Vintage Set Breaks in 2023

[parkplace33]

One surprise I have seen in the card collecting community this year is the amount of online vintage set breaks. For those not familiar, you basically buy a spot to get a card from a set. Here is an example:

1939 Play Ball Set Break

Set is worth $10,000 (estimate)

162 cards in the set

$10,000 divided by 162 cards = $62 a spot

You buy in at $62 dollars to get a randomly drawn card from the break. Of course, you could get the Williams or Dimaggio or other HOFers or you could just get a common card.

It will be interesting to see if the trend continues in 2023.

[skelly423]

I'm skeptical about these types of auctions. There are plenty of bad actors out there who will gladly parcel off a few commons, and never send the big cards out (or send the big cards to friends who bought into the same break).

In theory it's a great way to get major cards for cheap, but that only works if the auction is honest, and sadly I'd wager the vast majority aren't.

[rjackson44]

run fast from these

[Rich Falvo]

I've done a handful of these, though not in a few years. I wouldn't have a problem doing it again from a dealer I am familiar with. The reputable ones broadcast the draw live and record it.

I have to say, the '52 Topps set break I participated in got pretty exciting when my name still hadn't been announced before reaching the high number series. I ended up getting a card numbered in the 330's if I remember correctly.

[ullmandds]

not for me...but...it'd be cool to see a t206 break!

[Fred]

I've never participated in something like this. How does it work? They fill all the slots and then start drawing number? I think I've heard that they do these live over a webcast to give an appearance of being completely "above board" on the actual drawing.

Do some of the companies or individuals that we hear have ethics issues try to do these set breaks? If so, do people blindly trust those people to complete the drawings?

Any links that can be provided to different set break videos?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

One surprise I have seen in the card collecting community this year is the amount of online vintage set breaks. For those not familiar, you basically buy a spot to get a card from a set. Here is an example:

1939 Play Ball Set Break

Set is worth $10,000 (estimate)

162 cards in the set

$10,000 divided by 162 cards = $62 a spot

You buy in at $62 dollars to get a randomly drawn card from the break. Of course, you could get the Williams or Dimaggio or other HOFers or you could just get a common card.

It will be interesting to see if the trend continues in 2023.

I have been in a few. Mainly got commons because that is what the odds favor. Got a rally nice HOFer in one break so basically I have got lucky and broke even.

To me it is like doing group submissions. A guaranteed win for the one doing it. I can't imagine a scenario that either don't make some cash/free submissions.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Rich Falvo

I've done a handful of these, though not in a few years. I wouldn't have a problem doing it again from a dealer I am familiar with. The reputable ones broadcast the draw live and record it.

I have to say, the '52 Topps set break I participated in got pretty exciting when my name still hadn't been announced before reaching the high number series. I ended up getting a card numbered in the 330's if I remember correctly.

I guess everyone wanted to be 311 that draw.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by Fred

I guess everyone wanted to be 311 that draw.

Definitely, but there are many cards in the set worth more than the buy-in was. I sold the common I got and basically broke even.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by Fred

I've never participated in something like this. How does it work? They fill all the slots and then start drawing number? I think I've heard that they do these live over a webcast to give an appearance of being completely "above board" on the actual drawing.

Do some of the companies or individuals that we hear have ethics issues try to do these set breaks? If so, do people blindly trust those people to complete the drawings?

Any links that can be provided to different set break videos?

Check out Burl's Sports. They do a lot of these.

[Fred]

What was the buy-in cost for the 52T set break? I guess it must have been up there considering the cost of the Mantle and a few others.

[packs]

The 52 Topps I bought into was $200 a spot. I ended up with a crappy common but it was thrilling to watch them draw spots.

[Johnny630]

This is the wave of the future. People love the low entry point chance to get a Big Card. What I've noticed from these breaks is most cards are not that nice looking for their assigned grade or raw condition. The main reason I do not participate in these is the cards are generally not in the shape I collect, the second being their addictive nature. I say to myself if the cards were that great they would sell on their own either through direct sale or auction. I feel these set raffle breaks are going to become more prominent in down card markets. So I'm a little nervous seeing more of these. Idk just me.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by Fred

What was the buy-in cost for the 52T set break? I guess it must have been up there considering the cost of the Mantle and a few others.

I think the one I did was around $85. This was more than 5 years ago, though.

[packs]

Set breaks are popular when it's a monster set like 1952 Topps or the 1986 Fleer basketball breaks. But I doubt anyone would be very interested in say a 1971 Topps set break.

I don't think set breaks have the same future as product breaks do. Buying a hobby box of anything and selling each team individually is big business right now. But I don't see the same allure with vintage set breaks. There are just too many commons in a 700 card set.

[Leon]

We have done a few set breaks on the front page before. They were very transparent and successful, as I recall. Was it a few sets from the 50s or 60s? That was 5'ish? years ago. Nick C. had done a few on the forum for me, at that time. I think a few others were done too. But those might have been done on the front page while promoting a website that did them.
.

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Leon

We have done a few set breaks on the front page before. They were very transparent and successful, as I recall. Was it a few sets from the 50s or 60s? That was 5'ish? years ago. Nick C. had done a few on the forum for me, at that time. I think a few others were done too. But those might have been done on the front page while promoting a website that did them.
.

Now a net54 set break, with Leon's sign off, that would probably be the only such Break I'd be interested in! Please consider doing one with a pre-WWI set! My guess is there'd be a lot of interest.

[GRock]

I have been in a bunch of these with Burl's.

Mixed results with some hits:
53 Satchel Paige, 53 Feller, 54 Yogi, 54 Teddy Ballgame, 56 Campy, 59 Aaron, Diamond Stars Carl Hubbell

Mostly lower grade, but it scratches the gambling itch I guess

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

not for me...but...it'd be cool to see a t206 break!

Likewise, not for me. Out of curiosity, I ran the numbers based on the T206 set in the last LOTG auction. Assuming a 20% commission/profit for the owner/breaker:

Hammer w/bp = $79000
20% breakers take = $15800
Total set price = $94800
520 spots = $182.30 /spot

Definitely doesn't seem completely unreasonable to me, but that's a lot of spots to fill.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GRock

I have been in a bunch of these with Burl's.

Mixed results with some hits:
53 Satchel Paige, 53 Feller, 54 Yogi, 54 Teddy Ballgame, 56 Campy, 59 Aaron, Diamond Stars Carl Hubbell

Mostly lower grade, but it scratches the gambling itch I guess

And he (hi Justin) was the one that did them to promote his site. It was basically paid advertising on the front page, for his breaks, and it seemed to work. Good Net54 advertising is good for our members, the advertiser and the forum (to keep the lights on).
.

[carlsonjok]

I did one here about 8 years ago where I won a 1938 Goudey Jimmie Foxx that I ended up trading to another member for 1956 Topps Jackie and Clemente plus some cash.

I've also done a number of them with Burl and actually hit a 1955 Topps Koufax a few years back. While I've also gotten other cards considered hits, I have stopped entering these breaks. No criticism of Justin, I have just gotten skunked enough that I came to accept emotionally that which I already knew logically: breaks are a form of gambling and I've never really been one to gamble. I'd rather just go to a show or bid in an auction and know what I am getting.

[deucetwins]

I recommend VintageBreaks.com. Risk vs. Reward. My # has come up for commons and has come up for hits.

[trobba]

I have thought about this for my t213 type 3.

It has a good number of cards in the set (70), but has many problems
with pricing and cost per slot because the cards trade so infrequently.

There are some incredible cards in the set, 2 Cobbs, Mathewson, Speaker, Johnson and I have some 1/1 overprints, so there is a lot of value and scarcity in the group. Guessing it would be hard to get 70 people to buy a slot for something like 2, 3 or $4000 per.

I think it would be great fun to do a live drawing.

Rob

[notfast]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

I recommend VintageBreaks.com. Risk vs. Reward. My # has come up for commons and has come up for hits.

Ive never seen any of theirs be even close to FMV. Everything is always ridiculously inflated.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by trobba

I have thought about this for my t213 type 3.

It has a good number of cards in the set (70), but has many problems
with pricing and cost per slot because the cards trade so infrequently.

There are some incredible cards in the set, 2 Cobbs, Mathewson, Speaker, Johnson and I have some 1/1 overprints, so there is a lot of value and scarcity in the group. Guessing it would be hard to get 70 people to buy a slot for something like 2, 3 or $4000 per.

I think it would be great fun to do a live drawing.

Rob

that would be epic!

[Leon]

I would recommend against this. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that you are bidding up all T213-3 overprints you see. Take you out of the equation, and what I just paid 2500 for, becomes 1500 or less. Keep protecting.

Originally Posted by trobba

I have thought about this for my t213 type 3.

It has a good number of cards in the set (70), but has many problems
with pricing and cost per slot because the cards trade so infrequently.

There are some incredible cards in the set, 2 Cobbs, Mathewson, Speaker, Johnson and I have some 1/1 overprints, so there is a lot of value and scarcity in the group. Guessing it would be hard to get 70 people to buy a slot for something like 2, 3 or $4000 per.

I think it would be great fun to do a live drawing.

Rob

[Fred]

I finally had time to check out one of the Burl's break. Now I understand how it's done. I'm assuming all set breaks are completed with the "Randomizer". Is that correct?

Looks like it could be entertaining for a few minutes while they run the randomizer.

An assumption is that each card is evaluated prior to the break and a $$ value assigned to it to reach a total value. Does the person running the break add a percentage for their troubles (running the break, packaging, shipping, etc.)? If so, what's the usual percentage?

I get that the total value is divided by the number of cards and that's how the entry cost is determined.

One difference between this and a state lottery is that you will at least have something to show for every entry.

[trobba]

Hi Leon,

Not really sure I get the meaning of your post. I don't believe the value of a few overprints out of a set of 70 has much to do with my decision to do a set break. I was simply commenting on a few of the cards in the set that were special, no more no less.

What troubles me more is the connotation that my bidding pattern is artificially driving up prices for certain cards. Suggesting I am "bidding up" cards doesn't strike me as a positive practice, and since it's only a "guess" on your part I find it even more irksome. The overprints come up quite infrequently, however one did just trade in the REA auction. I took the liberty of taking a screenshot of the bidding, trying my best to hide my bidder ID while still showing the higher bids which stretched all the way to $2000 (pre-BP), none of which I was a part of above $800. So, I am not protecting, artificially inflating or otherwise manipulating prices in any way. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive to your comments, but it felt like the thrust of your comment was aimed at my bidding of t213-3 overprint cards when this thread is entirely about something else.

Rob

Originally Posted by Leon

I would recommend against this. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that you are bidding up all T213-3 overprints you see. Take you out of the equation, and what I just paid 2500 for, becomes 1500 or less. Keep protecting.

[Leon]

If you don't bid them up, my apologies. I thought you had bid on the one in REA, from one of your comments. It doesn't matter to me how you bid, or what you bid on. If someone (and I bet thousands do) want a particular card to stay at a level, they can buy them or bid whatever amount they want to. If I see a great card at a good price, I am possibly going to bid on it, even if I have a few already.

But the response was on target since we are talking about set breaks and you mentioned the T213-3 overprints. In a relatively thin market, dropping a lot of them out at once, would most likely depress the prices. That said, I guess in a break, the person doing the breaking actually sets the value vis a vis the ticket price.

Originally Posted by trobba

Hi Leon,

Not really sure I get the meaning of your post. I don't believe the value of a few overprints out of a set of 70 has much to do with my decision to do a set break. I was simply commenting on a few of the cards in the set that were special, no more no less.

What troubles me more is the connotation that my bidding pattern is artificially driving up prices for certain cards. Suggesting I am "bidding up" cards doesn't strike me as a positive practice, and since it's only a "guess" on your part I find it even more irksome. The overprints come up quite infrequently, however one did just trade in the REA auction. I took the liberty of taking a screenshot of the bidding, trying my best to hide my bidder ID while still showing the higher bids which stretched all the way to $2000 (pre-BP), none of which I was a part of above $800. So, I am not protecting, artificially inflating or otherwise manipulating prices in any way. Perhaps I am being overly sensitive to your comments, but it felt like the thrust of your comment was aimed at my bidding of t213-3 overprint cards when this thread is entirely about something else.

Rob

[Lorewalker]

I enjoy gambling as much as anyone but when it comes to the hobby I prefer it remain as pure as possible. Breaks are just not for me but I can certainly see the appeal.

I would prefer to just save and go buy the card I want in the condition I want.

[gabrinus]

Rob (Trobba) may be the least offensive guy on here and after knowing him for many years I have always known him to be very honest and trustworthy...Leon, that was a strange dig you took at him...it would be great if one person had the power to raise prices...Jerry

[parkplace33]

Seeing more and more of these vintage set breaks, especially in the last two weeks. They all sell out (from what I have seen). I anticipate more of the same this year. I wonder if complete sets will go to auction houses or will now be broken using the set break format.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Seeing more and more of these vintage set breaks, especially in the last two weeks. They all sell out (from what I have seen). I anticipate more of the same this year. I wonder if complete sets will go to auction houses or will now be broken using the set break format.

These Raffles are occurring more and more on Facebook Card Groups...people love the thrill of the Chance. I agree this is the new way to sell cards. Graded or ungraded, doesn’t even have to be a set break.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

These Raffles are occurring more and more on Facebook Card Groups...people love the thrill of the Chance. I agree this is the new way to sell cards. Graded or ungraded, doesn’t even have to be a set break.

This is the same formula that the card manufacturers have been using for the last 20 or so years, except they were doing it with packs and inserts. Buy a pack and you get a chance to come away with a card worth 50-100x (or more) than what you paid for the pack.

Now set breakers are just following the same tried and true formula, but now targeting vintage collectors, who were previously untapped by the modern day schemes.

Enterprising organizations cashing in on our affinity for lottery type games.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

This is the same formula that the card manufacturers have been using for the last 20 or so years, except they were doing it with packs and inserts. Buy a pack and you get a chance to come away with a card worth 50-100x (or more) than what you paid for the pack.

Now set breakers are just following the same tried and true formula, but now targeting vintage collectors, who were previously untapped by the modern day schemes.

Enterprising organizations cashing in on our affinity for lottery type games.

I have seen people doing these breaks for quite a while now, and have always realized that when it comes to modern breaks, it truly does seem to be nothing more than a type of gambling scheme and way to get people to pay more than what they may usually end up getting in value. That is because in this case, no one knows what they'll actually end up getting from one of these modern breaks, which is a true gambling scenario. And more often than not, the people taking part in these modern breaks are extremely lucky if they break even and get back in value cards that are actually worth at least what they paid for their spot.

But when it comes to breaking, raffling, razzing, whatever you want to call it, of a vintage set, you are talking an entirely different scenario because the people taking part in it usually know exactly what cards (and oftentimes in what condition) are in the set that they have a chance to get from the break. As mentioned by others, the party running the break will typically look at the supposed current value of such a set, and then simply divide by the number of cards in it to come up with the spot price or buy-in. And granted, the majority of people taking part in such a break will end up winning a card(s) not worth what they paid for them. But, unlike a modern case/box break where no one knows what, if any, valuable cards they may ultimately be able to win, everyone partaking in a vintage break knows right up front that there are going to be some big value cards that a few people are going to win that are worth a heck of a lot more than what they just paid for their spot in that vintage break.

Though some people have referred to this as a type of gambling scheme by the seller/party running the vintage break, the truth is, they really only end up selling the set for about what it should be worth. That doesn't particularly sound like some potentially undesirable scheme to me. Meanwhile, the people partaking in the break often have a chance to now win a particular card from that vintage set that may be some rare, valuable, rookie, superstar, HOFer, error, or other card they need/want for their collection, or to maybe just finish their own vintage set, that they otherwise couldn't afford to do because of the crazy rise in prices of some cards since the pandemic.

Quite a while back I had opined here on the forum how I could see such vintage breaks becoming an accepted, legitimate way for older collectors to finally start moving their collections as they got older and retired from the hobby and/or downsized or even decided to cash out completely. It could also be a great vehicle for families of collectors that pass away to be able to deal with the collections they are now left with, and turn that inheritance into cash as well. Most collectors don't have the resources to buy other peoples entire sets/collections, and the dealers that do are often going to lowball what they'll pay and look for the big collection/quantity discount they can turn into a profit for themselves. AHs typically only want the big cards, and when given lots of commons and such will simply group them in lots and not always do the best job for the collector or their family. And trying to sell off one's collection by yourself can be extremely time and energy consuming, as well as not always cheap given fees that can be incurred depending on the sales platforms/venues used. Plus, other benefits of selling off sets via a vintage break are that you collect the money up front. You don't have to wait for people that win an auction or buy off Ebay or elsewhere to finally get around to paying. And though you may remove the potential for a huge home run if you don't auction off your cards and get lucky to have a couple deep-pocketed whales start a bidding war over one of your cards, you minimize the possibly greater risk that many of your cards may underperform in an auction or other marketplace, and at least get to set your overall price at a fair market value.

So, I don't see these vintage breaks as necessarily being the supposed scams or schemes that others may refer to in regard to regular breakers and all the modern stuff they sell. In those, the breakers can sell spots and open tons of boxes or cases, with no one winning anything even remotely worth what they paid for their break/raffle/razzle spot. In a vintage break you are also going to have some people paying more than what they end up winning is worth, but you are also guaranteed to have some people end up winning some great and valuable cards they otherwise may not have been able to ever afford. And for many of us vintage set collectors, such vintage breaks may be the only true, reasonable way we may have to be able to ever finish some of these vintage sets we could have been working on for years, and otherwise may no longer be able to afford to complete.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

This is the same formula that the card manufacturers have been using for the last 20 or so years, except they were doing it with packs and inserts. Buy a pack and you get a chance to come away with a card worth 50-100x (or more) than what you paid for the pack.

Now set breakers are just following the same tried and true formula, but now targeting vintage collectors, who were previously untapped by the modern day schemes.

Enterprising organizations cashing in on our affinity for lottery type games.

This is true never underestimate the addictive nature of gambling. I'm all for raffles that go towards a Charity or Cause....for Baseball Cards...no, not my thing.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

I did one here about 8 years ago where I won a 1938 Goudey Jimmie Foxx...

I believe that was one of the breaks that caught my eye. I didn't do nearly as well as you; however, I still have (and enjoy) the cards I got.

[GasHouseGang]

I have to ask. Are these "set breaks" legal? I tried to search online, and attorneys generally seem to agree there are areas of the law that may apply to box breaks and set breaks. With the caveat that the statutes may not apply to all types of box and set breaks and each situation needs to be analyzed individually.

The Cardboard Connection blog had this written by Dale Joerling:

The primary laws that apply to box breaking are state anti-gambling statutes. Virtually every state has some form of these laws. They provide that if a game, sweepstakes, lottery, giveaway, or sale of a product or service has: 1) a prize, 2) an element of chance in determining the winner, and, 3) consideration, i.e. some type of payment or activity to participate, it is an illegal form of gambling.

The principal issue with respect to box breakers would be whether all three of those elements are present: prize, chance, and consideration. Let's break down the basic elements of a box break:

Special, rare, or valuable cards or memorabilia included in some but not all boxes of less valuable cards could be seen as a prize.
Randomly including these more valuable cards in a box could be viewed as creating an element of chance of winning a prize.
Requiring people to buy a box of cards to participate may constitute consideration.
It appears that it may be possible that all three elements could be present in certain box break situations.

Some states have other statutes that could also be applicable. For example, California has a grab bag statute that pertains specifically to using grab bag types of promotions to sell trading cards.

If everyone wins "something" in a box break, does that adequately respond to the illegal gambling issues?

In most instances, the fact that "everyone could win something" is not enough to remove the element of chance. However, if everyone wins the same prize or, in some cases, the same prize value, it could be found that the element of chance has been eliminated because the participants know the value of what they will receive before they make their purchase.

I thought the issue should be brought up since it's so prevalent in our hobby. The answer could be, "It depends."

[BobC]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

I have to ask. Are these "set breaks" legal? I tried to search online, and attorneys generally seem to agree there are areas of the law that may apply to box breaks and set breaks. With the caveat that the statutes may not apply to all types of box and set breaks and each situation needs to be analyzed individually.

The Cardboard Connection blog had this written by Dale Joerling:

The primary laws that apply to box breaking are state anti-gambling statutes. Virtually every state has some form of these laws. They provide that if a game, sweepstakes, lottery, giveaway, or sale of a product or service has: 1) a prize, 2) an element of chance in determining the winner, and, 3) consideration, i.e. some type of payment or activity to participate, it is an illegal form of gambling.

The principal issue with respect to box breakers would be whether all three of those elements are present: prize, chance, and consideration. Let's break down the basic elements of a box break:

Special, rare, or valuable cards or memorabilia included in some but not all boxes of less valuable cards could be seen as a prize.
Randomly including these more valuable cards in a box could be viewed as creating an element of chance of winning a prize.
Requiring people to buy a box of cards to participate may constitute consideration.
It appears that it may be possible that all three elements could be present in certain box break situations.

Some states have other statutes that could also be applicable. For example, California has a grab bag statute that pertains specifically to using grab bag types of promotions to sell trading cards.

If everyone wins "something" in a box break, does that adequately respond to the illegal gambling issues?

In most instances, the fact that "everyone could win something" is not enough to remove the element of chance. However, if everyone wins the same prize or, in some cases, the same prize value, it could be found that the element of chance has been eliminated because the participants know the value of what they will receive before they make their purchase.

I thought the issue should be brought up since it's so prevalent in our hobby. The answer could be, "It depends."

Yeah, that has been brought up before David. There are other threads out there with the same/similar question and discussions. And I remember taking part in at least one such thread myself and going through and talking about the same three elements of gambling as you did.

As you said, the actual correct answer as to whether or not Breaking is illegal gambling seems to be - It depends!

Laws vary state by state, and how one state may apply such laws to a Breaker entity that is based and located in an entirely different state, isn't that clear. I know some guys that run one of the fairly well-known Breaker entities, based out of Ohio. And they had told me they hopefully get around the gambling definition by ensuring that everyone participating in every one of their breaks/raffles/razzes gets something, even if they would have normally gotten nothing from following the regular rules of the break. They send them something out of their own pocket/collection to ensure everyone "wins" at least something for the consideration they paid for their spot in the break/raffle/razz, or whatever you want to call it.

From what I've heard and seen, and for the record I am not an attorney, no states have gone after any Breakers in any state for illegal gambling, at least not that I've ever been made aware of. First off, I don't think any of the states see it being worth their time or trouble to go after all these Breakers, sort of a cost-benefit question/issue, if you will. Secondly, if some state ever did decide to go after a Breaker for illegal gambling, even if the Breaker makes sure that every participant in the break/raffle/razz gets something, that would then raise the question of why that state isn't also then going after Topps, Panini, and all the other card manufacturers for illegal gambling as well. Think about it, what is really the difference between buying a spot in a break/raffle/razz where a group of participants split up the contents of a box or case of cards, and those same individual participants merely buying the individual packs in the box or case, and then opening them themselves? If you think about it, the entire concept behind a pack of modern cards could be deemed to have all three gambling elements as well then.

"Consideration" is a given, since you have to pay for the pack. The "Prize" is the special limited edition/autographed/game-used, and other manufactured rarities cards that the card manufacturers will sprinkle throughout the packs they make and sell that are considered as rare and valuable. That leaves "The Element of Chance in Determining the Winner", which could be construed as the risk/chance you take in buying a pack since you don't know if any special or valuable cards will be in any particular pack. So, it seems to me that if some state did try to go after a Breaker for illegal gambling, I could easily see defense attorneys pushing to know why they aren't also going after a company like Topps as well then. It comes back to the concept that even in a break/raffle/razz, the participants are at the end of the day simply buying a product (or part of a product) that is being sold in a somewhat or slightly different way. And it seems that as long as everyone spending money to buy into the break/raffle/razz gets something from it, the states aren't going to try arguing it as a form of illegal gambling.

Let's face it, Breaking has been around long enough now that if any state really thought they could claim it was illegal gambling and go after the people doing it, don't you think at least one of them would have done so by now?

And I think the same concept may flow over to vintage breaks as well. The big difference with vintage type breaks is that the participants may actually know exactly what cards they could end up getting, and thus know for a fact that certain cards are worth more and therefore considered as known prizes. In a typical modern break, no one really knows what is going to be in the box/case being opened up, and if there will be anything of real value included in what is being opened. Do a vintage break of say a 1952 Topps set, and everyone knows the Mantle card is likely the big prize. But I think the states still look at this as more of a sale of the set, but instead of to just one individual, a sale to a group of individuals who have pooled their money to buy the entire set, and have agreed to specific terms as to how they will then divvy the cards up among themselves. So again, it looks like as long as everyone taking a spot in the vintage break gets something, they technically have purchased and not necessarily won they card(s) they end up with. And again, these types of vintage breaks have been going on unhidden and out in the open for quite a while as well now. So, if you suspect any state of having an illegal gambling issue with what is being done, you again would have expected at least one of them to have done something about it against some Breaker by now. The concept of a "Prize" as a gambling element may be construed as actually receiving something versus not receiving anything. The primary law seems to say nothing about a possible difference in value(s) among the potential prize(s) one may win in a break, but looks more at is someone receiving anything at all, versus receiving nothing.

Again, not an attorney, but just using my logic and business law experience/knowledge. But because of the differences in state laws, it probably still behooves each Breaker to review the specific laws of the state in which they are based and operate out of. Think of it this way. What if Mastro Auctions had been based out of Texas, like Heritage Auctions is, instead of Chicago? Heritage Auctions can actually bid in their own auctions (shill bid) since that is technically not illegal for an auction house to do so under Texas law. Meanwhile, Mastro was headquartered and run out of Illinois, which did not allow for auction companies to bid in their own auctions (shill bidding). Since shill bidding I believe was the primary thing the feds initially went after and investigated Mastro for, had they been headquartered and run out of say Dallas or Houston, they might have never ended up in the trouble they did, and with people ultimately going to jail. I could be wrong in my thinking and memory, and welcome corrections from anyone that knows better.

[hcv123]

Great to see the thread on Vintage breaks. It happens that I, your local and esteemed Net54 board member am running what I think is a super cool one - for an M116 Blue Background set. The thread will explain the details here (including feedback about me):

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=329101

Out of the small 25 card break there are going to be 2 big winners!