Simple Poll: PSA 5 w/ Crease -- Disclose?

[T206Collector]

What responsibility do sellers have to disclose when a card that achieves a grade that is obviously an over-grade because of a crease or paper loss? Does your answer change if the seller is an auction house, dealer or private collector?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Disclose; it's the right thing to do.

[benderbroeth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Disclose; it's the right thing to do.

and the buyer may request a refund if not disclosed i would think

[egbeachley]

Don't disclose so you can get full value for those who collect the slab and not the card. But be prepared to graciously accept returns for those who care.

[Leon]

My motto of "no surprises"...always disclose....as I did today in a small transaction with a board member. Now when he gets his card he won't have the "OH SH**" factor Nothing changes with the person, venue or company selling it. Always disclose...

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

My motto of "no surprises"...always disclose....as I did today in a small transaction with a board member. Now when he gets his card he won't have the "OH SH**" factor Nothing changes with the person, venue or company selling it. Always disclose...

If someone consigns a group of a dozen or so PSA 5 T206 cards to B&L, how well do you examine them to make sure they're accurately graded?

This is admittedly a tough question. If I ran an auction house, I don't know how much time or energy I would put into this endeavor.

[perezfan]

Always disclose. The grading system is inherently flawed, and it's not enough to simply call it a "5", "6", "7" or whatever, with no further description rendered.

I'm amazed at how many sellers do this, and would never re-purchase from one of them after being burned in this manner.

[T206Collector]

I just realized that all buyers will want the disclosure, and no sellers will admit to not wanting to disclose. I think the problem is that sellers, by and large will not, but hopefully will offer refunds to annoyed customers.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

If someone consigns a group of a dozen or so PSA 5 T206 cards to B&L, how well do you examine them to make sure they're accurately graded?

This is admittedly a tough question. If I ran an auction house, I don't know how much time or energy I would put into this endeavor.

Of course I am going to say we spend a lot of time...but not because it would sound stupid of me not to, but because we do. Admittedly I am not with Scott on receipt of every single card so can't speak for him but I know he looks at them very well too. Any question is fine...I might not respond to all of them, but any are fine .

[asoriano]

I would disclose the crease in the listing.

Although this is a different scenario, it reminds me of the T206 Elberfeld BL460 that REA offered a few years ago:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/.../2008/198.html

[Jaybird]

I always post larger than life photos and disclose any condition issues. As Leon stated, it allows the buyer to know what they are getting and limits the surprise factor. Though I think I have limited my $$ on many transactions, I'm happy to say that no one has returned a card that I've sold them.

The hassle-free transaction is worth the loss of a few bucks.

[Mikehealer]

Here's one I bought on ebay(auction not BIN) from a seller that informed me he doesn't take return on graded cards. I don't agree with his policy, but I wasn't going to argue so just kept it and don't bid on his auctions anymore. By the way the crease wasn't visible in his less than stellar scan.

[Leon]

That sucks, Mike....That is the "OH SH**" I am referring to....

[grundle20]

What was PSA thinking?

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by grundle20

What was PSA thinking?

They weren't thinking they were drinking.

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

If someone consigns a group of a dozen or so PSA 5 T206 cards to B&L, how well do you examine them to make sure they're accurately graded?

This is admittedly a tough question. If I ran an auction house, I don't know how much time or energy I would put into this endeavor.

At 19.5% buyer premiums, they better put time and energy.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by YankeeCollector

At 19.5% buyer premiums, they better put time and energy.

Absolutely. And we should even do it for fees of 12.5% Buyers Premium- (always) and 0% sellers premium- (always)....which is actually the way we do it. best regards

[novakjr]

F*ck Yeah, it better be disclosed. You are buying a card that is in EX condition, and NOT one that has just simply been graded EX..

[YankeeCollector]

Originally Posted by Leon

Absolutely. And we should even do it for fees of 12.5% Buyers Premium- (always) and 0% sellers premium- (always)....which is actually the way we do it. best regards

Agreed

[bbcard1]

I dislike slabbing, but if that is your standard, should you not also disclose when you feel a card has been overgraded?

"A very weak 6, probably should have been no better than a 4 using any reasonable measure. The corners show too much wear and the centering is off."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

I dislike slabbing, but if that is your standard, should you not also disclose when you feel a card has been overgraded?

"A very weak 6, probably should have been no better than a 4 using any reasonable measure. The corners show too much wear and the centering is off."

I think we can differentiate and not critique conditions which are more subjective and also can clearly be seen. Check out Mike's PSA 5 w/heavy front wrinkle, that is what I am referring to, not the fact that one corner might be a 4.5 and the others are 5.0s, or it's a little off center etc... We could have a whole separate thread about auction descriptions. regards

[Jaybird]

Please let's end the talk of "weak 6" OR "strong 5". That is still subjective.

I say things like... "Upper right corner ding, crease running from hand over to the right border. Brown stain on the back", etc.

To me the comments about the grading is putting subjectivity on top of subjectivity. It never sways me one way or the other when people say "way undergraded". I look at the card for myself and determine if it is over or under graded. I'm too cynical to take a seller's opinion of their card seriously. Too many years watching commercials without the benefit of Tivo has left me numb to "seller speak".

[itjclarke]

Doesn't PSA, and SGC for that matter, have a policy that allows you to re-submit clearly over graded cards.. and if they determine card(s) is over graded, they will pay the difference (or a portion) in value once re-holdered?? I have 2-3 that DEFINITELY meet this criteria, and have always considered contacting PSA/SGC, but haven't gotten around to it. Two are 5's with small creases/wrinkles, not as prominant as the Meyers', but nonetheless both should be no higher than 4s.

[mcadams]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

Here's one I bought on ebay(auction not BIN) from a seller that informed me he doesn't take return on graded cards. I don't agree with his policy, but I wasn't going to argue so just kept it and don't bid on his auctions anymore. By the way the crease wasn't visible in his less than stellar scan.

Its not that uncommon for a PSA-slabbed 5 to have a crease. I have never seen a 6 with a meaningful crease unless its on a corner. BUT, when you're buying anything 6 or below, its always good to ask. I bought a mid-grade PSA 5 slabbed '54 Aaron a few years back and it had a minor crease starting on the right edge coming in about 1.5 inches. The seller refunded my money, but after seeing that card, I ALWAYS ask about creases/wrinkles before buying now.

[Ladder7]

Obviously he missed the boat here. Years back, I tended to trust the graders flip (a little moreso with SGC). Now I pregrade, before sending them out. I'm certain PSA's authentication engineers are overburdened, looking at billions of shiny cards all day long. I can understand this. The amount of material they must study has to be enormous. Dry waterboarding.

On the hazmat unit, we have this crazy meter. You slide in a sample and it comes out with a breakdown of all the compounds within that test. We'd mixed up some pretty weird concoctions through the thing and can't stump it... So these punchdrunk graders can concentrate on vintage. I envision a device for Shiny's, where you slide the card into a slot (like a Charlie/Metro cards) it gets ejected seconds later, freshly slabbed and accurate to 99%. With todays microengineering, developing the software library would be the toughest part. Reckon I should mention, our meter costs $70K+ and requires tech upgrades, similar to an antivirus prog.

All sellers are not crooked.
We've all sold cards that were worse than we thought, Im guilty. We've also sold far cards that were undergraded, also guilty

A career as a grader?.. Keep the big salary, I'd rather dig cesspools with a teaspoon. S

[Gradedcardman]

A subject that will always be relevant. When I get back cards from the 1960's and forward and they are 5's or less I will generally bust them and sell with the full disclosure. With a 6 or higher I have generally attributed the lower grade to centering (I send everything marked as no qualifiers). I will begin to pay much more attention to this. PSA slabs many cards with a 5 with a surface crease if the rest of the card is essentially nm-mt. When I sell raw cards I normally go overboard with the details so I keep the customers coming back for more.

[Big Ben]

Definitely disclose. As Leon stated, that takes the oh sh** factor out of the transaction. Personally, I prefer slab cards when purchasing over the internet, but I study the card closely and then look at the grade on the slab to form my opinion on the matter.

[tbob]

Disclose. I don't think a PSA 5 or SGC 60 should EVER have a crease.

[bobbyw8469]

[We've all sold cards that were worse than we thought, Im guilty. We've also sold far cards that were undergraded, also guilty

Same here. The ironic thing though, NONE of the cards I have sold that looked a grade or two better than the number on the slab have been returned. I did have one guy tie up my money for 6 months though, after I sent a Jordan rookie card back to PSA for their "Grade Guarantee". He didn't like a minute spot on the back. PSA determined that the grade was indeed correct, and I had to pay return shipping back to me (more money down the drain). All for a card I made $10 profit on. After everything was said and done, I sold the card for MORE money on Ebay, and the buyer was pleased as punch!! Go figure....

[edhans]

Count me among the sellers who at least try to disclose any signifacant discrepancies with a TPG grade. The product we sell is the card, not some third party's opinion of it. There are a good number of auction houses and dealers who like to hide behind TPG mistakes, and shockingly enough, seem to get a pass on it. No one expects a seller to scrutinize every card of a 100 card lot of PSA3 T206 commons, but a dozen PSA5s? I think that would be productive use of one's time.

[leaflover]

No where in PSA's grading standards does it mention a crease on grades 5 or higher. On PSA 4 the standards state; "a light crease may be visible" It should be, IMO, a "slam dunk" for graders once they see a crease that the card can not grade higher than a PSA 4.5 vg-ex+. No matter how nice the rest of the card is.

Mike

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by tbob

Disclose. I don't think a PSA 5 or SGC 60 should EVER have a crease.

The previous poster is correct that PSAs own standards don't allow for any type of crease in a "5," but (to my surprise), SGC does allow for a crease in a 60 (5 equivalent):

80/20 or better centering, minor rounding or fuzzing of corners, roughness or chipping along edge (no layering), one VERY slight surface or "spider" crease may exist on one side of the card, gloss may be lost from surface with some scratching that does not detract from the aesthetics of the card.

In fact, SGC would even allow a 70 as it doesn't eliminate the crease condition:

A 60 EX 5 card with higher grade centering or corners.

As a buyer, I would definitely be upset if I received a 60/5 with a crease. As a seller, I accept returns on ANY item for ANY reason:

[barrysloate]

Is it possible that this was a crease that was once spooned out, and over time came back? It seems a little too severe, but it's a thought.

But when a card is this overgraded, full disclosure is a must.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Is it possible that this was a crease that was once spooned out, and over time came back? It seems a little too severe, but it's a thought.

But when a card is this overgraded, full disclosure is a must.

I don't think the crease came back. In my experience (and I have never done it but have seen some instances) when someone has spooned a card, to try to eliminate a crease, it made a shiny place where it was done. I have one or two cards where it was done and it is distinctive. That isn't to say it always happens, as I don't know, but that is my experience.

[barrysloate]

Hi Leon- spooning will cause a shiny spot, but I have heard stories (maybe they aren't true) of creases coming back some time after they were spooned out.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Hi Leon- spooning will cause a shiny spot, but I have heard stories (maybe they aren't true) of creases coming back some time after they were spooned out.

Exactly and that shiny spot would still be there, regardless. That was my point as I didn't see any instance of that from the large scan. I think it just got missed....Graders are human, and while it shouldn't happen, it does and will continue.

[T206Collector]

Spooning is to crease removal as scissors are to trimming.

Really good crease removal is done without a spoon and does not leave a shiny spot; same as really good trimming is not done with common household scissors.

Whether a crease can return is anyone's guess, but I don't think so. The more logical explanation is that PSA missed the wrinkle.

[mrvster]

Hey everyone

absolutely disclose....the cooler we are as collectors to each other, to treat each other with respect, and be honest about our cards(we can't take 'em with us), the better the hobby will become..

I want my son one day(waiting still to have one thats why i am able to buy a few cards LOL) to enjoy my passion like i have since i was a child......this hobby needs to be weeded out of fraud.....i believe reputation is everything!!we all make mistakes, and if some collectors would actually admit when they did something wrong, or just shady behavoir, i'm sure other collectors would accecpt them back...noone is perfect.....some of these collectors who have tarnished their rep should come forward and say, "hey guys, i was a dxck, i screwed up and ect ect, please give me another chance."....admit when they did something stupid, and move on...sure we can forgive and maybe not forget, but everyone imo deserves a second chance...(must be the Libra in me)

IMO- i would not even really touch a card at all, the way it came, is the way it would come/go....


if a card is labeled wrong, or missed graded, or a wrinkle is spotted and not disclosed, and the seller is aware of it, it's just shady to me....

thanks for listening to me spew, this is something i feel pretty strong about..


BTW- i would like to thank all of you fellow collectors who i consider friends for making my hobby as enjoyable as it is to me, for helping with my collecting...and for meeting some great friends and awesome people


Peace

Johnny V

[bobbyw8469]

This is one that I recently won from Heritage auctions. I can't believe I missed it. If you were me, would you be happy with this card????

[barrysloate]

Looks like they took a little too much off the top. Also looks like the Duke is sporting a little facial hair. What's the deal with that one?

[bobbyw8469]

LOL...It's not trimmed, and there is no facial hair. I am talking about the Lake Michigan type stain/discoloring that is taking up the left half of the card!!!!! Look at the top border and notice where the stain starts and then follow it all the way down to the bottom border.

[barrysloate]

The top border doesn't look good at all to me, and I see a shadow of facial hair on my scan. I didn't even see what you cited.

Now I see the stain. I don't like that card.

[teetwoohsix]

Great post Johnny !!

I agree with everyone who agrees with disclosing, it's simply just the right thing to do. I always feel comfortable buying from someone who I know will let me know if there's something you can't really see on a scan.

Mike's Meyers portrait is a perfect example of why a seller should disclose regardless of the grade issued.

Clayton

[mrvster]

Clayton,

Thanks bro....your one of the collectors who make this hobby enjoyable for me......

Robert-

OMG!!!....no offense, that is a return and one UGLY 7!!, i was very happy with my last heritage purchase, but someone needs a set of bi-focals at both fine establishments...maybe they spilled some beer on that one when grading

Good luck!

Peace

Johnny

[T206Collector]

The number of f*ckups I see in PSA holders really makes me sick.

I have a pet theory that people often sell the PSA cards because they're way overgraded, and they don't cross over into SGC holders. So the market for PSA cards ends up being greater ironically.

[Gradedcardman]

Bobby the stained cards are also overlooked by PSA. I had a PSA 5 t206 with a ugly stain as well. Sold it with the stain disclosed by the way !

[asoriano]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

The number of f*ckups I see in PSA holders really makes me sick.

I couldn't agree more.

After purchasing a PSA graded T205 Drum that SGC deemed re-colored (on all four of the corners), I've given up on their grading standards.

[Jcfowler6]

I think that eye appeal trumps card grade always. Therefore disclose.

Anyone ever seen a card with the wrong label from a grade company? They are humans and make errors. So we should always have integrity. How many times we say "it's a 2 but should have been higher"? The same applies in the other direction.

IMHO

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

This is one that I recently won from Heritage auctions. I can't believe I missed it. If you were me, would you be happy with this card????

That is a classic! Wouldn't be happy at all with the grading company or a seller/auction house that did not disclose the obvious stain. Maybe you should have caught it but that does not relieve either of the other parties of their obligation to catch it or to point it out IMO. I can see how it would be easier for the seller to have missed it than the grading company.

[Jcfowler6]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That is a classic! Wouldn't be happy at all with the grading company or a seller/auction house that did not disclose the obvious stain. Maybe you should have caught it but that does not relieve either of the other parties of their obligation to catch it or to point it out IMO. I can see how it would be easier for the seller to have missed it than the grading company.

Wow! Sorry for the raw deal on that card. Are the cases water proof? I was wondering if that stain happened after grading.