Roger Clemens Vs Barry Bonds???

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Posted By: Brad

Barry Bonds: has been getting a bum rap' since all the allegations about steroids.

- should his Home Run record count?

- Lying about Drugs (steroids) Faces Charges? (out to get him!)

- Should Bonds be in the Hall of Fame?

- Big problem with the media (before and after drug allegations)

- public hatred!!! Poster child' for baseballs drug use.



Roger Clemens: I'd like to here your thoughts

- should his Pitching record count?

- Should Clemens be in the Hall of Fame? (Let's face it his Not Honest!)

- Huge problem with the media!

- American Hero!

If Bonds & Clemens make it into the HOF (I believe they will), do you think Pete Rose would have a good chance of being inducted?

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Posted By: James Gallo

Barry Bonds: has been getting a bum rap' since all the allegations about steroids.

- should his Home Run record count?

Hell No

- Lying about Drugs (steroids) Faces Charges? (out to get him!)

No I think it will be proven he has lied.

- Should Bonds be in the Hall of Fame?

No

- Big problem with the media (before and after drug allegations)

Didn't help and i think it made things a lot worse. Public opinion counts for a lot and outside SF there are not a lot of people that like Bonds.

- public hatred!!! Poster child' for baseballs drug use.

See above.



Roger Clemens: I'd like to here your thoughts

- should his Pitching record count?

If he is proven guilty in a court room no they shouldn't just like Bonds.

- Should Clemens be in the Hall of Fame? (Let's face it his Not Honest!)

No and see above.

- Huge problem with the media!

He has been liked by the Media and this will help him some, but public opinion has already changed a great deal.

- American Hero!

Never really thought of him like that as i have felt he juiced for some time now.

If Bonds & Clemens make it into the HOF (I believe they will), do you think Pete Rose would have a good chance of being inducted?

No totally different things, however if the flood gates opened and Bonds and Clemens get in, then what about Sosa and big Mack.... Should they all be allowed in?

I think in the context of the period the Black Sox players have a better shot the Rose.

Rose is screwed, because he did a HUGE baseball no-no when it wasn't known to be bad. However I think rose should be in for his actions as a player.

Basically it will have to come down to three things.

Let them all in.

Keep them all out.

Let them in but put a note on the records.

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Rob

I believe (as many others do too) that the Mitchell Report is just a small subset of players that did steroids/drugs. The tip of the iceberg so to speak. If you ban the stats/records of all the guys that did PEDs, there won't be many stats left.

They'll get into the Hall. Their stats will count.

If Barry gets jail time for lying to the court, shouldn't Palmiero?

I think the gov't should have better things to spend their time on than whether or not someone took steroids. Leave it to MLB to do their own testing/investigating. From here on out, if a player is caught cheating, kick them out of the game. Plain and simple.

Pete Rose (as much as I don't like him, dunno why) should be in the Hall cuz of his baseball numbers.

And the reason people don't like Bonds is cuz of his attitude/arrogance/etc. We'll look back in 20 years and say "wow that was a great ballplayer", like people did to Muhammad Ali (hated him then, but love him now).

Rob

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Posted By: Steve

I agree, the gov should take a pass on this issue, so long as the Commision grows some backbone.

They stole the glory from the honest with comparitively marginal stats. Let 'em open up a liquor store or work in a dry cleaners and write their numerous Requests' for Reinstatement while eating their humble pie.

I believe, as sincere vintage fans (and collectors), our opinions will affect those less knowledgable. I've already convinced several skeptics, on the job, just by simply explaining "the scandal of 1919".

It is our role to support the selfless team-players by condemning (sp) today's riffraff. Something needs to be said for the innocent players. Can you imagine, "Grampa, I'd really rather look at Barry's and the Rocket's shrine, George Ruth and that Henry Gehring were just okay."

A true fan doesn't want this crud mucking up the Halls, regardless of their untouchable numbers. My PO opinion. Regahds, Steve

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Posted By: fkw

1975-2000 will be known as the Steroid Era.

Many more players not on that list did HGH and Steroids too. A fairly high % of the players experimented with them in college and the minors in the 1980-2000 era

Need to accept it and Live with it.

Every MLB player has a home weightroom and eats better now days as well. Thats the main reason the power numbers are up now. Do you think DiMaggio, Williams, or Mantle ever lifted weights or drank protein shakes, no. If they did Im sure they would have hit 700+ dingers too ....... actually give Williams a weightroom and add the years he missed in War, he would have hit 900

Steroids didnt make the modern player better. It helped them heal faster and recover from workouts faster. They were good players their whole lives. The list is a cross section of the entire league. Many small players on list and many huge players not on the list.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

Pete Rose never did anything wrong as a player (so far as we know) but only as a manager did he gamble on the game. Shoeless Joe had a hall of fame type of career before the 1919 WS as well. Neither is in the HOF. What Clemens and Bonds did was just as bad to me - neither should be in the hall or the record books but I'm sure I'll be out voted on that one.

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Posted By: Brad

fkw,

"Steroids didnt make the modern player better. It helped them heal faster and recover from workouts faster. They were good players their whole lives."

What about making the player Run, Hit and Pitch faster/harder?

Drugs for healing purposes: is only one of the side affect when using steroids. We all know this types of drugs are used for performance enhancement purposes.

"They were good players their whole lives."
I don't think you could find anyone who would disagree with that statement!

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Posted By: James Gallo

FKW

Are you kidding me with this statement.

Steroids didn't make the modern player better. It helped them heal faster and recover from workouts faster. They were good players their whole lives. The list is a cross section of the entire league. Many small players on list and many huge players not on the list.

Sure the guys like Bonds and Clemens were good players, but Brady Anderson never deserved to hit 50 HR. Your going to tell me he was a good player and the Roids didn't help those numbers.

I will bet every card I own that there are a tons of players that were able to play longer and "better" because of the roids and as such it prevented other young guys to come up which in turn hurt them in the long run.

Sure we will have a time of the Steriod era but I don't think it should go back to 1975. IMO the mid 1990s is when it got bad and impacted the game.

As for the government not having better things to do, guess what I would rather see them do something about this now then 10 years from now. It is important to the youth of the country to not see players they look up to take this crap.

As such it is important and needs to be policed to some degree or at least a strict policy need to be applied and enforced.


James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Fred C

It's not like we can pretend that the HRs were never hit or the pitches never thrown. You can't "take it back". That list is fairly short and it probably only contains a handful of players rather than what the "whole list" should include.

I'm not a Bonds fan but I still realize that he'd have hit well over 500 dingers without PEDs. I'm not sure if the HOF would be complete without him. This isn't an isolated incident of ONE player being guilty of using PEDs. As indicated earlier in the thread this is an ERA of baseball that has seen PED usage.

Do they plan on taking away Ken Caminiti's MVP award and giving it to someone else? How about Roger's Cy Young awards?

It was an exciting era in baseball, now (hopefully) it will come to a close and we can get back to the game rather than the sideshow it has become. Yes, there are players that will benefit the rest of their careers from the PEDs they took earlier but that's just the way it's going to be. Why ponder over who is going to make it to the HOF or not? Again, there's probably a few players who took PEDs and they are not mentioned in the report and they may not be as obvious as Bonds. The exclusion of some PED users and not all (from the HOF) wouldn't be right.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Fred, I disagree with everything you said in your post. Baseball can't allow the players to keep the awards, homers, strikeouts that were gained through the use of PEDs. Those who did should never be allowed in the Hall of Fame. How about the money stolen, from the fans and the players who were forced out of jobs in MLB? No, they probably can't nab everyone, but baseball must deal with those who are guilty. Why? To show the kids that it's not right to be allowed to keep what you steal, and that PEDs kill. The youngsters must understand that these guys are not heroes who deserve to be included in the Hall with all those who went before who excelled without PEDs. Also, a warning must be sent to the players that this will not be tolerated. What I think might happen is a quid pro quo between the player's union and the commisioner: no punishment for those caught in exchange for a strong testing program that will give us a clean game played by humans not under the influence of human growth hormone. Otherwise, congress might step in, in an effort to clean up the game that has meant so much to America. Baseball is not the WWF.

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Posted By: Jim Dale

I couldn't agree more, but what is sad is that we live in a society where personal responsiblity is headed out the window....soon the argument will be that society made them do it...the fans wanted it...the owners paid for it...yada yada yada....no one made them do what was wrong and they chose to do it. I hope they are never included - at least not until after their lives have past. I've said the same thing about Rose - put him in the hall after he's dead. Not until then.

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Posted By: Brett

Bonds, Clemens and every other steroid user should be banned from baseball and their records should NOT count. The problem is that most of the "good" players probably used them. I'm betting A-Rod and Pujols used them or is still using them too...

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Posted By: Brad

It's interesting the new allegations "MITCHELL STEROIDS REPORT" came out right after President Bush's rant about Iran. I believe the overwhelming media coverage is a diversion from the real issues.

War/Politics: President Bush's WWW3 statements regarding Iran. Why don't we here anything about this anymore??? U.S. elections and baseball "steroids" are the #1 story's in the NEWS. Hmmmm....Makes you think!

thank GOD we live in a so called democracy!

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Posted By: Fred C

John,

I understand you point of view but how do you determine who used PEDs and who didn't? Is it right to only strip the awards of players that are accused of using PEDs? There will be those that used PEDs that wont admit it and they will get away with it (and keep their awards). Now that's a pretty poor message to send out. You must acquit if they don't admit.

Do I think the players were right for using PEDs? No, it's kind of disappointing to see great names like Aaron and Ruth removed from the record books. It's sad to see that awards were given to PED users but what are you going to do, go back and give the MVPs and Cy Young awards to the second place winners (who could have been PED users themselves)? I kind of doubt that any of those players would accept the awards. Lets push it further, should the players that are given the awards "after the fact" be given any incentive bonuses that was in their contracts... ok, that's just being stupid, my bad.

My last point is what do you do with the career records of these players? Bonds won a few MVPs before he began his use of HGH. What year do the records count and not count? It'd be impossible to figure it all out.

The bottom line is that nothings going to change what's happened. It's a done deal and MLB should now work on not allowing it to happen again.

I'm just curious, what would you do? I'm not going to come back with a reply that says your ideas and thoughts are stupid because that wouldn't be right. Rather, I'd like to read what you think should be done with the records and awards owned by the PED users and what should we do about players (not in the Mitchell report) that are accused of PED use.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Fred, this is an ongoing investigation that will be based on evidence emerging. The cops don't let a crook go because there are others out there running around. Two wrongs don't make a right. The commissioner is not omniscient. I still think that the commissioner will push for strict tests in exchange for no punishments handed out. If the union is still unbending, congress will come in and they will clean up baseball. It must be stressed that because of the dangers of these drugs, the union is actually hurting the players they claim to be helping. Also, kids will understand that some players will avoid detection, but the message given out to future players if nothing is done is that they too should take PEDs because you get to keep the money, the homers, and the awards.

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Posted By: Fred C

Well we agree on one thing for sure: PEDs should be removed from baseball and any player caught using them in the future needs to be treated sternly.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Fred, in order to get PEDs out Mr. Selig is now going to have to use the upper hand he now has. If the union drags its heals, the fur will fly and the union will loose.

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Posted By: Rob

right, so we'll take away all of Roger Clemens' strikeouts, and for all those batters that struck out against him we'll take away those strikeouts so the ABs never happened, which'll raise their batting averages. And all of Bond's HRs, we'll take those away and go back into history and make those outs instead, so the pitchers never threw the HR balls. And we'll do this for all the players on the Mitchell Report, right?

And since Whitey Ford and Don Sutton and Gaylord Perry (just to name a few) all cheated to enhance their careers, we'll take all of their stats away too!!!! And don't forget - Sosa with the corked bat, and Kenny Rogers with the "clump of dirt".

Look, all this talk of banning these players is just dumb. Just because a player's name is on a receipt from 5 years ago for a drug that wasn't illegal at the time, we don't ban him. If the guy tests positive for a drug test, THEN you ban him. Obviously MLB and the Players Association (union, whatever) doesn't care about it very much, otherwise they'd have MANDATORY testing. They can only blame themselves, as only they can police themselves. They chose to look the other way, so you can't penalize them as an afterthought.

Rob

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Rob, you can just zero out Bonds and Clemens: just hit the delete button; you don't have to do all that other quantum mechanics-like balancing. That arguement is reduction ad absurdum.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

Should read reductio ad absurdum. Sorry.