Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Yes

Agree.....Peter.

So many bad bad cards in holders with grades.

I’m not giving PWCC or the Doctors a pass by any stretch however......

My question is will PSA lose it’s credibility in the industry ??

How can any auction houses Or dealer have confidence selling/auctioning cards in PSA holders that were not submitted by themselves??

I have a feeling this years national is gonna be scary for many dealers...idk

Johnny I don't know. I think so many people may be so invested that it's going to be a case of the emperor's new clothes and people are just going to pretend nothing's wrong or if it is it's just message board chatter.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Johnny I don't know. I think so many people may be so invested that it's going to be a case of the emperor's new clothes and people are just going to pretend nothing's wrong or if it is it's just message board chatter.

I’m fearful of that as well Peter. We have both been around way to long to think otherwise....one can only hope.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Yes

Agree.....Peter.

So many bad bad cards in holders with grades.

I’m not giving PWCC or the Doctors a pass by any stretch however......

My question is will PSA lose it’s credibility in the industry ??

How can any auction houses Or dealer have confidence selling/auctioning cards in PSA holders that were not submitted by themselves??

I have a feeling this years national is gonna be scary for many dealers...idk

If PSA is paying out claims i see them raising their credibility. If you buy a raw card from someone and it turns out trimmed....good luck to you getting your money back

[Johnny630]

This one takes the cake as the absolute worst of the worst to me

Ray Charles could have seen this....

Mr. Orlando could you please explain what’s your Opinion On this One??

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

[irv]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This one takes the cake as the absolute worst of the worst to me

Ray Charles could have seen this....

Mr. Orlando could you please explain your Opinion On this One??

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

Wow!!

What a complete and utter joke PSA is!!

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

This one takes the cake as the absolute worst of the worst to me

Ray Charles could have seen this....

Mr. Orlando could you please explain what’s your Opinion On this One??

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

You need to scroll up to see it...

Superdan coined it The Impressionist "Claude Monet Ruth"

In snobbish art critic voice...
I personally think it's more of an Abstract piece, with an influence that lies somewhere between Rothko and Pollock. Amazingly, the blades of grass appear both vertical and horizontal, with mixed shades of green that imply a subtle Moser influence as well. Reminiscent of a very early Moser masterpiece, circa kindergarten or perhaps first grade.

Bravo, PSA!

[Peter_Spaeth]

57 Mantle 6 to 8
Refund pile.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4608

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

57 Mantle 6 to 8

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4608

Awful
Mr. Orlando your Opinion Givers are lousy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Awful
Mr. Orlando your Opinion Givers are lousy

Never


Get


wait for it




Cheated

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Never


Get


wait for it




Cheated

His company is FAKE NEWS OPINION GIVERS

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

His company is FAKE NEWS OPINION GIVERS

It's staggering what the average, good faith collector or even investor is up against in terms of the institutions that dominate this hobby. Good Lord. And just look at the contemptuous response from Orlando, putting down the people trying to call it all out as a handful spreading fear or whatever obnoxious words he used.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's staggering what the average, good faith collector or even investor is up against in terms of the institutions that dominate this hobby. Good Lord.

Right it’s sad they spend their hard earned money for this.....most are so naive and green they don’t even have a clue...I feel for them.....these past few months have really been brutal ever day we wake up to more garbage

The pompous arrogance from PSA really hits home.....when they should be ashamed of their opinions they boast about the.

[Peter_Spaeth]

59 Mantle 7 to 8.5
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4621

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

59 Mantle 7 to 8.5
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4621

Terrible !!!

Always get cheated

[Peter_Spaeth]

Old Judge Keefe Bat 4 to 7 5K gain

Not sure it makes the refund pile, it's "only" chemically cleaned apparently.
I mean conserved.
Long live the tenets.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4629

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Old Judge Keefe Bat 4 to 7 5K gain

Not sure it makes the refund pile, it's "only" chemically cleaned apparently.
I mean conserved.
Long live the tenets.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4629

Next we will see cards like this in Newport Beach Opinion Givers Holders disintegrate over time.....card is prob the consistency of peanut brittle

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Old Judge Keefe Bat 4 to 7 5K gain

Not sure it makes the refund pile, it's "only" chemically cleaned apparently.
I mean conserved.
Long live the tenets.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4629

Just WOW!

A $5,360 profit from a chemical bath that took a few minutes to execute.

This one is so sad, as the Keefe card had beautifully survived for 132 years, relatively unscathed. Now it has chemicals leaching throughout, within its tomb. Who knows what level of deterioration will occur within that slab over the next 132 years?

Hopefully the new owner who paid $6,600 for the card will see this, and get proper restitution.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Just WOW!

A $5,360 profit from a chemical bath that took a few minutes to execute.

This one is so sad, as the Keefe card had beautifully survived for 132 years, relatively unscathed. Now it has chemicals leaching throughout, within its tomb. Who knows what level of deterioration will occur within that slab over the next 132 years?

Hopefully the new owner who paid $6,600 for the card will see this, and get proper restitution.

The cleaned cards, I think we read the other day, are not being dealt with yet. And with due respect to Net 54 and Blowout, the odds that the owner is on the forums much less actively keeps up with this thread or the Blowout thread are relatively low.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Next we will see cards like this in Newport Beach Opinion Givers Holders disintegrate over time.....card is prob the consistency of peanut brittle

But the flip, my friend.... the flip is what counts.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The cleaned cards, I think we read the other day, are not being dealt with yet. And with due respect to Net 54 and Blowout, the odds that the owner is on the forums much less actively keeps up with this thread or the Blowout thread are relatively low.

I thought Lichtman said something about PWCC voluntarily reaching out to clients who were impacted. I know that it's a "needle in a haystack" for the new owner to be reading these forums, and to see it.

So chemical treatments don't count to them, as being returnable? Seems like a lot more than just a "cleaning", and should definitely be classified as reimbursable (along with trimmed and re-colored examples). That really stinks, if indeed true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I thought Lichtman said something about PWCC voluntarily reaching out to clients who were impacted. I know that it's a "needle in a haystack" for the new owner to be reading these forums, and to see it.

So chemical treatments don't count to them, as being returnable? Seems like a lot more than just a "cleaning", and should definitely be classified as reimbursable (along with trimmed and re-colored examples). That really stinks, if indeed true.

Jeff said
Buyers are being notified by email and phone. The first round of buyers are those who bought clearly altered cards, i.e. trimming and recoloring. The more grey stuff (cleaning, pressed corners) is being mostly put on the back burner for now except in egregious cases. This is all a fluid situation subject to my discussions with the government. It’s not a perfect situation but it’s more perfect than anything that has ever occurred previously in fraud cases in the hobby.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Next we will see cards like this in Newport Beach Opinion Givers Holders disintegrate over time.....card is prob the consistency of peanut brittle

Not all chemicals will do that. The biggest problem is that we don't know what was used and what effects it has long term.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Seaver RC
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4731

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ryan RC.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4732

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4737

[Johnny630]

Peter, I have not even looked at the T206 Yet but on the Seaver and Ryan Rookies how is PSA missing the re-coloring/glossing of these cards??? Are they even looking at these ??? Geez they're awful !!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Peter, I have not even looked at the T206 Yet but on the Seaver and Ryan Rookies how is PSA missing the re-coloring/glossing of these cards??? Are they even looking at these ??? Geez they're awful !!

The stakeholders will fix it, patience.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Just WOW!

A $5,360 profit from a chemical bath that took a few minutes to execute.

This one is so sad, as the Keefe card had beautifully survived for 132 years, relatively unscathed. Now it has chemicals leaching throughout, within its tomb. Who knows what level of deterioration will occur within that slab over the next 132 years?

Hopefully the new owner who paid $6,600 for the card will see this, and get proper restitution.

Add this card to the $5000 or more list

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

57 Mantle 6 to 8
Refund pile.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=4608

add to the $5000 or more list..


I wonder if Auction Houses that sell cards now and to the future will refund if a buyer finds out about their card was altered based on information the Auction House could of researched prior to auction..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

add to the $5000 or more list..


I wonder if Auction Houses that sell cards now and to the future will refund if a buyer finds out about their card was altered based on information the Auction House could of researched prior to auction..

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

Would Love to Find Out Who Submitted these Cards for the Doctor/Doctors..... who's invoices are these on....there are way more guys other than the one we have all be talking about...first things first...who is submitting the cards exposed as altered for whitman111???

We all seem to be targeting on PWCC and yes they're crummy.... doctors and PSA are also crummy.....Who is gonna roll who is gonna be the fall guy??

Will be interesting to see this unfold......Vintage Non Sport is the Only Thing Keeping me Going

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Tough to say, but I doubt it. They would never have the time to do the diligent and deep research necessary to uncover all of these in advance. Isn't that what PSA's supposed "guarantee" is for, anyway? They are the ones supposedly spending the time examining these, and determining the appropriate grade. They should be the ones held accountable.

The only reason PWCC is giving refunds is that they are directly responsible for the current and past deception, and are acting upon the advice of their attorney. Otherwise, I doubt there would be any restitution for those who've been defrauded.

PSA is an option for refund. However the auction houses can refund the buyer and they go after PSA for their refund.

You would think the 4 months or whatever an auction house prepares for an auction they could do a little digging on a 50k card to see if it was altered and PSA made a mistake before using that card as marketing to bring more eyeballs to their auction for example

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

PSA is an option for refund. However the auction houses can refund the buyer and they go after PSA for their refund.

You would think the 4 months or whatever an auction house prepares for an auction they could do a little digging on a 50k card to see if it was altered and PSA made a mistake before using that card as marketing to bring more eyeballs to their auction for example

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

Not accepting consignments from card doctors might help. Just sayin. I would guess more do than don't. There are a few that don't, to their credit.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not accepting consignments from card doctors might help. Just sayin. I would guess more do than don't. There are a few that don't, to their credit.

Now come to think of it, that would be a good starting point!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Now come to think of it, that would be a good starting point!

The same stakeholders who are going to fix the problem have been accepting them since day one. Many of them, that is.

[Johnny630]

How many collectors have enough restraint to no longer do business with any major AH who knowingly accepts consignment cards from known doctors along with ceasing any Newport Beach Opinion Giver Submissions until accepting responsibility /coming up with a viable solution to prevent this from continuing to happen on this large scale. . They have all be complacent in allowing this S&&T to go on this long.

Is what I’m asking for to much for these AH’s ?? AH’s mean Ass Ho$les

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

How many collectors have enough restraint to no longer do business with any major AH who knowingly accepts consignment cards from known doctors along with ceasing any Newport Beach Opinion Giver Submissions until accepting responsibility /coming up with a viable solution to prevent this from continuing to happen on this large scale. . They have all be complacent in allowing this S&&T to go on this long.

Is what I’m asking for to much for these AH’s ?? AH’s mean Ass Ho$les

Come to Chicago this week and see them lined up to give them their money.

[Scott L.]

What auction houses knowingly accept consignments from card doctors outside of PWCC? I'm happy to no longer do business with them if I knew who they were.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

How many collectors have enough restraint to no longer do business with any major AH who knowingly accepts consignment cards from known doctors along with ceasing any Newport Beach Opinion Giver Submissions until accepting responsibility /coming up with a viable solution to prevent this from continuing to happen on this large scale. . They have all be complacent in allowing this S&&T to go on this long.

Is what I’m asking for to much for these AH’s ?? AH’s mean Ass Ho$les

I have been doing that for many many years already. You can go back and search my posts. I have been calling PWCC and PSA a scam since I joined here and had been doing it way longer than that.

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Come to Chicago this week and see them lined up to give them their money.

The lemmings are many in this hobby.

[Just.Rachel]

At least one small-timer is waiting to see a resolution before sending cards to Newport Beach. I had a batch ready to go, but Orlando's statement made me weary. It's sitting in my cabinet, waiting until I'm confident the investment will be worth it.

I doubt I'm the only one.

They don't care about tiny little chumps like me though. That much is clear.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Come to Chicago this week and see them lined up to give them their money.

You’re correct I’ve been saying this for weeks......until this affects their bottom line there will be zero change.....that’s just my thinking on it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Yeah, it would be a nice gesture... and maybe some day we'll get to that point. But when you consider the sheer number of cards that appear in any of the major Catalogue Auctions, they'd never have the time/resources to deeply research them all.

If you mean for them to simply spot-check the published lists of suspected altered cards.... then yes, that would probably be doable. But if you mean for them to conduct the actual research (like the guys on BO are doing), then it will likely never happen. I suppose they could hire a staff person in charge of research, but the added cost of implementing the process would probably just result in higher Buyer and Seller Premiums.

And isn't this what the TPAs are supposed to be doing, anyway? I know the current ones are failing badly, and if anyone is liable for recourse, it should be them.

right just a spot check of published list of suspected cards would be nice..

can be a list of $5000 and up cards that could be checked...only one click etc..

[Peter_Spaeth]

I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276

[Rhotchkiss]

I do not feel it is ok to use bleaching or other chemicals and I think it should be considered an alteration. I think it’s fine to use water or natural means to get dirt and removable stains off, but these chemicals are akin to repainting or recoloring- they create a new and unnatural layer of coloring or fundamentally alter the underlying color, so as to fundamentally alter the card.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I do not feel it is ok to use bleaching or other chemicals and I think it should be considered an alteration. I think it’s fine to use water or natural means to get dirt and removable stains off, but these chemicals are akin to repainting or recoloring- they create a new and unnatural layer of coloring or fundamentally alter the underlying color, so as to fundamentally alter the card.

That's certainly been my understanding in the decades I've been collecting, but as I said, I keep hearing that's not a consensus view and that many people share PWCC's self-serving view that using peroxide or whatever they're using to clean cards is OK.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That's certainly been my understanding in the decades I've been collecting, but as I said, I keep hearing that's not a consensus view and that many people share PWCC's self-serving view that using peroxide or whatever they're using to clean cards is OK.

Push TGP’s Industry standards to change to avoid any liability or litigation.......what a bunch of cons....nothing they do or try to do shocks me anymore.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I haven't kept this thread current figuring people can follow Blowout if they care, but this one seemed worth posting. Someone please tell me this sort of "cleaning" is OK because I keep hearing there is no consensus.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=5276

That particular card is a tough call. If , and that's a big if, the stains are from the caramel on the crackerjacks, it's possible that water would be enough.
But I really think that staining is something else. Mostly because of the card shaped clean area on the back. The stains that didn't come out might be, which would lead me to think the de-staining material was a oil based solvent like mineral spirits.

If it's from having been in a really acidic scrapbook, or envelope, it's possible that the deacidification products the pros (Like museums, not Moser?) use would whiten as they deacidify. If that's the case, then it's probably ok, but should still be disclosed, as that much acidity has already damaged the paper.

If it's just bleached in a barely above amateur hour attempt at making it look better.... nope, not a good thing.

[Peter_Spaeth]

In my opinion there is no way that card got so much whiter (look at the front) from water.

[steve B]

Yes, most probably not water.

I did a bit of looking up on how deacidification is done, and I have become convinced it's been bleached.

I still feel a bit mixed about that. If it's done right, as in the way professionals do it with art, I think it won't do damage. The biggest problem is that there's no disclosure, especially of the method. And without that, here's no way to get a feel for the actual skill of who did it.