Need help with old tintype- for Angela

[Leon]

I got an email from a nice young lady who Rob L sent our way. She has this tintype and would appreciate any information about it. Thanks in advance for any and all help. best regards

[ullmandds]

wow...that's incredible...that's all I know!

[slidekellyslide]

Can't help with the team or anything like that, but just wanted to comment and say that is a very nice tintype. Not sure if I've ever seen an integrated team tintype before.

[brianp-beme]

Cool...would the catcher's mask held by the black player help narrow down the time frame?

Brian

[barrysloate]

It appears to be 1880's and it is unlikely we will be able to determine the team. There does appear to be a black player and that of course makes it very desirable. The uniforms are nice and equipment is showing, another plus. Is it possible to get the size of it? The larger the plate, the more valuable it is. Overall, it's a much better than average baseball image.

[barrysloate]

Another interesting aspect of this image is that almost every player is wearing a different uniform. Not sure what to make of that.

[4815162342]

19th century All-Stars!

[barrysloate]

A little too ragtag for an all star team. Maybe a uniform expert could help with this.

[Anthony S.]

I bet the dude second from the left in the second row wishes he had shoulders.

[Leon]

Thanks for the responses so far. First of all, the guy in the middle row that is squatting down with the big tie on looks to have a very awkwardly shaped body. Very thin. It almost looks like that could be one of those different-head-on-body type of photos, however maybe it's not able to be done with a tintype? Thoughts?

At any rate, with all of the attributes seen, and the seller has told me the size is 2 3/8 X 3 1/4, what do ya'll think a value would be?
Based on what I know and what I have seen sold, I would guess 750-1100..but I admit I am not an expert on them..any thoughts?

[barrysloate]

Leon- before I saw your estimate I was going to suggest $1000+, so we are in the same ballpark. And it is a sixth-plate tintype, the most commonly found size.

[slidekellyslide]

Barry, have you ever seen an integrated team tintype before?

[barrysloate]

Dan- come to think of it, maybe not. There is a chance that tintype could go higher because of it. Plus he's holding a catcher's mask. That image has a lot of character.

[B O'Brien]

Not my area of knowledge, but that is awesome. Those guys look like a bunch of straight players! Very vivid.
Nice stuff,
Bob

[steve B]

Could it be a team with Fleet and Welday Walker? Fleet was a catcher, and Welday played with him very briefly for Toledo in 1884. The players may fit, but the "R" on the uniform doesn't.

Steve B

[Leon]

Originally Posted by steve B

Could it be a team with Fleet and Welday Walker? Fleet was a catcher, and Welday played with him very briefly for Toledo in 1884. The players may fit, but the "R" on the uniform doesn't.

Steve B

I am not an expert on Fleet, and I don't mean this in any kind of bigoted way, but from what I think I have seen, Fleet didn't have that kind of "afro" hair style? And of course he could have changed it but still it seems there won't be a consensus, from the board, on who the team/players is/are, or what the event is? Thanks to all who chimed in. More thoughts are welcomed. (For the record the owner is keeping it for now, according to the email I received). thanks again.

[barrysloate]

I strongly suspect this is an amateur team.

[uffda51]

Well, one of the players is obviously Joe DiMaggio . . .

[steve B]

I'm hardly an expert either. I happened to read a little about them last night so they were fresh in my mind when I saw the pic. Amateur team makes sense, especially with the mix of uniforms

steve B

[ctownboy]

I am not even CLOSE to being an expert but from the looks of these guys, could it be a college or fraternity team of some sort? Maybe an amateur team from an upper class area of the country?

Why I say this is because, from most of the tin types of groups of ball players I have seen from back then, most of the guys are rough and scruffy. But these guys look well coifed and clothed. For the most part, their hair is neat and styled, a few are wearing neckerchiefs and their boots look like riding boots and not just work boots.

Of course, I might be totally wrong (definitely NOT the first that has happened).

David

Oops, upon closer inspection, it looks like they are NOT wearing boots but nice dress shoes from that time period.

[packs]

I'm wondering if these guys are even really baseball players. It looks like the picture was taken in a studio and since all the uniforms are different, or at least most of them, and that the equipment looks fairly pristine from what you can see, it's possible that this is just a group of guys who put on all the baseball gear the photographer had. None of their uniforms, which are white, are even slightly dirty.

Just my opinion. If Einstein can't figure it out what hope do I have.

[slidekellyslide]

This is definitely a real baseball team and not just some guys who dressed up for a studio photo....It was not unusual for a town team to have guys wearing different uniforms...relatively speaking clothes were expensive in the 1870s-80s and purchasing a uniform that was only good for playing baseball was not practical for some. The very well dressed fella with the bib uniform probably did double duty with a team that was better funded or perhaps he played college ball too?

[packs]

It could very well be a town team. I'm just skeptical because all the men seem to be so well manicured like another poster pointed out. Some of the men are wearing uniforms and others just clothes. If it was an issue with expense, if you think about it, wearing your clothes to play baseball would be a risk. And these are nice clothes, not rags to play ball in. Maybe they are some sort of all star team, but I would think that it would be even more unsual for an African American player to be chosen for an all star team than just a town team. But hey, who knows.

[slidekellyslide]

They were going to the studio to get their picture taken...I'm guessing in 1880 just like today if you're going to get your picture taken you wear clean clothes and take a bath.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

They were going to the studio to get their picture taken...I'm guessing in 1880 just like today if you're going to get your picture taken you wear clean clothes and take a bath.

Uh oh. Now I know why the folks at the Sears portrait studio always give us weird looks.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Uh oh. Now I know why the folks at the Sears portrait studio always give us weird looks.

You could afford Sears??? We had ours taken at K-mart. Took a lot of work to fit 6 people in one of those little booths, but we managed somehow.

[barrysloate]

It's definitely a town team of some kind, and the different uniforms do nothing to dispel it. Dan made a good point that it would have been expensive for a team to buy nine uniforms, so players would be expected to show up to games wearing casual attire. And to take a bath.

[packs]

I wish they still had town teams. All there is around here is softball and its not the same.

[prewarsports]

I had an integrated tintype about 5-7 years ago that looked very similar to this one, but not exact, so it is not unique but rare of course. I would think it is a $500-$1000 item but you never know.

Rhys

[yoyot1]

The different uniforms might not mean anything - Spalding convinced the National League that all positions should have different uniforms in 1882. It didn't last for the whole season though...

[19cbb]

Tintype studio setting reminds me of this one in my collection

[Leon]

I told Angela I would bump her post to the top for her one last time. She seems to feel that it is imperative to find out the African American's name and more about the team. I told her it seemed like she didn't really believe what the board had said and wished her luck in the quest. I think I know where a Wags is with blue eyes . Personally, even if we found out the name, or names, of the players if there isn't anyone of distinction I don't think it will help the value a lot. regards

[barrysloate]

Angela- if you are reading this, please understand that your chance of finding the black player's name is very remote, and closer to impossible. In fact, there are only a very few known baseball tintypes where we have been able to identify the player. That's just the way it is. And I've been looking at and studying these for over twenty years.

[slidekellyslide]

Well, where did Angela find this tintype? Is it passed down through her family? Did she pick it up at a sale? Antique store? The odds of figuring out who any of these guys are is remote, but it'd be nice if she'd let us know if it has any provenance.

[forazzurri2axz]

seems to me to be wearing a shirt with the design of home plate?? and perhaps the initial of the city(R??) inside, even though the "R" seems to be backwards..

[Leon]

The owner has said :

"I bought it at a photo show from a New York dealer"

so that is all of the info she has....thanks again

[slidekellyslide]

The only thing anyone here can do is make an educated guess. She should contact Wes Cowan...something like this would make a great episode of History Detectives.

[barrysloate]

Without provenance, and without any information at all about the team, I would say the chance of identifying any of the players is about zero. It's still a great image, and tintypes are collected for one main reason- because they are great photographs of baseball in 19th century America. But strong teams rarely ever took tintype photos, and almost none of them are identifiable.

[ramram]

This image has been out there before. I remember seeing it at auction or ebay, or someplace about 8 - 10 years ago. As I recall, the previous owner was hinting or hoping that the black player was Walker.

Rob M.

[E93]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Another interesting aspect of this image is that almost every player is wearing a different uniform. Not sure what to make of that.

Doesn't that indicate that is pre-dates a specific year? I remember hearing once that up until some year (188?) players wore different uniforms for different positions. I have a similar anonymous cabinet with players all wearing different uniforms.
JimB

Edited to add: Just read through all the posts and saw that someone already stated that in 1882 Spalding convinced players to wear different uniforms for different positions.

[barrysloate]

Jim- yes, there is an 1882(?) cabinet of Chicago that shows each player wearing a unique uniform. If I remember correctly Al Spalding was trying an experiment of some kind, which apparently was not successful. How that translated to a town team I don't know.

[bmarlowe1]

1882 is correct. This was done throughout the NL, I believe. In any case, it did not last long, and the varying uniforms in the tintype under duscussion here do not at all match the NL scheme. Below are Chicago, Detroit, and Troy, all in 1882.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by E93

Doesn't that indicate that is pre-dates a specific year? I remember hearing once that up until some year (188?) players wore different uniforms for different positions. I have a similar anonymous cabinet with players all wearing different uniforms.
JimB

Edited to add: Just read through all the posts and saw that someone already stated that in 1882 Spalding convinced players to wear different uniforms for different positions.

Jim, that's the cabinet you got from me, and those players are wearing the "Clown costumes" as some called them in 1882. Angela's tintype photo doesn't really represent the uniforms that Spalding had in mind, I just think it's a ragtag bunch put together. The Uniforms Spalding endorsed had specific colors and patterns depending on the position of the player on the field.

[olsport]

Take a read on this 19th Century Baseball website concerning evolution of the equipment. http://www.19cbaseball.com/equipment.html
Another thing to take into account is the players kept, and handed down older uniforms (and equipt.), since they were very expensive. Some of these in the tintype could have been 10 year old hand me downs, and some look like something just put together of any type clothes. Another great thing about the negro catcher, is he is wearing fingerless gloves (isn't he?) The catchers mask pretty much dates the tintype from the 1880s, as it looks like the newest piece of uniform/ equipment in the image.

Anyone think this may be a midwestern team. Segregation was still a very big issue in the North and the South at this time. Maybe even more so at this point than any due to the abolition of Slavery forcing thousands into the North out of the South. The Midwest would have embraced a skilled player regardless of color to simply fill the spot on a team. I swear I have seen that Logo on something from Kansas before and I have team photo of a guy from a bit later that looks similar. I am very interested in this. I love history from the CW timeframe. Especially when it includes baseball.

Since I can't copy the picture I will let whomever wants to do the side by side comparison make the determination because I dont have the program to do it It looks close and if you add a few yrs it could be