ESPN: Famous Honus Wagner card sells for record $2.35M

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I think uncut sheets will sell for less than the cards combined in similar condition because of the PSA registry collectors - they don't want sheets they want pristine cards. If there was a way to cut the cards that they would be undetected and placed into slabs you would probably see the prices for sheets going higher. - I do realize that cards can be cut by machine, but I'm guessing if a highly publicized goudey sheet with a Lajoie were to be sold by Masto or somesuch then a few weeks later a PSA 9 Lajoie shows up there's going to be some questions....and now I'm just rambling.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Since the Gretzky Wagner came from an uncut sheet. Would you consider it to be an uncirculated card.

Peter

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEON referred to the veterans in the hobby, who well know the history of this Wagner card.
I am not sure if it came from an uncut sheet. My recollection is that it was from an original
collection from Long Island, NY.

I personally saw it up close in the mid-1980's at Willow Grove in it's "NAKED" form. But, I am
not going to talk about it any further. However, here is the link to Bill Heitman's post on this
Forum which tells us the real story. It is very interesting reading and may shock a lot of you.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/message/1131705519/last-1132579205/More+on+PSA>

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The card had acquired the most valuable thing in the world for non-essential items: fame. The card isn't as rare as many others and it may even be cut down from a sheet. Guess what: no one who could buy it cares! The card is the best known card in the world and that alone will drive its price. Perhaps some day the rich men who buy cards like this will collectively tire of puffing out their...chests and saying they own the #1 card in the world, but I don't see that happening. If rich men with toys were rationally analyzing their purchases, they wouldn't buy T206 Wagners, Picasso paintings, Ferraris, or Anna Nicole Smiths, now would they? The motives for owning a rare and expensive toy are non-financial; the cash is secondary. Hell, the seller could have tripled his money in the last five years in any of a dozen hot real estate markets, but he wouldn't make the news and be known as the man who owned the best toy ever.

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Posted By: J Levine

Josh,
I am a hobby veteran in my own definition. I have 20 years experience with vintage cards (granted mostly Phillies and T205s) and think that many people who have had more than 20 years have examined the card.

Back in 1991 at the National in Anaheim a friend of mine and I were both able to actually hold this Wagner in our hands. We were then chased off by the owner because we had pulled out a couple of T206 commons and held them behind the wagner. It is trimmed. Very slightly but the two or three commons we held were all visible behind the wagner. I understand it was cut from a sheet but I still feel that it may have been trimmed a second time to even up the borders before PSA got their hands on it.

Granted, this is only my opinion and my choice of commons may have been off, or my eyesight, or ???. Take with it what you will.

Joshua

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Posted By: T206Collector

...Bill Heitman's entry in the link posted above, I sat back once again, safe in the knowledge that all of my T206 cards are SGC graded and not a single one lingers in a PSA holder.

To all of those who have their collections in PSA, I'm sure you have pently of rationalizations for why stuff like this doesn't matter. I'm just glad I don't have to rationalize.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Good analysis Adam. Ego is the whole ballgame here and you're right, they're just toys to own for awhile and then discard. Some joy of ownership along the way for sure, but you still hit the bullseye.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Duly note that in the State of California, the seller of an item like this is required to include paper document guaranteeing the authenticity and stating any known alterations or restorations. The new owner has a period of time to return the item if the statements proves not to be true, and the original seller could be fined if it is shown he or she broke this law.

This law was written in response to fine art fraud and forgery, but also explicitly applies to the sales of collectibles worth a minimum of a certain amount.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

http://www.scpauctions.com/

i received an email from SCP just now, with this announcement.

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Posted By: Neal Kane

<<To all of those who have their collections in PSA, I'm sure you have pently of rationalizations for why stuff like this doesn't matter. I'm just glad I don't have to rationalize.>>

I don't have to rationalize either ... and I collect mainly PSA graded cards. I also own a few SGC graded cards, and that area of my collection is growing.

I do not the true story behind the card, nor do I care. PSA has graded a ton of cards. Many of them have been overgraded, many have been undergraded, and many of them have been altered and then slabbed -- I hear about those often. I would imagine that other grading companies have a pretty close percentage to what is over/under graded, as well as altered material that somehow got slabbed.

To post on how PSA got a grade correct would make some pretty boring reading. As far as my collection goes, PSA has gotten it right pretty much every single time.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that "other grading companies have a pretty close percentage to what is over/under graded, as well as altered material that somehow got slabbed," only SGC provides you with the buy back guarantee. To me, that is the key to purchasing graded cards.

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

I prefer SGC also, but then I liked CTA better than PSA also and look at what happened to them. I have to admit though that PSA knows how to market themselves. Their recent full-page ads in hobby periodicals focus on their registry.

From a marketing viewpoint, it makes a lot of sense, because that's where they can clearly differentiate themselves from other grading companies.

Peter

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I have been contacted by several people wanting to know more about the Wagner card. If you do, feel free to e-mail me. I have written down what I know and am not typing it again, but will forward it to anyone in an e-mail that wants to know. E-mail me at tycobb@adelphia.net. Don't get worried if I don't respond until later tonight, as I have a ton of things to finish doing for the day.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Quote by T206C.
"When I read... Bill Heitman's entry in the link posted above, I sat back once again, safe in the knowledge that all of my T206 cards are SGC graded and not a single one lingers in a PSA holder."
*
*
T206C. I'm surprised you said that.
Somehow, some of the slab aficcionados keep forgetting that the Rosen/Keith O./Joe Doyle error card fiasco was entombed in an SGC holder.

I just want to be totally unbiased, and democratic about the who's the betta slabber topic.

I want to go on record.
I enjoy cracking, and freeing any poor defenseless T206 creature from whatever enslaving company, regardless of brand, factory # and religious belief.
Try carrying around a binder filled with 525 slabs and tell me that it's fun.

It sure is easy to see who the collectors and investors are in this forum.

Whatever happenned to collecting cards for fun, and as a sublimation to the investing world around us?

The mindset of a collector, and the mindset of an investor, are totally two different animals.
On this forum, they can coexist without a problem.

When I was into stocks, I never considered my portfolio as part of a collection. ... There were short, and long term hopes to make money. .... hopefully was a key word.

Which brought me to collecting baseball cardboard.
A form of distraction, or sublimation to hopefully forget the realities of the investment world.

I must say that I succeeded in my goal to have fun.
Totally refused to let the investment mindset to get into my game, and it worked for me. ... to each, his own.

Are you a collector, or an investor?

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Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

I don't see it as two different animals. I'm both a collector and an investor. I have a core group of about 250 cards that are part of my collection and not for sale. Then I have about 199,000 other cards that I don't know what to do with. These other cards I would trade, sell, or give away when the time is right.

Peter

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Posted By: Jay

I agree Peter. I have less than 100 cards in my collection (excluding 1 high grade 1950's set). I sold everything else for these reasons.

I am really curious as to who bought this card. We know that it was a lesser known private collecter from the LA area. Anyone card to elaborate...

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Posted By: Alan

My guess is that the buyer could be Gary Cypress.

http://www.psacard.com/smrweb/backissues/smr0505/cypress.chtml

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Posted By: Myron

What's up with all the secrecy regarding the history of this card? It makes me think someone's got something to hide.

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Posted By: MikeU

"Since "alot" of folks believe this card to be trimmed...IF it were sent to SGC to crossover, would SGC slab it nrmt as well....or give it an authentic label? Would the prestige of the card be too overbearing to allow SGC to just stick it as authentic?"

I am certain they would love to grade the card and it would get an AUTH grade. I do not think they would do a SGC 88 (Hand Cut) grade, as that is reserved only for cards that did not come cut from the manufacturer at all.

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Posted By: MikeU

"T206C. I'm surprised you said that.
Somehow, some of the slab aficcionados keep forgetting that the Rosen/Keith O./Joe Doyle error card fiasco was entombed in an SGC holder."

The Doyle error is THE SGC legacy of F-Up's. I am not sure why certain people feel the need to bring this up to bash SGC, because the real truth shows that SGC is second to none when it comes to standing behind their product. This is also why the PSA 8 Plank and Wagner would never be anything but AUTH in an SGC holder. What happened with the Doyle:

1. SGC admitted failure.
2. SGC paid Rosen back the money he paid for the card plus his advertising expenses.
3. I believe Rosen paid around $8,000 for the card.

I assume SGC is not very proud of this moment in history, but I would publish this in every issue of their SGC collector magaizine to show the guarantee in action.

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Posted By: jay behrens

SGC has had one major screw up and did the right thing when it was exposed. PSA has a litany of major screw ups and refuses to admit to their mistakes. Dan McKee can testify to the fact that it takes a law suit in order to get any money out of PSA when they screw up.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

I think you missed my point completely.
Read what led up to it again.
Before you jump into the pool, check to see if there's water in it.

I wasn't putting down SGC in their what you call the Universally known Rosen/Keith O./Doyle error .. THE SGC legacy of F-Up's.

If you read and followed this thread, you'll see where T206C. was flaunting the SGC banner over the poor PSA parishioners.
He was declaring the wisdom, and the unfaulty ways of SGC without mercy. .... just like you are.

I couldn't help it.
Something got a hold of me.
I just had to come to the aid of the poor misguided lambs from the PSA cult.
So what did I do.

I reminded T206C. ... of the Great SGC Mother of all F-Ups.

MikeU. ..... I'll have you know, that I don't play favorites.

It doesn't matter to me, whether it's a GSC or PSA that I crack open.

Joe P.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

"There are many people...as well as quite a few on this board that believe the card is trimmed."

Olbermann seems to think so. He mentioned the Wagner sale on Countdown tonight and commmented on the fact that the card is visibly smaller then it had been in the past. Judging by his comments and tone of his report, I would say that he has his doubts about the uncut sheet theory.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

For many hobbyists the rule of thumb is that someone who spends $2.35 million on a
baseball card probably can afford a better lawyer than them; and if they're going
to be sued to destitution, it should be for something better than disrespecting
a baseball card.

The smart hobbyist saves his chat board card disrespecting for cards worth less than
$10. So if a Net54 member wants a free flow of critiquing, he should post a scan
of a 1988 Fleer.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

My guess is Dreier bought it.

This wouyld be a $5 million card minimum if it were widely viewed as a legit psa 8.

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Posted By: Richard

I wonder how this sale will impact the prices of other Wagner cards like E90-2, E103, E107, etc. What is the opinion on this?
Thank You

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Posted By: Dave

This wouyld be a $5 million card minimum if it were widely viewed as a legit psa 8.


What Jim? So even YOU believe this card has been altered and isn't an 8??? Why the double standard? Your PSA 8's and 9's are all legit..but the Wagner isn't? Ha ha.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Two points:

(1) "T206C. was flaunting the SGC banner over the poor PSA parishioners.
He was declaring the wisdom, and the unfaulty ways of SGC without mercy."

Absolutely not. SGC are human, but willing to acknowledge their humanity and make it right with their buy-back guarantee. Apart from more consistency of grading, better customer service and nicer holders, it is this that really separates them from PSA.

(2) In JimC's defense, he has readily admitted to me that not all of his PSA 8's are on the up-and-up.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"Absolutely not. SGC are human, but willing to acknowledge their humanity and make it right with their buy-back guarantee."
*
*
Blessed be for the humanitarians at SGC.
We can now safely say that the Union, and the baseball card investments are preserved.

A little background is in order.
Before the grading humanitarians migrated from the Numismatic Market to the fertile fields of baseball cardboards (AKA the hobby), the collectors and dealers graded their own cards.
They looked at, and handled enough cards so that they were able to grade their own.
They read the Lipsets, and Heitman's plus dig deep into their research.
No PC's, therefore it wasn't easy to pick brains like it's customary here.
There was no getting away from doing leg work, and exchanging thoughts without the help of a PC.

The problem was, and it still is:
That Beauty Was in the Eye's of the Beholder.
Dealers and collectors were not always in agreement on the grades.
Therefore, "Abargainigan" was the order of the day at shows.
You know what, the give and take was fun.

So here comes the slab humanitarians, after screwing up the numismatic hobby offering the card board collectors the perfect way to grade Sides and Corners.

I'll be the first to agree that they were great with Sides and Corners.
They were good.
They were pretty, but guess what?
Why the question by da slabheads of Who's Da Betta Slabba?

We're back to the old school collectors.

The only difference is that besides knowing how to grade their own cards, due to their many trials and errors, they also are more likely better at spotting an altered, or doctored card.
It took Mark Macrae, and I a long time to convince a mile high dealer at the Texas national in 1990, that he had a non Kosher card.

The slabber contribution to my cardboard hobby is that they helped make it an Investment Game. ... enjoy the game.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

So Mr. Dreier is not the buyer. Bad guess. But somehow SCP may be involved I hear. Interesting.

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Posted By: peter chao

Jim,

SCP was the minority partner in the purchase. I suspect they are going to try and get all the publicity they can out of the Getzky Wagner and then sometime down the road auction it off.

Peter

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

Have any idea when the next SCP Auction will take place. Thanks.

Peter