Should PSA do half grades?

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Posted By: JimB

I have wondered for a while why PSA does not do half grades like SGC and GAI? It would make sense for them to do it in my opinion for a lot of reasons. Any thoughts?

P.S. This is not intended to be an open invitation to bash PSA. That has been done quite thoroughly.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I just don't see how they could start doing that now when they have already slabbed 8 MILLION cards without half grades.

Certainly of those 8 million... at least 5.3 million of them would have been either a half grade lower or a half grade higher.

The odd are pretty slim that a card currently in a PSA 8 holder would be an EXACT 8.

It could have been anywhere from a 7.51 to an 8.49

Presumably any cards from 7.26 to 7.74 would be in 7.5 holders...

while only cards from 7.75 to 8.24 would be in 8 holders.

-----------------------

In other words... if I am doing the math right...

only one third of the currently slabbed cards would be in accurate holders is they added a 7.5 and an 8.5 grade to sandwich the 8.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

It's up to PSA to do whatever they want.

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Posted By: rob

It was my understanding there, would be no math...

anybody with me on that one?

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Posted By: JimB

I thought that anything in 8 holder was in the 8.00 to 8.99 range and thus it would not be a matter of downgrading anything, but simply a possibility of a half grade bump. If somebody thought their card was on the high end of the grade they could submit it for re-evaluation. For example, if I thought my card was a high-end 8, I could submit it for consideration as a potential 8.5. This could be less expensive than the ordinary service since they would not have to bother with authenticating, but only examing the technical grade.
JimB

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I do not feel that there is sufficient advantage in subdividing a vague evaluation criteria description into half grades. I believe that a better approach would be to clearly define a 100 point grading scale to adequately define differences in card condition, bring into focus all factors relevant to card condition and reprioritize the factors which result in card grades.

Some think that this eventuality should be postponed. Others believe as I do, that the sooner that we have established a reasonable guideline, the greater is the resultant strength of the hobby; due to the improvement in credibility generated by the documentation of standardized guideline.

I do not think that a third party grading company should be charged with the responsibility for the drafting of this evaluation criteria. I believe that this effort can and should be originated by hobbiests.

I recognize that a change this substantial will require the regrading of most cards currently slabbed. However, if the guideline is drafted properly far less uncertainty will exist regarding which grade a card falls in.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Which card company tried to do that?

One of them long ago was grading each card with scales of:

1-10 on centering

1-10 on corners

1-10 on finish/condition

1-10 on the back of the card

Then I guess you would take an average of those to get the EXACT grade of your card??

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Your math is not right, but you have clearly identified the problem with this change should PSA undertake it. Stastically half of the cards should be in the wrong holders since they would be doubling the number of grades for the same number of cards; however with the further refinement they would probably actually get a higher percentage into the wrong holder as the degree of theoritical accuracy increases they would have a smaller grading target to shoot at.

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Posted By: PASJD

and Hal is wrong on this one. A super high end 7 does not get "rounded up" to an 8 under the current system. Still, I do not like half grades, if for no other reason than that it would completely mess up all the millions of cards already out there in whole number slabs.

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Posted By: T206Collector

math sucks.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

PSA has a hard enough time getting the grades straight as it is. The half grades wouldn't really do much except give us more fodder for bashing them on this bull board. I couldn't imagine a 1.5 designation because if it's that bad, it's just that bad! They have a hard enough time just keeping the regular grades straight. Could you imagine the confusion this would cause amongst the graders? I'm sure it's tough enough for them to count from 1 - 10, let alone having them figure out half grades.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Actually, PSA already does half grades.


Their grading scale is even numbers 2 through 10.

The odd numbers are the half grades.

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Posted By: PASJD

Hal -- huh?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Think about it:

It's like Spinal Tap saying that theirs is louder just because it goes to 11.

It's all relative.



In other words, why couldn't PSA divide their current grades by 2...

and then they would have half grades.

Current 2's would be 1's... current 10's would be 5's...

and current 9's would be 4.5's

but nothing would really be any different.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

And what if PSA went to half grades....

but then people started calling for them to go to 1/10 grades on the DECIMAL system...

which would be even MORE accurate.

It would never end.

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Posted By: PASJD

Hal, unless I am missing your point, I don't think that's right. Half grades would mean that instead of 10 possible grades, there would be 19. So it isn't the same thing at all. EDITED TO ADD I don't think under any proposed system there would be a 0.5.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Hal,

That was GREAT!!! I like the even/odd comment on the half grades. Funny thing, I was going to mention the same Spinal Tap analogy of "11" on the volume knob and how things are relative.

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Posted By: will watson

i agree with your points. if PSA was starting out anew right now, i would say go with the half grade system. but they've already graded 8 million+ cards. what would the effects of switching to a half grade system be if they did it right now? would 8 million cards be seen as potentially misgraded?

i remember when they switched to the newer style (square red bordered slips) holders, and the newly graded cards were seen as being graded tougher. some collectors would only purchase new slips, because they saw the old ones as being leniently graded. imagine the uproar if they switched grading systems, and 8 million cards were now seen as potentially misgraded

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I actually liked their idea - they gave a "report card" explaining the grade along with the holdered card. I think they started slabbing some fakes and several trimmed cards - that was the end of those folks!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Report Card:

Corners: 10
Gloss: 10
Edges: 10
Centering: 10
Authenticity: 0

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Posted By: jay behrens

I think the name of the company was ProTech. They also provided a CD and a 100x blow up of the corners of the cards. Even the sharpest corners looked managed that close up. They had the right idea, just not great very good knowledge as they came to light on this board for grading an aboviously fake t206 Cobb.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: JimB

I personally wish they would do half grades. It would put the three major companies all on the same scale.
JimB

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Posted By: Donald Johnson

If I were a marketing director at PSA, I'd jump at this chance. Do you know the opportunity cost of potentially regrading 8 million cards? Just think what this would do for diehard set registry folks!

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Posted By: PASJD

If I were marketing director the last thing I would want to do would be to piss off the owners of those 8 million cards.

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Posted By: Glenn

Agreed. It would be a bad move for PSA at this point. I don't have an opinion on what the optimal number of grades is, but I do think 10 is just about right and probably more reasonable than 19 (or any greater number).

And I have decided not to allow my children to attend the University of Florida.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I do not think that the grading standards currently existing are functional. For example, PSA's description of surface wear for different grades includes the following terms:

Slight
Visible
More visible
Noticeable
Some

How is a person supposed to distinguish between these descriptors? Bear in mind that the difference in these terms is their equivalent to five grades!

I contend that we deserve better. And I am surprised that the board's consensus appears to be to maintain the status quo.

But they always say "when everyone disagrees with you, its time to reevaluate your position". So, Im rereevaluating.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Glenn!

Where else could they learn the intracacies of "Spinal Tap" and it's profound effect on the history of baseball card grading?



By the way, I STAND BEHIND my math.

Who says they can't have a grade of 0.5 ??

I have seen hundreds of cards that deserved the grade of 0.5

If they start the grades with 0.5 and 1.0 ...

and they end with 9.5 and 10.0 ...

then there WOULD be 20 available grades and not 19.

Like I said ... no different than dividing their current grades by 2.

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Posted By: rob

since no one really seemed to get my "there would be no math" line...it was a Chevy Chase skit on SNL when he was running for president and is grilled with the "if a train leaves chicago at 95 mph..." question.to answer the original question, I also think it is probably too late for PSA to turn to half grades.

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Posted By: Glenn

Hal(factorial)

I agree there should be a 0.5 for a company that uses half grades. I've certainly owned a few cards that would deserve it. It was that business in your first post I couldn't stomach. Anyway, I'd probably have more friends if I stopped correcting everyone's math and grammar for a few days. [Here's where I should add a smiley face, but I promised myself I'd never use one.]

"They were still booing him when we came on stage."

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

No slabbers should do half-grades - it just gives incentives to "jump a 1/2 grade" by changing slabbers, which means more incentive for slight doctoring or grading company favoritism.

The grading favoritism and "jumps" are more difficult for full integer grades, but occur nonethesess (recent PSA2 Wagner we discussed), so think of the bitching we would be doing if PSA had 1/2 grades.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Rob:

I did get your Chevy Chase reference and was laughing...

but Barry and I got in trouble a month ago for making SNL jokes...

so we are hesitant to pile on.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

I for one would be unbelievably ticked off to see PSA go to half grades.

I would feel compelled to resubmit all my 8s to try to get 8.5s.

My experience is that other owners of significant numbers of PSA cards feel the same way.

Given my feelings about grading quality, I would likely use this as an excuse to switch my collection to GAI or SGC.

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Posted By: Wp

Dav
The corporate setup at PSA will eventually force them to half grades. The short tem revenue boost would be tremendous. The fact that they would water down their product even more is of little concern to them.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Of course they will alienate most of their original collector customers but I agree with you that the short term revenue boost will be too tempting to pass up.

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Posted By: PASJD

I don't think PSA will go to half grades, the discussion has been around forever, they haven't yet, and for the reasons Jim points out they would risk alienating too many customers and creating utter confusion. Just my opinion. PETER

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Posted By: WP

They do not care about alientaing collectors. Just as Jim Crandell. One of their most loyal collectors.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Perversely, PSA seems to take particular delight in alienating its long-term loyal customers.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Come on now. Certainly cards are more fragile than coins, and deserve a finer definitition than saomething that wears slowly.

Really friends, Coins have a 70 point grading system.

Recognize the eventuality: baseball cards will have a one hundred point grading system sooner or later.

Choose.

Let us define the criteria before it is done for us.

Anyone ready to help me in this?

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Posted By: dan mckee

How about no grades at all.