1909-11 T206 Honus Wagner vs. 1911-16 Kotton Honus Wagner: Who Has More?

[Orioles1954]

Hello everyone,

Since practically every thread on the pre-war board is T206 related, I thought I would chime in. While at the National I was having a chat with a dealer about the T206 Wagner. Somewhere along the line I said something like "Heck, the T206 Wagner is not even his toughest tobacco card!" The dealer looked at me like I head three heads and immediately told me I was wrong....to which I believe I am not. According to the combined pop reports (if I'm reading this correctly) of PSA and SGC, there are a total of (35) 1909-11 T206 Wagner cards graded. According to those same population reports, there are a total of (16) 1911-1916 T216 Kotton/Mino/Virginia Extra of both poses combined. I'm not sure if this means anything to y'all at all, but would be interested in your input. Proportional to other T206 cards (which you could find at the bottom of the Marianas Trench), the Sweet Cap/Piedmont Wagner is obviously tougher. However, according to raw numbers in existense, I'm not so sure. Personally, I find the T216 to be much more interesting to me and at 10% the price.

J--

[rman444]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Hello everyone,

Somewhere along the line I said something like "Heck, the T206 Wagner is not even his toughest tobacco card!" The dealer looked at me like I head three heads and immediately told me I was wrong....to which I believe I am not.

James - you are not wrong. The T216 Kotton Wagner is far tougher than the T206 Wagner.

My guesstimates for known/existing populations of each:

T206: 70-90
T216 Kotton thick (types 1 and 2) throwing: 20-25
T216 Kotton thick (types 1 and 2) batting: 20-25
T216 Kotton thin (type 3) throwing: 3-5
T216 Kotton thin (type 3) batting: 5-7
T216 Mino throwing: 5-10
T216 Mino batting: 3-5
T216 Virginia Extra throwing: 0-3
T216 Virginia Extra batting: 0-3

One interesting thing to note is that T216 Wagners exist as both 2b and ss. However, from what I have seen of the T216 set over the years, I do not believe that the Wagner "ss" version (either pose) is available in either Mino or Kotton thick backs. Conversely, I do not believe that the Wagner "2b" version is available in the Kotton thin, and if a Virginia Extra Wagner were to exist, I do not believe that it would be a 2b either.

So, in summary, this is what I believe are the possible combinations (both poses):

1) Kotton thick - 2b only
2) Kotton thin - ss only
3) Mino - 2b only
4) Virginia Extra - ss only

Cannot prove it, as only a handful of each example exist for 2 and 3, and 4 may not even exist. However, this is what my gut tells me.

Similar for the Cobb, only one variation of the standing pose is found on Kotton thin.

I would be interested to hear other people's estimates on total populations.

[Orioles1954]

Maybe this topic is too esoteric for folks not to care.

[Leon]

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

"The only thing rarer than this item is a buyer"--Bill Huggins

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

"The only thing rarer than this item is a buyer"--Bill Huggins

Now that's funny......I love it!!

[scottglevy]

Ok,

So now that we're on the topic of T216s ... please dole out a little more education for novices like myself....

Where do the Kotton / Mino / Virginia Extras stack up against each other in terms of relative rarity.

What's the deal with the thick vs. thin varieties? Anyone know how and why this happened -- and which is more collected (I assume thicker would be).

Regards,
Scott

[rman444]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

Leon -

If I could correct you, the correct percentages in determining value are:

rarity 0%
supply 50%
demand 50%

[rman444]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Where do the Kotton / Mino / Virginia Extras stack up against each other in terms of relative rarity.

What's the deal with the thick vs. thin varieties? Anyone know how and why this happened -- and which is more collected (I assume thicker would be).

Scott,

There are probably a handful of threads that can be found with the search function that talk about T216s and all of the different varieties. However, the short of it is:

T216 Kotton - 3 types. Types 1 and 2 are thicker stock with 2 different backs. These are the most commonly found T216s, although commonly is relative as even these are extremely difficult compared to most other T issues. These are also the least condition sensitive due to the thicker stock - usually found in VG condition. Type 3 is, in my opinion, a whole different issue with a different back and extremely thin paper stock. They are much tougher than the first two types and are almost always found in deplorable condition.



T216 Mino - Similar in paper stock to Kotton types 1 and 2. However, these seem to be found in lesser condition, on average (G to VG). Compared to Kottons, Minos are much much tougher.



T216 Virginia Extra - Similar in paper stock to Kotton type 3's. These are also found in deplorable condition, often missing big chunks. VE's are even tougher than Minos.

I guess that wasn't so short, but hopefully it explains a little.

Any T216 experts out there, please feel free to correct.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think that we have had this discussion quite a few times and it might be the reason for the lack of enthusiasm. No doubt, in my mind, that any of the T216 wagners are exponentially more rare than the T206 Wags.

I must repeat at least 100x a yr, to someone with a rare card, that the rarity of their card is only part of the value equation and is, most times, the lesser part. It is almost entirely (90%?) about demand, with respect to value. It's just the fact. If it wasn't then I would be a lot richer than I am ......

Yes but rarity can drive demand, not like they are unrelated. I think the more accurate statement is that rarity is just one factor driving demand.

[scottglevy]

Thanks !!

Very useful summary.

[Leon]

I think Richard gave a great, brief synopsis of T216, right above. Yes, demand is the word moreso than rarity, when determining value. I think Peter, Richard and myself are just splitting hairs on the semantics. I use "demand" and "rarity" interchangably and that is not really the correct way to do it. Even above, I did it.


Here is a possibility of a Kotton type 2 packaging......Hopefully, I will have it in hand in the next few days.

[rman444]

Leon -

Congrats! That pack is an incredible find! Can I ask about the details on how you were able to locate it? Was it from somewhere around NO?

These are the best I have been able to find related to Kotton. My colored wrapper certainly appears to be a later generation of tobacco pack than yours. The uncolored tobacco pack graphics might be from the same era.

I think you might have the first Kotton pack known to the hobby!

[martyogelvie]

Aren't rarity and supply synonymous?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by martyogelvie

Aren't rarity and supply synonymous?

Yes, they are sort of synonymous but I guess they can be construed differently. IF we debate this it will be worse than the Wagner-strip debate .

Richard- Let me get it in hand and then give more details. Also, it wouldn't have held the type 1 or 3 cards, as they say "cigarettes" on the backs. The type 2s say "tobacco" though. I am not sure about it being the exact period but think it could be. More details after I receive it.......regards

ps...I remember raining on your parade a little bit on the pack you have, which is still a great pack, but as we know it's not old enough to be period. I would imagine the period packs were very simlar though and yours is a great display piece.

[tedzan]

Here is one of the Throwing poses. This card is duplicated in the T216 set with the caption titled "2b".....instead of "s.s."







TED Z

[rman444]

At the risk of starting a debate, rarity and supply are related. However, I believe that supply is more of a general term about total amount out there, without implying any specific quantity. Rarity is a measurement of supply, with the implication that it is small amount.

Leon - I can't wait to hear the details of your find! I have been collecting information and misc items from the People's Tobacco Company for years and have yet to come across anything as great as your pack.

And no worries about raining on my parade. I believe it was my coupon pack that you slapped around, but if you want to insult my Kotton wrapper as well, have at it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rman444

And no worries about raining on my parade. I believe it was my coupon pack that you slapped around, but if you want to insult my Kotton wrapper as well, have at it.

Too funny......Oh well, old age setting in. Whatever it was I said, it was mostly just an observation and not, in any way, meant to diminish one of your beautiful packs. I love collecting the packaging our cards came in. best regards

[rman444]

It is a shared sickness.

And since this thread is turning into a T216 show me your stuff, here are a couple of other interesting People's Tobacco packaging items:

[rman444]

[Leon]

Richard- that is awsome stuff.....I love it.....and I think there are a few closet package collectors amongst us also. We need to do a "packaging" thread soon.....we will have a blast....

[E93]

Richard,
Those pieces are amazing!!!
JImB

[cfc1909]

Bender216s.jpg

Bender216sb.jpg

Knabe216n.jpg

Knabe216nb.jpg

[cfc1909]

JacklitschMino.jpg

JacklitschMinob.jpg

Bemis1.jpg

Bemis1b.jpg

Baltimore players don't come on type 3 so
I don't have a type 3 kotton
maybe another member can post a scan

I have never seen a Baltimore Virginia Extra-so if you have one you can pretty much get what you want in return from me

[uffda51]

As long as we're posting People's Tobacco cards, here's one of mine.

[rman444]

See Bruce. Now that's just plain mean

Did you remember to revise your will per our discussion at the national?

[uffda51]

Mr. rman, if I may be so informal, it isn't often I have something you don't. My will has been revised per our conversation, with the caveat that my attorney may substitute something of equal or lesser value. You might wind up with 500,000 1982 Donruss commons or the Sovereign-back T206 Wagner which belonged to my grandfather . . .

[rman444]

Originally Posted by uffda51

Mr. rman, if I may be so informal, it isn't often I have something you don't. My will has been revised per our conversation, with the caveat that my attorney may substitute something of equal or lesser value. You might wind up with 500,000 1982 Donruss commons or the Sovereign-back T206 Wagner which belonged to my grandfather . . .

Bruce,

Your Sovereign T206 Wagner would display nicely next the the Drum T206 Wagner that I received from my grandfather. As for the half mil 1982 Donruss commons, if you could sort them in numerical order, I would gladly accept those as well.

[Leon]

I just received the Kotton tobacco pouch. It's sort of interesting that it says, at the top of it, "Not In the Trust"

As stated before, the type 2 Kotton cards, as can be seen, advertise tobacco, and this pouch, I believe, could have held a card. It says made by union labor on the pouch, as well as has Factory 11, Dist. of LA.....and looks to be from the time period...Here is a scan of the top of the pouch and another of the pouch too. The back of the pouch is completely blank, which is sort of unusual. It is full of tobacco but alas no card. It does look like it's been opened before. regards

[bijoem]

great pouch Leon.

And great cards and info throughout this thread!

[rman444]

Leon -

Glad it arrived safely. Can you share the details of your find?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rman444

Leon -

Glad it arrived safely. Can you share the details of your find?

Hey Richard
I wish I could claim that I found it but I didn't. Another board member won it recently in an auction. Jon Canfield knew about it too. I have bought quite a few packs from the member that won it so he knew I would have an interest in it. He asked if I would like to buy it? I had to think about it, for almost a second . Then we just had to haggle on value/price. It wasn't cheap but he gave me a pretty good deal compared to it's scarcity and what other packs go for, with similar qualities. I just didn't care to talk too much about it before, as I didn't have it in hand and didn't want to jinx myself. You know how that goes. Anywho, we can probably cross one off of the list for cards with packs/pouches associated with them. That being said this doesn't have a stamp at all but it's my understanding that some packs during this time period didn't have them. It might have to do with the Trust, but I am not sure. Maybe Jon will chime in.....and also, I know there is a chance this might not be the exact year of the card but I do think it is close, if not spot on. regards

[DixieBaseball]

Leon- Incredible find and great thread of some real toughies. Thanks for sharing ! Those New Orleans brand tobacco packs and cards are the best !

Does anyone (Richard) know how close Factory 3, 4 / 11 were to each other in New Orleans ? ( I don't recall ever seeing an address)

[Leon]

Probably my favorite T216... I have seen a few of these Cobbs, of paper thin variety, but most have been quite off condition. I think Toby and I went head to head for this one on ebay some time ago. regards.....

[jimonym]

This thread is spectacular.

NB, multiple factory numbers don't necessarily imply separate free-standing buildings or facilities. Under the internal revenue regulations, operations for the manufacture of cigarettes and the manufacture of smoking and chewing tobacco had to be kept separate, but could coexist under one roof if there was adequate physical separation. Apparently it was too difficult to track tobacco leaf usage if the two types of manufacturing were commingled -- and the tracking of leaf input and product output is what allowed the tax collectors to verify that no untaxed product was slipping out the back door. Registered factory numbers were connected to the distinct operations around the category of product (cigars/cigarettes v. loose tobacco), not the bricks and mortar structure.

I believe the People's Tobacco Co. had one facility, located at the address on Richard's letterhead. Here's a detailed Sanborn map from 1908 showing the factory property. The PTC was a pretty small-time operation: note the structure at its tallest was just 1 1/2 stories. The main factories of the Trust at this time were generally each on the order of 5 to 10 times larger, and the Trust had well over 20 in operation.

[DixieBaseball]

Jim - Very interesting, Thanks for posting the Peoples Factory Map. What I was referring to on Factory 3 and 4 were People's Tobacco & Red Sun Tobacco. I think we talked about this on another thread awhile back, but not sure anyone has confirmed where Red Sun Tobacco was located at or was it a sub-tobacco leasee within a company like People's ? I find the mystery fascinating and it would seem that the road to figuring out Red Sun, might possibly be through other area tobacco companies in the area.

Thanks again for the info you provided -

J

[jimonym]

Jeremy,

Red Sun (the T211 Red Sun) was a brand produced by the W.R. Irby Cigar & Tobacco Company of New Orleans. Factory 3 in Louisiana was connected with their operations. They were purchased by ATC in 1899. Afterwards the facility became known as the Irby Branch of the American Tobacco Company and it continued to exclusively produce the former Irby brands for distribution primarily in the South and Southwest. The Irby structures were just a few blocks from the PTC.

[FrankWakefield]

I have only one Kotton card. I've never seen a Kotton package / pouch, that's great!!! I think this thread has taken a detour, one that I find enjoyable. Great stuff. As for the original question, I'd think there are more Wagner T206s about today than there are Wagner Kotton cards. Kotton cards are about as scarce as Kotton collectors. I'd think many of the folks who have a Kotton card have only one. Someone collecting the set, he's The Man.

[uffda51]

[three25hits]