T206 "Wagner" of Soccer Cards - Proposal

[Peter_Spaeth]

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

There is significant interest in the history of soccer and certainly pre-Pele. There are countless high quality soccer museums, albeit they tend to be club or national specific. However, it is true that most of the icons of the game are from post-World War Two onwards and, other than historians, few could name any pre-World War One Stars with soccer history typically being well documented from the 1920s or so.

Culturally, it is a very different sport to baseball. There is much less interest in game statistics (a good thing IMO, although statistical overload has crept in over the past two decades) and very few traditional soccer fans could ever, nor would want to, understand the US “franchise” model. The migration of the Dodgers and Giants from NYC to the west coast simply could not happen in soccer - if, for example, an owner tried to relocate Manchester United to London or Internazionale from Milan to Rome, there’d be civil unrest to an extent that the league would become unmanageable.

However, from a collecting perspective, I believe the key difference is that cards are much less intrinsic to soccer culture than in baseball. For example, Gallaher was a large tobacco company formed in the north of Ireland (what would later become Northern Ireland). Certainly in the 1910s and 1920s, they were prolific issuers of cards of Irish (and English / Scottish) soccer players - they would presumably have been obtained by grandparents and great-grandparents of many soccer fans here in Northern Ireland but, although I know many collectors of soccer memorabilia here, few are interested in cards nor do I know of any who have an emotional attachment to cards based on their prior family generations having built up collections - albeit many were clearly retained as they are easy to purchase today in good condition.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

There is significant interest in the history of soccer and certainly pre-Pele. There are countless high quality soccer museums, albeit they tend to be club or national specific. However, it is true that most of the icons of the game are from post-World War Two onwards and, other than historians, few could name any pre-World War One Stars with soccer history typically being well documented from the 1920s or so.

Culturally, it is a very different sport to baseball. There is much less interest in game statistics (a good thing IMO, although statistical overload has crept in over the past two decades) and very few traditional soccer fans could ever, nor would want to, understand the US “franchise” model. The migration of the Dodgers and Giants from NYC to the west coast simply could not happen in soccer - if, for example, an owner tried to relocate Manchester United to London or Internazionale from Milan to Rome, there’d be civil unrest to an extent that the league would become unmanageable.

However, from a collecting perspective, I believe the key difference is that cards are much less intrinsic to soccer culture than in baseball. For example, Gallaher was a large tobacco company formed in the north of Ireland (what would later become Northern Ireland). Certainly in the 1910s and 1920s, they were prolific issuers of cards of Irish (and English / Scottish) soccer players - they would presumably have been obtained by grandparents and great-grandparents of many soccer fans here in Northern Ireland but, although I know many collectors of soccer memorabilia here, few are interested in cards nor do I know of any who have an emotional attachment to cards based on their prior family generations having built up collections - albeit many were clearly retained as they are easy to purchase today in good condition.

Yeah, footballers are evaluated based on technique, skill, touch, speed, vision, etc rather than OBP, WAR, Home Runs, etc. Accordingly, it’s hard to properly appreciate players who don’t have footage on YouTube. The game was also so decentralized before the World Cup and European Championship eras, so who knows how good Dixie Dean was relative to Paulino Alcantara.

I’m not sure if cards (well, stickers) are less intertwined with soccer than baseball. Maybe it depends on the region. I know match programs were big in the UK but I think stickers predominated in South America.

The Puskas and Nasazzi are both awesome cards. Always great to see any important Pre-War issues.

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by Anish

I’m not sure if cards (well, stickers) are less intertwined with soccer than baseball. Maybe it depends on the region. I know match programs were big in the UK but I think stickers predominated in South America.

I originally started collecting soccer purely for speculation / investment. Part of my logic on this is that in the US, I think baseball cards will become less popular/expensive after my generation (those that grew up in the 80s / early 90s) starts to die off because baseball cards won't have been an active part of a kid's childhood. I grew up in a time where we all took our binders of cards to school and traded at recess.

I think that soccer will increase in value because every 4 years kids around the entire world collect soccer stickers right now. These kids will all grow up into adults and will someday gain a disposable income (especially as the world economy becomes intertwined and lifts incomes in poorer countries). And these kids will want to buy into the nostalgia, just like I do.

So I see that cards (stickers actually) are completely intertwined with soccer and will become more and more recognized as such in the generations to come.

It does seem that this is less the case in England. And it is also not the case in the US. But in Italy and South America, parts of Asia and Eastern Europe, I think this is definitely the case.

[sthoemke]

Which vintage soccer sets are most widely collected?

The T206 Wagner and 1952 Mantle aren't the rarest cards by any means, but the sets have a huge collector base, which attributes greatly to demand and value.

My knowledge of soccer sets is limited, but I would be inclined to choose a card from a one of the more well-known companies - Panini, SADA, Lampo, Mira, etc. Cards/stickers from album sets can be especially condition sensitive, and in some cases near impossible to find in rare form. Many sets have scarce variations such as Panini's Valida backs which might be canidates for a holy-grail card consideration.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by sthoemke

Which vintage soccer sets are most widely collected?

The T206 Wagner and 1952 Mantle aren't the rarest cards by any means, but the sets have a huge collector base, which attributes greatly to demand and value.

My knowledge of soccer sets is limited, but I would be inclined to choose a card from a one of the more well-known companies - Panini, SADA, Lampo, Mira, etc. Cards/stickers from album sets can be especially condition sensitive, and in some cases near impossible to find in rare form. Many sets have scarce variations such as Panini's Valida backs which might be canidates for a holy-grail card consideration.

But from what I can tell, there are not that many that compare to 1952 Topps or T206s

[Anish]

According to this guy, this the Wagner of soccer cards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1902-J-F-Be...from=R40&rt=nc

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Anish

According to this guy, this the Wagner of soccer cards: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1902-J-F-Be...from=R40&rt=nc

I have a few of those "Wagners" that you could have for less than 2% of his asking price!

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

So I see that cards (stickers actually) are completely intertwined with soccer and will become more and more recognized as such in the generations to come.

It does seem that this is less the case in England. And it is also not the case in the US. But in Italy and South America, parts of Asia and Eastern Europe, I think this is definitely the case.

I am a member and season ticket holder of Internazionale in Italy so I can say with some authority that cards / stickers are not the primary soccer collectable there. The money goes to shirts, especially vintage shirts, and pennants.

Walk into any of the large soccer museums in Milan (for example, the San Siro Museum) and you won't see anyone fawning over a card - rather it will be old shirts, photos, medals and trophies. Have a look at soccer auction results and cards don't get the largest prices.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

I am a member and season ticket holder of Internazionale in Italy so I can say with some authority that cards / stickers are not the primary soccer collectable there. The money goes to shirts, especially vintage shirts, and pennants.

Walk into any of the large soccer museums in Milan (for example, the San Siro Museum) and you won't see anyone fawning over a card - rather it will be old shirts, photos, medals and trophies. Have a look at soccer auction results and cards don't get the largest prices.

That’s true for all sports and countries though, right? They don’t show off cards at Yankee Stadium, they have jerseys and other memorabilia. And that stuff generally sells for the most, but it doesn’t mean that cards don’t have a place.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Baseball is drowning in stats, but they do facilitate discussions of comparing players across different eras, which people always love. I think it's relatively harder to do that in a sport far less given to stats, and it could be (just theorizing) that the lack of stats is one reason casual fans may be less interested in greats of the distant past?

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Anish

That’s true for all sports and countries though, right? They don’t show off cards at Yankee Stadium, they have jerseys and other memorabilia. And that stuff generally sells for the most, but it doesn’t mean that cards don’t have a place.

I’m not suggesting for one moment that cards don’t have a place - just that the place they have will never be comparable to the place that baseball cards have had in the US.

Some of the earlier Spanish cards of the 1920s through to 1940s are great and can be picked up at low prices. I am not a card colector nor claim knowledge of cards but I do buy these types of items regularly and have other Irish cards of well known footballers of the pre war era that are very rare - albeit not necessarily valuable.

[Collect Equity]

Originally Posted by Ulidia

I am a member and season ticket holder of Internazionale in Italy so I can say with some authority that cards / stickers are not the primary soccer collectable there. The money goes to shirts, especially vintage shirts, and pennants.

Walk into any of the large soccer museums in Milan (for example, the San Siro Museum) and you won't see anyone fawning over a card - rather it will be old shirts, photos, medals and trophies. Have a look at soccer auction results and cards don't get the largest prices.

You may be right that the most collected items currently are shirts and pennants, especially by adults.

However, the reason I collect cards is because as a child it let me get close to my baseball heroes. I love baseball and was never very good, and loved to pull out my cards so that I could feel close to the game. Also, cards make a good collectible because of their size.

So, Ulidia, I am curious if you were to take a poll of 20 kids in the neighborhood or at the soccer stadium, how many collect soccer stickers and if not, do they collect anything else that does let them feel close to the game (magazines, jerseys, etc.)?

My hypothesis is that lack of nostalgia from kids not collecting baseball cards today will lead to a dearth of baseball card collectors in 30 - 40 years. But because kids today collect stickers around the world (especially Panini WC stickers), that soccer cards will become more and more popular over the next 30 - 40 years.

I really am interested in knowing if kids in your neighborhood or who you meet at the soccer stadium collect stickers now.

[aljurgela]

OK guys, some of you may have seen my posting on Leonidas Da Silva, but probably my favorite card of his (and one of my favorite soccer cards in general), if the 1950 Tinghalls Leonidas.

This card (and all of the Sao Paulo issues) of Tinghalls are exceedingly rare and I know of just three copies of this card. It appears that they were made to celebrate a tour of the Sao Paulo team in Sweden.

The last time that I saw this card at auction was about 5 years ago or so and it brought $800. I did not win that card and had to pay much more than that to get this copy. Anyway, enjoy.

[Anish]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

You may be right that the most collected items currently are shirts and pennants, especially by adults.

However, the reason I collect cards is because as a child it let me get close to my baseball heroes. I love baseball and was never very good, and loved to pull out my cards so that I could feel close to the game. Also, cards make a good collectible because of their size.

So, Ulidia, I am curious if you were to take a poll of 20 kids in the neighborhood or at the soccer stadium, how many collect soccer stickers and if not, do they collect anything else that does let them feel close to the game (magazines, jerseys, etc.)?

My hypothesis is that lack of nostalgia from kids not collecting baseball cards today will lead to a dearth of baseball card collectors in 30 - 40 years. But because kids today collect stickers around the world (especially Panini WC stickers), that soccer cards will become more and more popular over the next 30 - 40 years.

I really am interested in knowing if kids in your neighborhood or who you meet at the soccer stadium collect stickers now.

I think video games (eg FIFA) have replaced cards.

That being said, many people collect items from before their time (myself included) as opposed to items from their childhood.

[Ulidia]

Originally Posted by Collect Equity

So, Ulidia, I am curious if you were to take a poll of 20 kids in the neighborhood or at the soccer stadium, how many collect soccer stickers and if not, do they collect anything else that does let them feel close to the game (magazines, jerseys, etc.)?

My hypothesis is that lack of nostalgia from kids not collecting baseball cards today will lead to a dearth of baseball card collectors in 30 - 40 years. But because kids today collect stickers around the world (especially Panini WC stickers), that soccer cards will become more and more popular over the next 30 - 40 years.

Here in the British Isles, until today, the main soccer collectible has been the match program (programme) because it has related to a specific game. That has been the primary collectible because those kids attending games got one and kept it and those kids who weren’t able to attend wished they did.

Program collecting would be the closest UK sports comparable to baseball card collecting albeit much smaller values at the high end i.e. it still raises eyebrows when a program sells over $10k or equivalent.

However, program collecting is slowly declining - prices have been falling generally (or at best static for really top end items) for over a decade. More so, this will be significantly impacted by the increasing decision of clubs not to issue program for individual games - so fewer kids will get into the hobby. Ultimately, the match day program may, to some extent, go the same way as the daily newspaper.


Cards were collected in the past. Since Panini (and a number of rivals) made it big here some decades ago, cards were eclipsed by stickers as a collectible. Kids do collect Panini stickers but, in the 1980s and 1990s they sold much higher numbers than today. Interestingly, the attraction to Panini stickers here tends to be more from adults who did collect them and swap them in the prior generations.

To give you an example, my beloved Northern Ireland qualified for the 2016 European Championships, the first tournament they qualified for since 1986. It elicited excitement for many people of my age (heading towards mid 40s) because it meant we’d have Northern Ireland in a Panini sticker album for the first time since the 1986 World Cup. I’ve got completed 1982 & 1986 Panini albums because of the Northern Ireland team.

So there’s definitely a place for stickers / cards but, of the serious collectors over here (serious in terms of money spent, albeit generally modest versus US), they don’t want to spend their money on stickers or cards of players.

[aljurgela]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al, as someone who is an outsider here, it seems to me that except perhaps among very hard-core collectors/fans there isn't much interest in soccer cards or the history of the sport itself pre-Pele. That seems to differentiate soccer from baseball where (except perhaps with the very latest generation) everyone is somewhat familiar with the greats of the game from the turn of the century on. Maybe I'm just projecting my own outlook, but I have talked to several guys who buy some soccer cards and they pretty much feel the same way. So I am not sure a pre-war soccer card is really a meaningful equivalent to the Wagner. Just my .02 which I would discount at least to .01.

Because of the global nature of the game and so many competing leagues (and players), I think that I will try and pull some of this together and potentially publish a bunch of information that could be helpful.... Still, I think that we are awhile away from broad acceptance of any players outside of the top 10/20 global players...