Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

This is just about the part I made bold. This may seem strange to some but I have no problem with Leon taking Brents $ for advertising. Seriously do you stop watching a channel on TV because they aired a commercial you don't like. I may not like the advertisement but I sure as hell like the channel/forum or I wouldn't be here.

He is letting all this go down on HIS forum, gotta respect him for that.

Someone might want to quote this for posterity.

[Tennis13]

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Tennis13

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

[pokerplyr80]

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

[perezfan]

NM

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

Paleo diet for me as well....

While it is an opportune window for SGC, I would REALLY love to see RAW trade at a premium. May never happen... but who better than us, to determine what looks best. Without "preferred" clients, severe time constraints and hoards of cards to sift through, most of us can blow the doors off those guys anyway!

[sayheykid54]

This past weekend I noticed a nice Ty Cobb pin PWCC was selling. Based on the craziness surrounding PWCC lately, it made me look a lot closer at the pin. I noticed that the back rim was an untarnished brighter silver in appearance. Thoughts on the pin? Am I being paranoid??

I decided NOT to bid on the auction.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

Are you being serious?

[BobbyVCP]

Again for the 3rd time....
We did not remove or delete any images.

[Scott L.]

PWCC has 51 Bowmans of Mantle & Mays as well as 53 Mantle all PSA 7's closing tonight (amongst a bunch of other stuff). Will be interesting to see if final prices are affected at all.

My guess is no.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

Are you being serious?

Yes. It seems to me the issue is with PSA. If they're letting trimmed cards through, let's focus our efforts on determining why or how this is happening. That would be my suggestion. But from what I've read most aren't holding them accountable. Let's boycott pwcc, stop accepting their advertising money, but keep using PSA. Absurd.

And Bobby yes I realize that. My post was calling into question those calling for net54 members to cancel their subscriptions to your service. You explained how your site works. I am not tech savvy enough to understand it completely but as I do understand it if any scans were deleted it would have been because Ebay or someone else had them removed. And I don't even see evidence that happened.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It seems to me the issue is with PSA.

The issue is a TPG system that is overvalued by customers, because it delivers results that do not even come close to matching the expectations of those customers. Your PSA 4, SGC 50/4, BVG 4, etc. may have had its grade improved through means that you are not comfortable accepting. The odds of that being true may have always been the same — but that lingering doubt has become a large black cloud thanks to the visual “before-and-afters” that first ran like a wildfire through my signed T206 collection.

How many times have we read over the past few weeks a collector attempting to calm himself by exclaiming “That’s why I never collect anything above a PSA 5!” The truth is, if you have a graded card in your collection—a card graded at any level—the technology used by the TPG to certify that card as “unaltered” to you was woefully inadequate for making that certification, and the criminals do not have a grading threshold below which they are unwilling to go.

Go paleo. Collect what you like regardless of the TPG’s opinion. Try to hold onto any provenance you can grasp.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

(One of) the worst possible things about being in California is the pizza situation. Out here, it's 95% bread with just the tiniest whisper of sauce on top. It's like dipping a loaf of Wonder Bread into an empty Ragu jar. Places that advertise "New York Style Pizza!!!!!!!" (yes, that's how it's usually written) are so full of crap. Theirs is comprised of 'only' 94% bread. Yeah, big difference. The best day of my life in the past few years was when my sister flew out to visit and carefully packed 8 slices of Little Vincent's pizza (from Long Island) in her luggage. I ate like a king that night.

A bit delayed (these threads are moving way too fast for me to keep up!) but your sister is awesome for doing that!

[jad22]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2204

Amazing.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by jad22

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2204

Amazing.

This one should make anyone who collects T206 cards sick. This is a gut punch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good golly Miss Molly.

[ullmandds]

Holy moly...doyle may be next.

[Buythatcard]

I noticed that Moser won a Johnny Lipon 53 Bowman Color from me back in 11/2018. So, I wanted to see if I can find out whether he resold it at a later date. I didn't find it but I stumbled onto this.
On 12/15/18, he won a PSA 6 version of that card at Probstein's. Click on "View Original Item".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/362502649...2047675.l10137

Then I saw on May 9th 2019, an 8.5 version of this card sold at PWCC. Click on "View Original Item".


https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/352652489...2047675.l10137

What makes me believe that they are the same card, is the stain on the back. It's on the bottom of the card just below Printed in U.S.A and running up into the stats.

If I am correct, then it's not only high end cards that we need to worry about.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

If I am correct, then it's not only high end cards that we need to worry about.

There are A LOT of mid-grade cards being outed on BO as altered. You can’t hide behind a decision to collect only PSA 3s and 4s and think you’re safe.

[Peter_Spaeth]

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Among other things, claims Gary shill bid his own consignments. Pretty comprehensive in scope.

[swarmee]

Hahahahaha!!! Now they're trying to redefine shill bidding. If you bid on your OWN FREAKING CARD, it's shill bidding.

PWCC Betsy Huigens, however, did add, "It is worth mentioning that in our definition, a 'shill bid' is a bid placed in falsehood without intention of being honored. Shill bidding is something we monitor and manage carefully and we don’t have any experience of shill bidding as you describe tied to this person (Moser)."

Yikes.

[swarmee]

And if PSA wants to have any more of my business, EVERY CARD SUBMITTED BY THESE DOCTORS needs to be removed from the certification system and refunded.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Sports Card Radio was provided data of a recent 225 card PSA submission submitted by, or on the behalf of, Moser.

135 of those cards were placed in the PWCC Marketplace 2019 Premium Auction #3.

An eBay account associated with Moser, whitman111, placed a bid on 31 of the 135 cards submitted, resulting in two winning bids.

[Republicaninmass]

"A shill bid is a bid placed with no intent to honor "


Wrong again

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's like hitting the daily double, winning an altered card that was shill bid.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

And if PSA wants to have any more of my business, EVERY CARD SUBMITTED BY THESE DOCTORS needs to be removed from the certification system and refunded.

Unfortunately most of the other doctors left little or no paper trail, IMO. BO has named a few guys but it goes well well well beyond them.

[The Nasty Nati]

It's crazy that they are even getting away with recoloring. I mean I can understand how trimming can get past the PSA graders but recoloring the back of a high dollar t206 card. How do you miss that?

See Demmitt post:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2204

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

It's crazy that they are even getting away with recoloring. I mean I can understand how trimming can get past the PSA graders but recoloring the back of a high dollar t206 card. How do you miss that?

See Demmitt post:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2204

Conventional wisdom was always a blacklight would pick that up. I have no idea what to think.

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Yes. It seems to me the issue is with PSA. If they're letting trimmed cards through, let's focus our efforts on determining why or how this is happening. That would be my suggestion. But from what I've read most aren't holding them accountable. Let's boycott pwcc, stop accepting their advertising money, but keep using PSA. Absurd.

And Bobby yes I realize that. My post was calling into question those calling for net54 members to cancel their subscriptions to your service. You explained how your site works. I am not tech savvy enough to understand it completely but as I do understand it if any scans were deleted it would have been because Ebay or someone else had them removed. And I don't even see evidence that happened.

People are all over PSA and BGS. You don't have your eyes open, apparently. You're talking jibberish. I mean the post just 5 ahead of yours pointed out a boycott of PSA and BGS graded cards. Are we supposed to take you seriously.

[GoCubsGo32]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

http://www.sportscardradio.com/gary-...-bidding-scam/

Among other things, claims Gary shill bid his own consignments. Pretty comprehensive in scope.

crazy...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have no idea what to think.

Ummm...yes, you do. You just don't want to admit it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ummm...yes, you do. You just don't want to admit it.

David, do you believe David Hall, Joe Orlando and/or Steve Sloan have overtly or tacitly approved the knowing grading of altered cards, or do you think some submitters have a grader on the inside?

Let's flesh out your conspiracy theory.

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

I noticed that Moser won a Johnny Lipon 53 Bowman Color from me back in 11/2018. So, I wanted to see if I can find out whether he resold it at a later date. I didn't find it but I stumbled onto this.
On 12/15/18, he won a PSA 6 version of that card at Probstein's. Click on "View Original Item".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/362502649...2047675.l10137

Then I saw on May 9th 2019, an 8.5 version of this card sold at PWCC. Click on "View Original Item".


https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/352652489...2047675.l10137

What makes me believe that they are the same card, is the stain on the back. It's on the bottom of the card just below Printed in U.S.A and running up into the stats.

If I am correct, then it's not only high end cards that we need to worry about.

Unless I'm completely ignorant regarding how the serial numbers work on the slabbed cards, I'd say you are not correct. The PSA 8.5 has a lower serial number than the PSA 6. So based on your evidence it appears the PSA 8.5 was broken out of its slab, sent to PSA to be graded again, and was given a 6. And that is something to be worried about? Am I missing something here?

[joshuanip]

I hope the industry (TPG, auctioners, etc) response will lift us above this to put us in a better spot at the end of the day.

The hobby is too big for there not to be a measured response; its make or break and their mouse trap is threatened.... I think they will build a better mousetrap to re-instill confidence in our hobby at the end of the day.

The fact that we have this forum and BO to identify bad players and force the hands of TPGs to prevent their name from being besmirched, makes me think we will come out better from this.....

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Conventional wisdom was always a blacklight would pick that up. I have no idea what to think.

Buy special hobby paint that doesn’t have optical brighteners added to it?

[sportscardtheory]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Unless I'm completely ignorant regarding how the serial numbers work on the slabbed cards, I'd say you are not correct. The PSA 8.5 has a lower serial number than the PSA 6. So based on your evidence it appears the PSA 8.5 was broken out of its slab, sent to PSA to be graded again, and was given a 6. And that is something to be worried about? Am I missing something here?

Edit - This may not be the same card.

[CuriousGeorge]

This investigation will focus on PWCC, Brent Huigens, Gary Moser and now Bobby Binder at VCP, who foolishly got himself involved with his implausible eBay story. The good news Bobby is we won’t be the ones you need to convince so start compiling those emails from eBay because I suspect you’re going to need them soon.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, do you believe David Hall, Joe Orlando and/or Steve Sloan have overtly or tacitly approved the knowing grading of altered cards, or do you think some submitters have a grader on the inside?

Let's flesh out your conspiracy theory.

The latter.

[kateighty]

This is all a lot to keep up with but also part of why I came back to the board. I'm very rarely on BO but what's posted over there has been helpful. In talking to Leon yesterday many of us seem to be in the same boat in hoping our cards weren't involved in this mess. Any chance we could have a specific members only thread somewhat like the BST to solely share pics/links to the pre-war cards involved in all of this? Could be a good first step in narrowing things down on the pre-war side. I mean, for us, the difference between a 3 changed to a 4 is a big deal. Thoughts?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The latter.

At this point, it truly would not surprise me. In a way it would be a relief, as it would show the company as a whole wasn't as awful at this as it now is starting to seem.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Believe it or not Betsy is technically correct with her definition of shilling. An owner is allowed to bid on his or her items in most, if not all states, as long as they pay if and when they win. Now many auction houses (including mine) see the ethical flaw in the law, especially as it pertains to online auctions. Hell Ebay won't let you bid on your own offerings. If you don't believe me check the UCC I believe it's somewhere around 235. Peter and I discussed this a couple years back and he was surprised to see it in black and white as I recall. Of course the gulf between legal and ethical can be a wide one...

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

I noticed that Moser won a Johnny Lipon 53 Bowman Color from me back in 11/2018. So, I wanted to see if I can find out whether he resold it at a later date. I didn't find it but I stumbled onto this.
On 12/15/18, he won a PSA 6 version of that card at Probstein's. Click on "View Original Item".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/362502649...2047675.l10137

Then I saw on May 9th 2019, an 8.5 version of this card sold at PWCC. Click on "View Original Item".


https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/352652489...2047675.l10137

What makes me believe that they are the same card, is the stain on the back. It's on the bottom of the card just below Printed in U.S.A and running up into the stats.

If I am correct, then it's not only high end cards that we need to worry about.

They're different cards, even though the stain you mention is very similar. The defects in the red area on the back just below the No. 123 white baseball diamond are very different on each card.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by AustinMike

Unless I'm completely ignorant regarding how the serial numbers work on the slabbed cards, I'd say you are not correct. The PSA 8.5 has a lower serial number than the PSA 6. So based on your evidence it appears the PSA 8.5 was broken out of its slab, sent to PSA to be graded again, and was given a 6. And that is something to be worried about? Am I missing something here?

While each submission goes in numerical order, two orders next to each other may be vastly different.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Hahahahaha!!! Now they're trying to redefine shill bidding. If you bid on your OWN FREAKING CARD, it's shill bidding.


Yikes.

That is totally unreal. Redefining everything these days.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The latter.

Me too....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Believe it or not Betsy is technically correct with her definition of shilling. An owner is allowed to bid on his or her items in most, if not all states, as long as they pay if and when they win. Now many auction houses (including mine) see the ethical flaw in the law, especially as it pertains to online auctions. Hell Ebay won't let you bid on your own offerings. If you don't believe me check the UCC I believe it's somewhere around 235. Peter and I discussed this a couple years back and he was surprised to see it in black and white as I recall. Of course the gulf between legal and ethical can be a wide one...

Scott I recall a discussion about retracting that surprised me but you may well be right we discussed this too.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Crap you're right, it was retracting (a related subject to be sure), however having had to study this stuff specifically to get my license I'm sure I could track down this info too!

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

They're different cards, even though the stain you mention is very similar. The defects in the red area on the back just below the No. 123 white baseball diamond are very different on each card.

Thanks. It was already pointed out to me by another member. I jumped the gun on that one.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Thanks. It was already pointed out to me by another member. I jumped the gun on that one.

Darn it Howard, I thought you had one!
If not for my recent training in "cardboard forensics" by 312, Corndog and Superdan on the BO forum I would have agreed with you!