PWCC's 1936 Goudey World Wide Gum DiMaggio PSA 7

[orly57]

Originally Posted by Leon

Disagree all you want to. It is a chat board. The reality is that if a grader can't see a fault they aren't going to discount the grade for it. No matter how much you disagree it won't change that fact.

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

And if you look and still can't see it you, you still can't take off for it.
I might even go as far as to say even IF they did see the before picture, it is STILL graded correctly today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

And I will go further to say that if he is aware that the card was restored/altered to make a significant difference in its appearance and grade, he is withholding a material fact.

[ullmandds]

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

[orly57]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

This

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

Someone can't give an honest opinion now without being accused of being on a payroll? Are you in the media LOL...?

[orly57]

I don't think he meant you Leon. If he did, I withdraw my approval of that portion of the post.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by orly57

I don't think he meant you Leon. If he did, I withdraw my approval of the post.

I think it is great to share differing opinions.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Here we go again... nothing at all new here... card has been embellished...it is obvious to anyone with decent vision let alone the foremost grading company in the world. The card is over graded it has obvious remnants of what used to be there it is not a seven and should not be a seven. And it seems some people are now on PSA's payroll!!

++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?

[HRBAKER]

And who said SGC cards wouldn't cross to PSA?

[irv]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

++This. I guess I see this as black and white. It's altered, period. don't care if it's chemicals or water. But this is not my world of buying, so can't proclaim to know how it affects the market.

I don't see how this can be good for the hobby. It has all the appearances of fraud and deception. Heck, even PSA can't figure it out.

If someone was doing this to the cards I buy (early 70's PSA 9's), I would be disgusted.

BTW, PSA pooffed the thread over there. Someone posted a really nice pair of photos showing both cards side by side. Can someone do that here within the thread?

[Beastmode]

Thanks

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My guess is that this card has had significant chemical intervention, in which case it is not a "small small" matter as Brent suggests. I hope I am wrong.

I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have no idea, but to just throw out "significant chemical intervention" is a bit reckless in my view. Heck, who knows, maybe distilled water did it.

Water is still a chemical

[Leon]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Water is still a chemical

Ok, got me there. But most collectors as you well know, in polls done on this board, have not had the same disdain for water as they have for anything else. And I agree with that sentiment.

[Peter_Spaeth]

According to someone whose opinion I respect highly, the distilled water thing is wishful thinking.

"Your post about the card is essentially correct. It has undoubtedly been submerged in a caustic chemical such as bleach in order to remove the toning and obscure the lighter, untoned areas on the front and back. The type of chemical that has been added has altered the chemical composition of the card and will likely cause the fibers in the cardboard to degrade over time."

This person also believes improvement was made to the corners, based on his close examination of the respective scans.

[Neal]

.

[orly57]

I would suspect that they would have to tag it as "altered" if they saw the transformation no? And a 7 with that centering is a stretch in my opinion. I just don't think that I or any of us get a 7 on that card if we sent it in. And why no qualifier on the stain? In this case, the whole card is stained except for the two light areas.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

++

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by orly57

You can't see what you don't look for. That is the problem.

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

[BeanTown]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Orlando, too true, and perhaps typifies the eternal conflict between buyer and seller, particularly for an amazing card like the WWG JD RC. Where I get lost in the process is what differentiates what is thought of as harmless touch-ups and what becomes, gulp, restoration. I kinda always believed that if the cardboard remained undisturbed, no trimming, no corner restoration etc., then it was ok to sell as long as it was disclosed the card had been superficially improved. Of course, grading impacts all of that. Who knows?

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

If PWCC had prior knowledge that the card had been improved upon when consigned, then absolutely they should have disclosed such fact in their description. Good call.

[aloondilana]

As mentioned earlier. I, as the buyer had no idea about this cards past. I purchased a PSA 7 and that's what the card is.
Cards get crossed all the time are all sellers supposed to disclose the former grade and or grading company that graded it?
eBay would be overloaded with disclosures if that we're the case.
Now I do understand the grade has jumped from a 4-7 but the principle is the same.
The bottom line here is regardless of its past it is now in a PSA 7 holder.
Last I checked PSA is also the premier grading company.
Furthermore, unlike all of you, I have experience purchasing this card, should I go cry to goldin about this?
In fact, even if goldin disclosed this issue, I still would have made my purchase.
What I got is what I purchased. Psa 7.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Do, you think that PWCC should update their auction of this new information about the card? It seems common practice that other reputable auction houses do this as they learn of things that could affect the sale both good and bad.

Really? First, which auction houses are reputable? let's start there.

[Yoda]

In a post Mastro world, every auction house should act in an integral manner (not saying they all do) and inform any and all information about cards consigned if they have all the facts disclosed beforehand I am not going to attempt to piggyback on this thread to start on the pros and cons of the various houses except to say I have my favorite, where I do some pretty serious consigning, and that is FTLG. They are pros. No BS. Let's just get the best we can in an ethical manner and make you some money.

[Beastmode]

Seems to be some messenger killing in this thread. OP made an observation, now there's a great discussion. The only whining I see is the folks that want to sweep this under the rug.

Seller of card already admitted he's a flipper, so I'm sure he knows the risk of buying and selling these types of cards. Comes with that territory, and one of the reasons I don't buy pre-war cards. I don't know enough about them nor what is or isn't acceptable as an alteration.

It's clear to me with the lack of review by PSA, it's buyer beware for these cards.

The current auction is almost break even for seller. He's smart enough to list with the best auction house in the business. And he's benefiting from the a-hole 3rd underbidder with 10 retractions who is string bidding.