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  #1  
Old 08-01-2011, 01:42 PM
Deadball Deadball is offline
Jim Johnson
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Default Was Black Betsy White?

I believe artifacts should be authenticated based on objective facts about the item itself. Provenance can aid authentication, but it should not replace it. The item must stand on its own and pass tests of common sense.

Let us consider the bat Lester Erwin believed to be Black Betsy (the "Erwin Bat"), to be sold on August 4th, on its own terms.

1. Katie Jackson died in 1959 and left a baseball bat belonging to her husband, Joe Jackson, to 13-year-old relative Lester Erwin. Katie’s will does not refer to the bat as “Black Betsy.” It only refers to it generically as a “baseball bat.”

2. In the 1990s, before he decided to sell the bat, Lester Erwin told others he owned the bat for well over 30 years before it ever occurred to him the bat could be Black Betsy. The missing link was the discovery of Jimmy Thompson’s 1932 article in the Greenville News-Piedmont, which quoted Jackson saying “I sent [Black Betsy] to the Spalding baseball company and they finished it for me and stamped their label on it.” Since the Erwin Bat is a Spalding Old Hickory model, he concluded the Erwin Bat was Black Betsy.

3. The Erwin Bat is stamped Spalding Old Hickory Model 150. This is a retail model designation.

4. The Erwin Bat is curved. It is not broken.

5. Even today, the Erwin Bat is not black. The Erwin Bat has darkened considerably over time with exposure to light, as can be seen when it is compared to one of the 1930s photographs.

6. There are photographs from the 1930s of Jackson holding a curved bat with taped handle. The bat matches the Erwin Bat.

7. The Erwin Bat is 34.5 inches and 39.4 ounces.

Did Joe Jackson use the Erwin Bat during barnstorming games in the 1930s? I have no doubt. There is photographic provenance. In addition, sources as early as 1951 describe the bat Jackson used in barnstorming games as curved or crooked.

Is the Erwin Bat Black Betsy? I believe the evidence from period sources is against it. Here is what we know about Black Betsy from earlier sources:

1. Jackson told F.C. Lane, the editor of Baseball Magazine, that the bat he obtained from Captain Martin was black. He also told him it was broken. This contradicts Jimmy Thompson’s later report in which Jackson stated “It’s never been broke, although it’s getting old now and I expect it any time.”

2. Throughout Jackson’s major league career, writers consistently noted the large size and weight of Jackson’s bat. For example, in the May 19, 1920 Cedar Rapids Evening Gazette and numerous other newspapers that carried the same article, there is a photograph of Jackson with a black, two-toned bat labeled “Joe and Betsy” and with the following caption: “To be more exact, it is ‘Joe and Black Betsy,’…Black Betsy is Joe Jackson’s own style of bat. He modeled it to his own liking, and he hasn’t changed for years. Some of the other ambitious hit-smiths try to use a similar model, but it generally proves too much for them. Joe’s Black Betsy is a giant bat.” While not referring to Black Betsy specifically, The Telegraph-Herald of April 2, 1911 writes “George Stovall and Joe Jackson swing the largest bludgeons. Joe is partial to a long stick, one that can chase the wide curve balls and get them. It seems to be mighty effective and Joe would not think of using any other bat.”

3. The May 1920 news photograph specifically says the black, two-tone bat Jackson is holding is Black Betsy. By itself, this photograph is not dispositive because everyone assumed whatever bat Jackson was holding was Black Betsy. I do not accept this photo as proof the Erwin Bat is not Black Betsy any more than I would accept a 1930s photograph of Jackson with the Erwin Bat and a caption identifying it specifically as Black Betsy as positive proof.

4. Many photographs exist of Jackson batting or posing with a bat during his major league career. He is not holding the Erwin Bat in any of them. The failure to find a single photograph led to a “magic bat” theory: Jackson loved the Erwin Bat so much he was afraid to use it and break it, so he used bats he liked less. I am not sure how one squares this theory with Jackson telling F.C. Lane that Black Betsy is broken or with Jackson telling Thompson he expects it to be broken soon from use or with common sense.

5. Spalding produced a line of Black Betsy model bats for retail sale that look nothing like the Erwin Bat and everything like the Black Betsy identified in the 1920 photograph.

http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...=439&lot_qual=

According to Jimmy Thompson’s 1932 newspaper article, Spalding had Jackson’s own Black Betsy as a model.

I find it hard to believe Jackson was never photographed during his major league career with his favorite bat, that he called his favorite bat Black Betsy even though it was not black while he had black bats he called by other names, that a bat made c. 1901 would have the dimensions of the Erwin Bat rather than the dimensions common to the era, that Jackson would send a black bat he called Black Betsy to Spalding to have them “finish it” and that they removed the black finish and failed to replace it and also made it considerably shorter with a much thinner handle, that Spalding would stamp that bat not only with the Spalding name but with separate stamps denoting a retail model, that the newly finished and stamped bat would just happen to match in length, weight and stampings a Spalding store model bat, and that Spalding would then produce a Black Betsy model not patterned on the Black Betsy they had finished for Jackson.

When you have two competing explanations for something, it is better to select the one that requires the fewest assumptions. So, you can choose an explanation that requires you to assume everything I just mentioned, or you can choose my explanation, which is that the Erwin Bat is a Spalding store model used while Jackson was barnstorming in the 1930s, when he was older and needed a shorter and lighter bat with a thin handle.

Bat authenticator Dave Bushing once said publicly: “If (the Erwin Bat) didn’t have good provenance, I wouldn’t buy that thing in a flea market for $12. In the collectibles business, what you are often buying is the paper trail.” I believe the paper trail deserves some critical analysis and a major dose of common sense and that artifacts themselves and not their accompanying paper trails are primarily what need to be authenticated.

~Take the red pill

I should note that I have no issue with Heritage. As you will see in the future, I will post about any artifact I have questions or concerns about, regardless of the auction house or dealer involved.
Jim
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  #2  
Old 08-01-2011, 01:54 PM
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Default thanks

Thanks for posting Jim. As I said on the phone call we just had, My only goal is to make sure everyone is who they say they are, when posting. That previous thread of yours was not deleted as you now know. It was just put in a place out of sight until I could verify things. Whether Heritage is an advertiser, a dinner sponsor or whatever, makes no difference in what is able to be posted about on this board. Nothing goes poof when it is legitimate. Everyone is legally liable for what they say and it would be impossible to hold folks accountable without some verification process. take care
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  #3  
Old 08-04-2011, 06:58 AM
Deadball Deadball is offline
Jim Johnson
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Default Is there any defense of this bat?

The Erwin Bat will be offered at auction today. Is there anyone who still believes it is Black Betsy? Do the original authenticators still stand behind their letters?

If you still believe, can you please explain:

--why Jackson was never photographed during his major league career with his favorite bat

--why Jackson called his favorite bat Black Betsy even though it was not black, while he had black bats he called by other names

--why a bat made c. 1901 would have the dimensions of the Erwin Bat rather than the dimensions common to the era

--if you believe Spalding removed Black Betsy's black finish and failed to replace it and also made the bat considerably shorter with a much thinner handle, when Jackson asked them only to “finish it”

--why Spalding would stamp that bat not only with the Spalding name but with separate stamps denoting a retail model

--if you believe it is a coincidence the newly finished and stamped bat matched in length, weight and stampings a Spalding store model bat from the late teens

--why Spalding produced a Black Betsy retail model not patterned on the Black Betsy they had finished for Jackson

I see Heritage visited the page displaying my contact information. Given that they have not written an addendum to their lot description, I must conclude they believe I failed to raise valid points.

~Take the red pill

Jim Johnson

Last edited by Deadball; 08-04-2011 at 07:06 AM. Reason: Style...saw Heritage visited my page
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  #4  
Old 08-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Deadball Deadball is offline
Jim Johnson
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Default Heritage reply now in the proper thread

I certainly don't want to come off as defensive, but I did want to address the Black Betsy question. I've been working in sports auctions exclusively for twelve years and the bat has some of the strongest provenance I've ever encountered. You have numerous sources discussing the unusual curve of the Black Betsy. You have photos of Jackson with the bat. There are newspaper articles dating over decades. There is the will, and the letter from the heir. The notion that Jackson saved two very distinctively curved bats with early Spalding imprints for over four decades but that he and his family only acknowledged the existence of one seems astronomically improbable. We all know that PSA/DNA doesn't throw around GU 10 grades without good reason. Any smart collector knows that a little skepticism is a good thing, but this is evidence even the OJ and Casey Anthony jurors couldn't ignore. In other words, we'll take that "heavy sum" action. I'll be looking to retire in twenty years.
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Jonathan Scheier
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1-800-872-6467 X1314

placed in the thread by Jim Johnson

Last edited by Deadball; 08-08-2011 at 09:14 AM. Reason: Adding my name to post
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  #5  
Old 08-08-2011, 09:28 AM
Deadball Deadball is offline
Jim Johnson
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You can have your provenance, Jonathan. I have the bat itself, which is all anyone needs.

Your provenance and attribution relies on the word of a man who honestly came to believe over time he owned Black Betsy but who also had a chance to make half a million dollars to several million dollars by saying so in the strongest possible terms and the recollection of an eighty year-old man trying to remember fifty year-old conversations. Might these statements and recollections be subjected to some critical thinking? The photographs you reproduced in the catalog and the absence of earlier photographs supports my thesis that the bat you sold, which I will now call White Betsy or Lil’ Barnstormer, was never used by Jackson in the major leagues. All one can say is that it is a store model, Spalding bat Jackson used in the 1930s while barnstorming.

Your comparison of the “evidence” you have to the prosecution’s evidence in the OJ Simpson trial is inapposite. Prosecutors in the Simpson case had strong physical evidence in size 12 footprints matching Simpson’s and a serious cut Simpson sustained on the night of the murders. Mathematician John Allen Paulos calculated the probability those two pieces of physical evidence might turn up together at about 1 in 4,000. That is pretty strong evidence of guilt. What period evidence do you have that Lil’ Barnstormer is Black Betsy and not just a barnstorming bat? Can you present a shred of period, documentary evidence that Lil’ Barnstormer existed prior to the 1930s? Can you present a shred of evidence based on the bat itself that Lil’ Barnstormer could have been made prior to about 1916? Black Betsy, readers will recall, was made in 1901.

With respect to the physical evidence presented by the bat itself, you are forced to rely on three theories. The first is the “magic bat” theory, which is that Jackson liked Black Betsy so much he was afraid to use it or even be photographed holding it while in the major leagues, but that this fear disappeared while he was barnstorming. The second is the “bat within a bat” theory, which is that Black Betsy was black and extremely long with a thick handle, but when asked only to “finish it,” Spalding removed the black finish, made the bat shorter and the handle thinner and then applied not only the Spalding stamping but additional stampings designating a store model. The third is the “Spalding was wrong” theory, which is that even though they had Jackson's Black Betsy as a model, Spalding produced a line of Black Betsy bats for retail sale that look nothing like Lil’ Barnstormer and everything like the black bats Jackson was always photographed holding during his major league career.

Do you really want to discuss probabilities? Estimate the probability of the “magic bat,” “bat within a bat,” and “Spalding was wrong” theories each being true independently. Now multiply those three numbers together. The number you just calculated is the probability Lil’ Barnstormer is Black Betsy. Does any reader come up with a probability better than 1 in 1,000?

I can always forgive someone who makes an honest mistake. The question is what people do when confronted with new evidence. Heritage employees accessed my profile twice prior to the auction, indicating they were aware of my postings. Yet you failed to ask me any questions, did not ask for additional information, and Heritage did not make any of the evidence I presented, including multiple period documents that directly contradict the Black Betsy attribution, available to bidders. When you did respond on net54, you did so in a different thread and without attempting to answer a single question of the many I raised. You don't owe it to me. You owe it to the people who bid on Lil' Barnstormer.

You fall back on the idea “PSA doesn’t just throw around Game Used 10 ratings,” even though their rating was given before I presented my evidence and as if PSA’s rating can take the place of your own due diligence. There was a time when people in banking said something like: “Moody’s doesn’t just throw around AAA ratings for mortgage backed securities.” That thought saved them from actually having to analyze the mortgages themselves, and it did not work out so well. Letters from authenticators occasionally play a similar role in the sale of sports memorabilia, saving the auction houses from having to confront the real questions raised by analysis.

You can say it ain’t so, Jonathan, but I am afraid it is.

~Take the red pill

I started a blog, which you can find at whitebetsy.wordpress.com. In it from time to time I will share my analysis of baseball memorabilia offered for auction or sale. I promise the next one will not involve an item offered by Heritage.

Jim Johnson

Last edited by Deadball; 08-08-2011 at 09:29 AM. Reason: added name
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  #6  
Old 08-08-2011, 10:15 AM
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Default Hi Jim

Hi Jim
So from the above statement you actually own the original, other "Black Betsy?" Therefore you have a huge vested interest in the one just sold and it's a huge situation for you personally? It's always nice to know where someone is coming from. Please don't let me stop the debate. Just because you do or don't own something doesn't change any facts. take care and thanks for posting.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:01 AM
Deadball Deadball is offline
Jim Johnson
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Leon,

I do not own Black Betsy or any other Joe Jackson bat. I have no financial interest in this debate whatsoever. If I did, I would certainly disclose it.

What I meant in the first paragraph was that I have the physical evidence of Lil' Barnstormer on my side of the debate and Heritage has provenance on their side. Given a choice between the two, I take the evidence presented by the bat itself, which is inconsistent with what we know about Black Betsy from numerous period sources and common sense.

~Take the red pill

Jim Johnson
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  #8  
Old 08-08-2011, 12:09 PM
packs packs is online now
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A "Black Betsy" Joe Jackson game bat sold in a Sotheby's auction in 2008. It doesn't have much resemblance to the Erwin. The Sotheby's auction featured a Joe Jackson Black Betsy game bat from the collection of Dr. Richard Angrist.

link from old Beckett article: http://www.beckett.com/estore/news/?A=9320

I also seem to remember in the late 90s when Upper Deck started that 500 home run club bat card craze that they also had redemption cards in their products for memorabilia and one of the cards was for a "Black Betsy." I could be wrong, but I distinctly remember seeing a photo of the man who won it in an old issue of Beckett.

Last edited by packs; 08-08-2011 at 12:11 PM.
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