Hall of Fame Veterans Committee Ballot

[paul]

According to the Hall of Fame website, the Veterans Committee will be voting at the winter meetings, December 7th to 9th. In the past few years, the HOF has released the ballot in advance, but I haven't seen it this year. Have any of you seen it?

[bcbgcbrcb]

Paul:

I haven't seen specific names but this year they will only be voting on Umpires, Exexutives, Pioneers & Managers so no Players or Negro Leaguers this time around.

[Jim VB]

The following is a cut and paste from Keith Olbermann's baseball blog.



FOR YOUR HALL OF FAME CONSIDERATION:


Everybody except me seems to have a vote in one of the 87 committees that may elect some managers, umpires, and executives, to Cooperstown next month. I'm in favor of putting in all deserving candidates and I really don't care if we put it to voice vote at Dodger Stadium one night, just so long as we honor the deserving.


So here is a yes/no on each of the candidates, without getting into the woods of who's doing the voting or how:


Manager - Charlie Grimm: No. Longevity, not results.
Manager - Whitey Herzog: Yes.
Manager - Davey Johnson: No, but close.
Manager - Tom Kelly: Yes. Rebuilt that franchise.
Manager - Billy Martin: a controversial Yes. There's an amazing stat on him: he only had nine full seasons of managing. Eight of those nine teams finished first or second.
Manager - Gene Mauch: I'm sorry, no. Presided over two of the worst collapses in history.
Manager - Danny Murtaugh: You know what? Yes. Two World's Championships, and in his last stint (1970-75) he won the second of them, and a division in four of the other five years.
Manager - Steve O'Neill: No. See Grimm.


Umpire - Doug Harvey: Yes.
Umpire - Hank O'Day: No. There are about a dozen deserving umps. Not him. Whoever you think was right in the Merkle game, his ruling was wrong. It was either a New York win or a forfeit, not a tie.


Executive - Gene Autry: No. Bringing the A.L. to Southern California would've been done 20 years before he did it, had it not been for Pearl Harbor.
Executive - Sam Breadon: Yes. Saved the Cardinals from bankruptcy or moving in the '20s, built a dynasty with Branch Rickey.
Executive - John Fetzer: No.
Executive - Bob Howsam: No. The Frank Robinson trade gets you into Cooperstown?
Executive - Ewing Kauffman: No. An elegant, dedicated man.
Executive - John McHale: No.
Executive - Marvin Miller: Yes. For good or for ill, his impact for changing the game was comparable to Babe Ruth.
Executive - Jacob Ruppert: Yes. The Yankees were a joke before him.
Executive - Bill White: Yes. Could qualify in this role, or as a player, or as an announcer. Get him in there!



Edited to add: I find his blog among the most refreshing baseball writings available. His insight into basball, both current and vintage, is very thought provoking.

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/

[Mark]

I don't get the Marvin Miller argument. If someone does "ill" to the game, he does not deserve to get in the Hall of Fame.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Mark

I don't get the Marvin Miller argument. If someone does "ill" to the game, he does not deserve to get in the Hall of Fame.

He was a representative of the players, and they certainly have thrived under the agreements he negotiated.

The fans seem to attend in person and watch on TV in greater numbers than ever before, so they don't seem to have been harmed.

There is one, small group (30 owners) who MAY (and I stress "MAY") have been financially. However the value of their teams has skyrocketed. Steinbrenner's $10 million investment in 1973 is estimated to be worth $1.2 billion today. Even the owners of small market teams have seen their value climb. (Has anyone ever sold a baseball team for less than they paid for it?)

Hard to see how he did "ill" to the game. Within certain restrictions you have the ability to work for any company you would like in your chosen career. Why should baseball players have no options?

[Chris Counts]

Marvin Miller is a much more deserving candidate than Bowie Kuhn was, and he's in the Hall of Fame ...

[Mark]

My point was that Olberman does not make any sense in saying that someone who has had a big impact on the game, for good or for ill, deserves to be enshrined. I think you need to have helped the game to get in. Beyond that, I think that Miller et al did some real damage. In order to meet salary demands and to make a profit of their own, MLB schedules its playoff games during prime time in the east. Consequently, the most important innings of the most important games are played after midnight in the east. That will keep a genration of young fans from having the best memories of baseball. I concede that the reserve clause may not have been altogether just. But that doesn't mean that it was an altogether good thing. Most importantly, it allowed teams to keep some players for a decade or more. And as a young fan, I loved how my team had a core of players who had been with the team before I was born and how some players who played when I first started to follow the team (age 7) were still there when I finished college. It gave the club a sense of stability and recognizability that is now gone. Today, fans of poorer teams are afraid to get too worked up about a good player because they fear they will be lost to free agency. That is a shame. Jim VB says that a baseball team now functions like any other company. Ok, but I didn't get interested in professional baseball because it was like an ordinary business.

[paul]

Thanks Jim. I wonder where Olbermann got the list. And why it hasn't been publicized elsewhere.

I just picked up a card of Gene Autry today for a buck. I guess I'm rooting for him now.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Mark

My point was that Olberman does not make any sense in saying that someone who has had a big impact on the game, for good or for ill, deserves to be enshrined. I think you need to have helped the game to get in. Beyond that, I think that Miller et al did some real damage. In order to meet salary demands and to make a profit of their own, MLB schedules its playoff games during prime time in the east. Consequently, the most important innings of the most important games are played after midnight in the east. That will keep a genration of young fans from having the best memories of baseball. I concede that the reserve clause may not have been altogether just. But that doesn't mean that it was an altogether good thing. Most importantly, it allowed teams to keep some players for a decade or more. And as a young fan, I loved how my team had a core of players who had been with the team before I was born and how some players who played when I first started to follow the team (age 7) were still there when I finished college. It gave the club a sense of stability and recognizability that is now gone. Today, fans of poorer teams are afraid to get too worked up about a good player because they fear they will be lost to free agency. That is a shame. Jim VB says that a baseball team now functions like any other company. Ok, but I didn't get interested in professional baseball because it was like an ordinary business.

Mark,

I guess Keith's comment is pointed toward the fact that there are clearly two sides to this argument, but from either side, you have to admit that Miller changed the game toward what it is today. That alone should make him a candidate for the HOF.

I'm not a kid. I was born in the mid 1950's so my first memories of baseball were pre-Marvin Miller. Sure, sometimes I miss the "old days", but they weren't really better, at least not for the players. When Miller took over the union, the average players salary was $19,000. When he left, 16 years later, it was $241,000. Back then, many, if not most, players had to work another job in the off season. Was that better?

Teams can still keep players they want for a decade or more. They just have to pay them fair market value. The Yanks just won a Series with Jeter, Possada, Pettitte and Rivera having played together for the better part of 15 years. My son is now 20. He doesn't remember a Yankee team withou that core (except for Andy's 3 years in Houston.) That "keeping teams together" thing was at the expense of the players and to the benefit of the owners.

I will never get upset with you, or anyone else on the other side of this discussion, because I understand your point, but the world is different now. And baseball has to be different too.

I did like it when every city had 2 newspapers (Heck, NYC had way more than that when I was a kid.), but that's not going to happen again. Money and technology have changed many things. That TV money is going somewhere and I'd prefer it go to the players, not the owners.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Based on Keith's advice, tonight I picked up a Doug Harvey RC for $ .60 and a Marvin Miller RC for $ .45..........

[nolemmings]

As others have noted not only salaries but attendance has gone up the past thirty-five years. I too liked knowing with some certainty what my team would look like from year to year, but prefer to know the players are making the money they deserve, or at least what the market will bear. BTW, I have little doubt that we would not be watching mid-week, daytime post-season games if free agency never arrived, so don't hang that on the players and their salaries. Greed would still exist, and would demand that the games be shown when the most profit can be made.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by paul

Thanks Jim. I wonder where Olbermann got the list. And why it hasn't been publicized elsewhere.

I just picked up a card of Gene Autry today for a buck. I guess I'm rooting for him now.

I just saw this. The Hall released the names this week.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4642412

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

As others have noted not only salaries but attendance has gone up the past thirty-five years. I too liked knowing with some certainty what my team would look like from year to year, but prefer to know the players are making the money they deserve, or at least what the market will bear. BTW, I have little doubt that we would not be watching mid-week, daytime post-season games if free agency never arrived, so don't hang that on the players and their salaries. Greed would still exist, and would demand that the games be shown when the most profit can be made.

Todd,


LOL! Are you and I on the same side of this discussion? Should I be rethinking my position?

[nolemmings]

Jim, perhaps you should just sit back and behold the epiphany.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Chris Counts

Marvin Miller is a much more deserving candidate than Bowie Kuhn was, and he's in the Hall of Fame ...

I agree completely.

[barrysloate]

I met Marvin Miller at the Halper sale, and said to him I thought he should be in the Hall. I could tell by his response that it was something he very much wanted. Obviously, there are some people in major league baseball who don't like him.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Obviously, there are some people in major league baseball who don't like him.

Owners, I presume.

[donmuth]

who thinks it would be good for players to have a second job in the off season?

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by donmuth

who thinks it would be good for players to have a second job in the off season?

I can't see Manny selling insurance.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Jim, perhaps you should just sit back and behold the epiphany.

Except that now it's you, I AND Jeff agreeing on something! I'm a little concerned.

[Brian Van Horn]

who thinks it would be good for players to have a second job in the off season?

They do. It's called endorsements.

[Brian Van Horn]

As for the Hall of Fame ballot, I have to go with my prejudice for Murtaugh. I loved the teams he managed in the 1970's.