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  #1  
Old 05-05-2021, 03:07 PM
55koufax 55koufax is offline
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Default Q. For Kevin Lenane (Genamint and PSA)

Hi Mr. Lenane,

I have an important question for you. Does your new technology provide for detection of pressed corners? If yes, how does that work, and how will the detection be mirrored in grading? Any detraction from the grade it would get pre Genamint? If so, will this be expressed as such in any way on the label (i.e. "altered", "pressed corners", etc.?

Do you personally feel pressing a corner flat is an "alteration" and egregious?

Hoping to get a direct response and learn more about this technology, and continue with a rapport. I may have information to share that may prove to be prudent on this front.

Thank You.
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  #2  
Old 05-05-2021, 03:24 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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New technology will hopefully be able to figure it out by being able to determine the thickness of the card throughout as consistent to said manufacture and year.. As you say a “pressed corner”usually results in thinning of the paper stock towards the corner to me that is alteration.
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  #3  
Old 05-05-2021, 04:02 PM
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Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 View Post
New technology will hopefully be able to figure it out by being able to determine the thickness of the card throughout as consistent to said manufacture and year.. As you say a “pressed corner”usually results in thinning of the paper stock towards the corner to me that is alteration.
A lot of corners that have been pressed out, on vintage anyhow, are pretty obvious if you look at the edges, for exactly the reason you described, the thickness just disappears. I remember returning a PSA 8 US Caramel Ruth back in the day that had just this appearance. The seller (who turned out to be a major doctor) told me it was from being stored in a screwdown. It's not always easy to get a good look at edges, of course, in a holder.
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Old 05-05-2021, 04:07 PM
Aquarian Sports Cards Aquarian Sports Cards is offline
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I just had an estate collection consignment with a lot of "pressed corners" I freed them after 20+ years in screw downs, so it DOES happen honestly. Some real heart-breakers in the group.
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  #5  
Old 05-05-2021, 06:44 PM
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How are "pressed corners" different than any other corner wear, and why would they be graded more harshly?

Do the professional opinion givers really believe that rounded/worn corners happened without some form of contact during the card's lifespan? Who the hell cares how the corner wear took place? Whether it happened from years of repeated bumping against a shoebox, falling on the sidewalk or residing in a screw-down holder, the level of wear should be graded exactly the same.

Why don't the "opinion givers" focus their number-assessment on problems that people can actually see, such as poor focus or misaligned registration? Since they can't even catch blatant trimming and recoloring, perhaps they should just grade the card as authentic or not authentic (and let the owner of the card assign his/her own number).

Gee... this might actually eliminate the incentive for the Mosers, Thorns and Huigens of the world to commit fraud and keep them from getting rich by screwing and cheating the honest collector. Don't buy into the rigged system!
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  #6  
Old 05-05-2021, 07:14 PM
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The reason is that pressed corners *could be* indicative of creases or bends removed, so some companies only allow for AUTHENTIC grades on cards that were pressed in screwdown holders. In this case, PSA errs on the side of caution and actually does it right. BGS and SGC however usually get the cards and slab them once they get rejected by PSA.
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  #7  
Old 05-06-2021, 10:47 AM
kevinlenane kevinlenane is offline
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Hi - so to answer you question - yes the tech does detect pressed corners. They wind up not being flat and are at a different angle (and pixel color/contrast. The question of whether or not the pressed corner constitutes willing/obvious alteration would be up the human accompanying the software - and the grade would be impacted if that is the case. Corners can also look pressed when they are simply damaged so there is some human judgement there. This is a great example of how tech and humans can work together to make the grading process faster AND more accurate - the tech flags the cards and the grader judges them....

My personal take on corner damage would basically be a more traditional view - so in any case where you are pressing the card down with some kind of tool/press then it feels like alteration but if you are just folding the corner you damaged back down with you finger thats probably okay. Of course there is nuance and any damage anywhere is technically an "alteration" in the dictionary sense of the word - but id think if you are doing anything that could potentially change the thickness of the card you've probably crossed a line.
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  #8  
Old 05-06-2021, 11:11 AM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlenane View Post
Hi - so to answer you question - yes the tech does detect pressed corners. They wind up not being flat and are at a different angle (and pixel color/contrast. The question of whether or not the pressed corner constitutes willing/obvious alteration would be up the human accompanying the software - and the grade would be impacted if that is the case. Corners can also look pressed when they are simply damaged so there is some human judgement there. This is a great example of how tech and humans can work together to make the grading process faster AND more accurate - the tech flags the cards and the grader judges them....

My personal take on corner damage would basically be a more traditional view - so in any case where you are pressing the card down with some kind of tool/press then it feels like alteration but if you are just folding the corner you damaged back down with you finger thats probably okay. Of course there is nuance and any damage anywhere is technically an "alteration" in the dictionary sense of the word - but id think if you are doing anything that could potentially change the thickness of the card you've probably crossed a line.
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  #9  
Old 05-06-2021, 02:31 PM
55koufax 55koufax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlenane View Post
Hi - so to answer you question - yes the tech does detect pressed corners. They wind up not being flat and are at a different angle (and pixel color/contrast. The question of whether or not the pressed corner constitutes willing/obvious alteration would be up the human accompanying the software - and the grade would be impacted if that is the case. Corners can also look pressed when they are simply damaged so there is some human judgement there. This is a great example of how tech and humans can work together to make the grading process faster AND more accurate - the tech flags the cards and the grader judges them....

My personal take on corner damage would basically be a more traditional view - so in any case where you are pressing the card down with some kind of tool/press then it feels like alteration but if you are just folding the corner you damaged back down with you finger thats probably okay. Of course there is nuance and any damage anywhere is technically an "alteration" in the dictionary sense of the word - but id think if you are doing anything that could potentially change the thickness of the card you've probably crossed a line.
Thanks for explaining and your take as well. This is all very curious, as many, many collectors have a different opinion. As a matter of fact, I personally know of some very Top Brass at PSA that have told me differently. Additonally, I know of an SGC grader who told me their graders (this was some time ago) would as a courtesy press a corner flat when actually grading a card with a slight bend in the corner.

Sounds like many here, including Kevin, feel the thickness variance from pressing a corner is of issue.

Personally, I have purchased dozens, hundreds, no maybe thousands of PSA slabbed cards that have thickness variance from a pressed corner. Not only that, I have pressed many a corner flat and have PSA slab and grade them. This includes many 9's and even some Gem Mint 10's.

I happen to agree with the un-named TOP PSA EXEC on this front and think it is okay to press a corner flat.

I am guessing this will be un-acceptable going forward when the new technology is in place. YIKES!
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  #10  
Old 05-06-2021, 03:11 PM
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JollyElm JollyElm is online now
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Hey Kevin,
I have a bit of an odd question regarding your technology that I'm hoping you can address.

Are the machine 'reads' formatted specifically to suit each type/brand/year/etc. of card being graded at the time? (For instance, if a 1956 Topps card is being assessed, the machine would be turned to the 1956 Topps setting.) The reason for the question is that I collect the 1967 Laughlin B/W World Series cards, and since these were created in his home, there are some weird anomalies that may not pass the 'sniff' test in the hands of a grader. Bob Laughlin actually used (what we'd call Wite-Out today) white paint to cover black spots here and there on his cards. I've run across multiple instances of certain cards that have these edited areas on them in the exact same spots. It's quite possible that I'm the only human being alive (besides Mr. Laughlin) who was aware of this before today. My point is, when the cards were issued, the tiny areas of white paint were there, and not put their by collectors later on. Right now, I assume if they were sent to PSA they would be returned with the misguided assessment of 'altered' attached to them, because there's no way their graders are aware of this 'simple' fact.

I know this is a very specific instance, but I'm assuming the question could very much pertain to other non-standard types of cards that may have other types of anomalies about them.

Thanks!
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  #11  
Old 05-06-2021, 06:35 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Screwdown holders (without a recessed area) can flatten out the corners of a card over time. This compression will lengthen and widen certain areas of the card slightly.

Card doctors will hasten this process through pressing the corners. They will then trim the card back down to its "normal" length and width.

# # #

Seems like a valid reason to assign the scarlet letter to cards with corners thinner than the rest of the card.
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  #12  
Old 05-06-2021, 08:38 PM
Arazi4442 Arazi4442 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinlenane View Post
Hi - so to answer you question - yes the tech does detect pressed corners. They wind up not being flat and are at a different angle (and pixel color/contrast. The question of whether or not the pressed corner constitutes willing/obvious alteration would be up the human accompanying the software - and the grade would be impacted if that is the case. Corners can also look pressed when they are simply damaged so there is some human judgement there. This is a great example of how tech and humans can work together to make the grading process faster AND more accurate - the tech flags the cards and the grader judges them....

My personal take on corner damage would basically be a more traditional view - so in any case where you are pressing the card down with some kind of tool/press then it feels like alteration but if you are just folding the corner you damaged back down with you finger thats probably okay. Of course there is nuance and any damage anywhere is technically an "alteration" in the dictionary sense of the word - but id think if you are doing anything that could potentially change the thickness of the card you've probably crossed a line.
Appreciate you taking the time to respond. Really looking forward to see this technology play out.

Last edited by Arazi4442; 05-06-2021 at 08:39 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-07-2021, 05:27 AM
Jim F Jim F is offline
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Flattened corners from a screwdown or otherwise are returned by Psa as N5 -Altered Stock
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  #14  
Old 05-09-2021, 02:56 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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Pressing Out A Corner to me Is a Alteration.....you will notice the paper stock is thinned out towards the corners/edges......this I have a issue with and is crossing the line.

A corner flip laid down with the slightest of pressure imo is not, that will not thin out the card stock.

Doing the former is crossing the line to me and I considered it being doctored and NO Good to Get a Number Grade.... that’s just me Idk
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  #15  
Old 05-09-2021, 10:55 PM
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Below is an April 21st interview with Kevin and Nat Turner. AI seems like it could improve the grading process overall however I was not too comforted by Turner's abhorrence of resubmissions. He should be this upset over his graders slabbing so many expensive blatantly altered cards. Not be upset with collectors second guessing the grading room and resubmitting a card when they disagree with the grade. Not sure Turner is the guy I want running PSA.

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts...e-q6xVPgCFJD9/
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  #16  
Old 05-10-2021, 05:24 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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He uses the term “Fingerprinting”

What exactly does this mean ? He says he doesn’t like cracking and resubmitting.

Does Fingerprinting mean they place a foreign substance on the card to identify it????

This could be huge?
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  #17  
Old 05-10-2021, 05:32 PM
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No, it's the same thing BODA does: identifies unique fibers in the paper or printing flaws that specifically refer to that exact copy of the card.
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  #18  
Old 05-10-2021, 05:38 PM
Johnny630 Johnny630 is online now
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Very Interesting….
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