Is there Interest in an Obscure “Autograph” of an early short lived major leaguer?

[Lucas00]

I bought this postcard from an auction probably a year ago. After hanging onto and enjoying it I’ve read the back and just now noticed it’s sign off as -Toots in the top left and he talks of training. If anybody can decipher what’s all said that would be great.

Toots Shultz was a PCL player for Sacramento after his time with Phillies in 1913. He Played for The Phillies in 1911 and 1912. I am unsure if toots is pictured. If he used a teammate as a postcard I’m not certain.

Do you think Shultz Penned this? If so Is there value added that I was unaware of?
Thanks for the help.

Edit: Title is a bit misleading after reading over it. Toots Wasn’t short lived literally I am referencing his short major league career. He died in 1959.

[Michael B]

Pretty easy to read.

“Hello old Sport, and how would you like a big fat grout and some flippers today some beans and sow busom (sic). Think I will go up to Little Hatch tomorrow, like Hell I will. Hatch

“Am fine training every day going to swap a guy her (sic) next month, and another at Las Vegas on Thanksgiving day. Best Rgds Toots”

It is most likely “Hatch” and not “Toots” pictured on the front since Hatch wrote the first message.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by Michael B

Pretty easy to read.

“Hello old Sport, and how would you like a big fat grout and some flippers today some beans and sow busom (sic). Think I will go up to Little Hatch tomorrow, like Hell I will. Hatch

“Am fine training every day going to swap a guy her (sic) next month, and another at Las Vegas on Thanksgiving day. Best Rgds Toots”

It is most likely “Hatch” and not “Toots” pictured on the front since Hatch wrote the first message.

What I thought pretty much. Thanks for that. Unfortunately the words that stumped you did me as well.

But the big break that I didn't notice at all was hatch had written the original part. I guess because he referenced little hatch and his name is hatch it confused me. Would that be his son or family? Or a reference to a place? That part just never clicked.

Thanks!

Edit: think the top left says "Going to swap a Guy here next month"

[ThomasL]

"Hello old sport, and how would you like a big fat trout and some flippers today some beans and som(e) (or sour) ?busom? Think I will go up to Little Hatch tomorrow. Like hell I will. Hatch

Am fine training every day going to swap a guy her(e) next month, and another at Las Vegas on Thanksgiving day. Best Rgds (regards), Toots."


Only words Im not 100% sure on is "busom" and som(e)/sour

Since he is taking about trout it is possible Little Hatch is a lake or river. There is a Little Hatch and Big Hatch near Salt Lake City.

[ThomasL]

Can you make out the date on the stamp?

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Can you make out the date on the stamp?

Like Micheal Said I believe it says Sow Busom so essentially old English for Some steak or a similar cut of meat I assume.

Cannot make out a date unfortunately. Though dating the man's (Hatch's) uniform it would date somewhere between the 1890s to early teens. Hatch played for Sacramento in 1910 so I'm assuming it's 1910 or thereabouts.

Here is Sid Hatch's Brief Resume.
https://www.statscrew.com/minorbaseb...ats/p-07cd17a4

[ThomasL]

It's signed "Toots". It is written by one person and not two different people (Hatch and Toots) as the handwriting is the same throughout. S could also Salt Lake or a host of other places. Not enough info to make a confident judgment as too much info is needed. possible he signed it twice with two different names if his name was "Toots" Hatch I guess

[ThomasL]

Also that does look like a 1909-10 Sacramento Sacts jersey now that I look into it a little more

[ThomasL]

Toots might be a farewell and not a name as well (short for toodaloo) . IDK it is either written by a guy named "Toots" or a guy named "Hatch". I would assume the person it is address to, Clarence ?" is who he is writing/talking to. It is defiantly one message written by the same person

[ThomasL]

the S is much smaller than the 1909-10 Sacramento S
(this is 1909 team photo)

Still think it's possible "Toots" is around the Salt Lake area and Little Hatch refers to Lake/River to go fishing...looks like it is up a mountain so a natural reaction to wanting to go there would be "like hell I will"

[ThomasL]

Sid Hatch is #1 here with the 1909 LA team (1910 Reach Guide) if anyone would like to try to compare. I will try to find a better photo

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

the S is much smaller than the 1909-10 Sacramento S

(this is 1909 team photo)



Still think it's possible "Toots" is around the Salt Lake area and Little Hatch refers to Lake/River to go fishing...looks like it is up a mountain so a natural reaction to wanting to go there would be "like hell I will"

I’m not certain that the same person wrote both.
He wouldn’t have signed off best regards, toots. It would’ve just been toots. At least that’s what logic tells me. Also the transition if it was only one person from the main paragraph to the top left doesn’t make sense. And is generally seen as a reply.

I’m in touch with a Sacramento Baseball Historian who was also puzzled by the Small S. And is completely stumped.
To me the large belt shown is more common for the late 19th century and not often seen in the 1910 range. Though using postcard dating techniques it cannot be earlier than 1907 due to the Divided back. He just looks to be playing in the wrong decade to me.

Also there is another Hatch Lake in Washington state with mention of little hatch as well. And even a Hatch Road In Modesto With a nearby River.
Not trying to add more holes but I just see nothing solid yet.

[ThomasL]

The letters all look the same in both parts, capital "T" in Toots and Think are exactly the same for example.

Little info on Sid Hatch (if Baseball ref has the right guy): Born 4-23-1890 Sidney Albert Hatch. He had 3 older brothers and his have a son named Sidney Albert Hatch Jr born in 1918. Here is his WW1 draft card and his signature looks nothing like the writing on this postcard.

[ThomasL]

Looks like Clarence Hobron, and there was a Clarence Roy Hobron (born 1889) living in Modesto around 1910 on into the 1930s looks like

[ThomasL]

Ive seen many old postcard written like this one. Possible I guess that two different people wrote the same person and just used the same postcard, but the handwriting looks exactly the same, so it's also possible the person wrote on it on two different days, with the part signed "Toots" being the 2nd addition added before he finally mailed it.

[ThomasL]

Sid Hatch was at Whitter HS in 1908 he and his brother Bill were very good football players it seems...Bill played at USC as I found an article on him from 1910 getting into trouble for violating his amature status by playing baseball with Sid

not real important to this other than to point out if this postcard/photo is 1900-1908 time frame it is very unlikely to be Sid Hatch

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Sid Hatch was at Whitter HS in 1908 he and his brother Bill were very good football players it seems...Bill played at USC as I found an article on him from 1910 getting into trouble for violating his amature status by playing baseball with Sid



not real important to this other than to point out if this postcard/photo is 1900-1908 time frame it is very unlikely to be Sid Hatch

Great info,

I need your cia computer to find all this personal info! Haha kidding.

The fact it is an Rppc could absolutely pre date it 1910 and even go into the late 1800s. Apparently Rppcs did not have to follow the same rules as Government issued postcards In terms of layout. So it could possibly be earlier than we have been looking. Maybe Under a black light or some other method I could read the dated stamp.

[ThomasL]

To throw out another possibility...Milton Toots Bankhead played in Seattle and was from California...also played for Sebastopol, CA in 1915

[EddieP]

sow busom = sow bosom = sowbelly = salt pork.

The stamp dates around 1902- 05.

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by EddieP

sow busom = sow bosom = sowbelly = salt pork.

The stamp dates around 1902- 05.

Thanks for that! Is there a source I could go to date stamps?

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

Thanks for that! Is there a source I could go to date stamps?

Here you go:
http://www.hamiltonphilatelic.org/pr...nt%20Green.pdf

I was off… the stamp was in circulation 1903 to 1909. Postcards started to have divided backs in 1907. So your postcard dates somewhere around 1907- 1909.

Finally
“ Am fine training every day going to swap a guy her(e) next month, and another at Las Vegas on Thanksgiving day. Best Rgds (regards), Toots”

Could “ swap” possibly be “scrap”?

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by EddieP

Here you go:
http://www.hamiltonphilatelic.org/pr...nt%20Green.pdf

I was off… the stamp was in circulation 1903 to 1909. Postcards started to have divided backs in 1907. So your postcard dates somewhere around 1907- 1909.

Finally
“ Am fine training every day going to swap a guy her(e) next month, and another at Las Vegas on Thanksgiving day. Best Rgds (regards), Toots”

Could “ swap” possibly be “scrap”?

Very interesting, thank you for the help on the stamp. Though as I said above I've read Rppcs did not have to follow the Postcard layout back rules. What you are referring to was mandatory for Government Issue postcards not for Rppcs. That is what I've read at least. Checking eBay looking up random years between 1900-1906 some do have divided backs. Will attach an Example from 1903.

As for Swap I don't think it says Scrap Just doesn't fit the context to me.
What I think he's referring to is making a trade with another team in person.

[EddieP]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

That is what I've read at least. Checking eBay looking up random years between 1900-1906 some do have divided backs. Will attach an Example from 1903.

Maybe, but RPPCs did not become affordable and mainstream until 1907.

“In 1907 Kodak created a service called “real photo postcards,” enabling people to make a postcard from any picture they took. Postage was a penny. People went nuts and now you can too: Harvey Tulcensky and Laetitia Wolff’s new book Real Photo Postcards (Princeton Architectural Press) showcases the phenomenon with a collection of bizarre and striking images (often with equally strange captions on the back)’

http://www.themorningnews.org/archiv..._postcards.php

I , also, think yours is a later date because there is no message in the front of the postcard (even though there was space in the front, he crammed more writing in the back to fit his entire message). Out of habit, even after Congress passed the bill to allow writing in the back people still wrote messages in the front.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

That is what I've read at least. Checking eBay looking up random years between 1900-1906 some do have divided backs.

It is not possible to have been prior to 1907, that stamp is a 300b booklet stamp due to the perforations showing it is the lower right sheet position. You have no chance of it being mailed prior to March of 1907 when the booklets were issued.

[steve B]

Where most read "swap" I read "scrap"

Which makes me wonder if he also did a bit of boxing?

[Lucas00]

Originally Posted by steve B

Where most read "swap" I read "scrap"



Which makes me wonder if he also did a bit of boxing?

Who knows at this point. I feel thanksgiving day and Las Vegas does give that theory some merit!