now, wouldn't you say? |
#14
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: peter chao
Guys, |
#15
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Peter, which part of the world thinks we have too much money and too much free time? I'd love to know. |
#16
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Frank Evanov
"I'm sure that the people that bought the T206 Wagner knew it's sordid history and also knew that The Card was going to be published soon." |
#17
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
It's is a contraction -- it is short for it is. The possessive is spelled "its" with no apostrophe. |
#18
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
"Receive" is wrong too but why belabor the point. |
#19
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
By the way, I am shocked at the abysmal response the book has gotten on this board. While I recognize that there are factual errors that could have easily been corrected, didn't anybody find anything worthwhile in this little tome? Remember the average reader is probably not an experienced vintage card collector. Is it possible someone outside the mainstream hobby might find it interesting? It's hard to believe O'Keefe worked several years on the project and did such a poor job. |
#20
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Zinn
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#21
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
I was just referring to those few who have read it. I suppose the more people who do, the more of an accurate response we will get. |
#22
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
I think it's pretty telling that most folks are not going to bother to read it. Obviously if it had anything new to offer we would have heard that already. |
#23
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Boccabella
Yes, I think it's safe to say the book is not aimed at those who've heard the stories about the long-term history of the card. If it were, the print run could probably have been about 250. Most people outside of the hobby or casual collectors know nothing about it's possible origin, etc. Many don't even know what makes any Wagner so desirable. |
#24
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: jay wolt
But if the book isn't made to cater to the collectors |
#25
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Bruce MacPherson
I believe that the target audience of the book is certainly card/memoribilia collectors, but not limited to vintage card collectors. Most of us on this board probably have our own opinions about whether the card is altered or not, however there are likely many non pre-war collectors who have never heard or read any of the discussion and controversies about the card and would find this to be a good read. Anyway I am about a third of the way through the book and I don't share the negativity expressed on the board, at least thus far. But then again, I have a lot left to read including the Cobb/Edwards conterfeit which may change my view. Also, I would be happy to pass my copy along as soon as I am done to anyone that is interested. |
#26
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Boccabella
A card like this transcends the hobby. It's a piece of Americana--something even those with little or no knowledge of cards or the hobby have at least a passing familiarity. If it were purely a book aimed at collectors, there would be no chapters on Wagner himself, his house, the various personalities involved in ownership, etc. The card enthusiasts are a target market, but that's a small number compared to those who will actually read it. |
#27
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: MW
<< My major problem with it is the authors tie lack of interest in shiny, new stuff to the vintage card market as well when they are two entirely different animals. Vintage cards certainly seem to be in a robust pricing stage right now, wouldn't you say? >> |
#28
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Dylan
The writer of the book actually said the market peaked in '91 and has been in a freefall ever since?!? I was under the impression he talked to people like Barry, Scott, and others. Even people who dont collect baseball cards know that they've become much easier to move since the internet and ebay came along. Its probably safe to say that all the popular collectables like coins, sports, comics, etc, have experienced a huge boom since ebay and the internet were established. What an assinine(spell?) comment to make! |
#29
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: davidcycleback
I haven't read the book and don't pretend to know what the author wrote, but agree that someone who can't tell whether or not the Cincinnati Wagner is a reprint shouldn't be writing a book about the T206 Wagner fakes. For the same reason that someone who doesn't know what state Chicago is in shouldn't be writing a traveler's guide to Illinois. |
#30
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
The speculation that there is "before and after" photographic evidence concerning the Wagner has always been one of the most intriguing aspects of the story, and of course it has existed long before the publication of this book. Was Alan Ray prescient enough to take pictures of the card before he sold it, for example? But aside from further speculation about who might possess such evidence, nothing seems to have come of this. |
#31
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: leon
I don't really read many books, besides auction catalogues and Road and Track and Motor Trend, but finished the UNEDITED copy this morning. I might have been a little harsh on it before but the real thing is it shed no new light on The Card. It also gave way too much attention to the 2 jokers with the fake Wagner and really never discounted them....even after we all know that was a huge farce. This board was mentioned many times as well as several posters. It pretty much left the opinion of the author that our hobby is completely fraudulent and filled with scandals and deceit. While I agree there is some of that I would strongly disagree and say that overall the hobby is a good place and a lot of fun...at least it has been for me for the last 10 yrs...and I hope many more to come....regards |
#32
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: RIch Klein
It has to do with 2 factors: |
#33
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Hi Mike, |
#34
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: peter chao
Greg, |
#35
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth
Peter, |
#36
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Frank Wakefield
Well my copy of the book arrived today. I'm midway through A Perfect Red, and will finish that before starting The Card. |
#37
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: leon
I have been told there are 3-4 "before" pictures of The Card. All the same ones but in different hands. I believe BMW has one, another very respected board member who has been sworn to secrecy has one, and a few more folks. I am also told that the before pictures aren't that good and shed no conclusive light on the situation. The picture is poor quality. Saying The Card is a fake is ridiculous and whomever says that instantly loses credibility. Saying the card was cut from a sheet and then cut after that is probably as close to the truth as there can be right now, all in my opinion. I have no factual evidence besides seeing The Card several times under glass and encased in the PSA slab. The top left corner looks to "bat ear" up to me, otherwise it looks like a solid 8 ...Since every single person, that is knowledgable about The Card, says it was cut from a sheet it's surprising (not) that PSA would slab it........regards |
#38
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
You say every single person who is knowledgeable about the card says it is cut from a sheet. Who is more knowledgeable than Mr. Mastro, and he has not said that as far as I know? |
#39
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: JimB
I am about halfway through the book. Ray, the guy who sold the card to Mastro, seems to have quite a resentment against him. Perhaps this is because he was bullyed into selling the card plus a bunch of others high-grade T206s including a Plank for 25k and then heard Bill turned around and sold the card for 110k to Copeland. Maybe he started a rumor about the card being trimmed out of resentment. I have no knowledge on this issue either way - just speculating. |
#40
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: leon
I should have said every single person I have been in contact with, and spoken with, about The Card. I haven't ever spoken with Bill M. about it. Not sure I would want to either ..... |
#41
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: peter chao
Leon, |
#42
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: barrysloate
You should never get bullied by anyone to sell anything unless you choose to do so. If that is Mr. Sevchuk's response to all this (I know someone said he may now be deceased) then that's pretty lame. |
#43
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: MW
A couple of points of clarification: |
#44
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: JimB
Mike, |
#45
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: MW
Jim, |
#46
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
This is not meant to cross-examine you but just out of interest: if the photo proves nothing, why is it that noone in possession of a copy will share it with the collecting public? |
#47
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: peter chao
My guess is that there's presently too much of a furor over The Card. People don't want to show their photo because they don't want the spotlight shining on them. |
#48
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
Peter C., there is more to it than that, it has been widely rumored for many years that certain people were in possession of a "before" photo but would hot share it, for whatever reason. So this is nothing new. |
#49
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: MW
Peter, |
#50
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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"
Posted By: Peter Spaeth
Michael, am I to understand then that you believe the card is not trimmed but you are fearful that less informed and experienced people might conclude from the photo that it is? |
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