SGC Up-charges

[perezfan]

Is anyone here aware of SGC applying up-charges beyond their original order? I just got hit with $735 in additional grading fees (on top of the already existing up-charges from the original submission). The cards were submitted at a trade show, in which an SGC representative told me the exact values to list, along with the corresponding up-charges.

Much of the reason I went with SGC is that I was told (from good sources) that once the submission was accepted, SGC would not “hold your cards hostage” for additional money. Their customer service is non-existent… the only phone # they list refers you to an email address in which they never even respond.

Do you think this is a new policy, perhaps brought about by their merger with Collectors/PSA? Hopefully this is not a first glimpse of more corporate changes to get SGC more in alignment with PSA. They say that all good things come to an end, but really hope that’s not the case here. Please LMK if any of you have experienced the same thing from SGC.

Eager to hear others’ experiences… Thanks!

[Republicaninmass]

Horrid! Was it a 61 fleet chamberlain psa 10?

[brianp-beme]

My opinion, for all grading companies, is that fees for more valuable cards should only be based upon the additional cost to insure them when shipping back, and perhaps some adjustment for additional time spent examining them (perhaps double the low value fee would be reasonable). Any amount above these two factors is just a pure money grab.

Brian

[sb1]

Common practice by both SGC and PSA, if the card grade/value post grading falls into a higher grading tier they charge the difference between the fee paid and the one it is now in. Nothing new.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sb1

Common practice by both SGC and PSA, if the card grade/value post grading falls into a higher grading tier they charge the difference between the fee paid and the one it is now in. Nothing new.

^^This^^ Plus I always loved up charges because it means you are getting higher grades than expected.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I always loved up charges because it means you are getting higher grades than expected.

Precisely. I was not in the slightest bit pissed off when I got upcharged on a Bill Russell RC.

[brianp-beme]

In my mind still ridiculous to skyrocket grading prices based upon perceived value of the card being graded. Not only a money grab, but also a practice that would incentivize a grading company to increase the grade of a high value card.

Brian

[esehombre]

I know SGC advertises prices and grading "tiers" on their website but from my experience this has been loosely enforced (not at all in my case). I can remember a video from the SGC president firing a shot at one of their competitors for constantly upcharging for cards that received the grade you had hoped. I submit through Eric Drew at Boca Subs - Occasionally, I will get a message saying that a card has exceeded the size threshold and the cost would go from $14 to $85 or something like that.

I have submitted in excess of 700 cards in the past 2.5 years. Never an upcharge - not one. Several have come back well in excess of 4 figures. A few 5 figures.

How much value did they place on the cards that were upcharged and what was the breakdown?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by esehombre

I know SGC advertises prices and grading "tiers" on their website but from my experience this has been loosely enforced (not at all in my case). I can remember a video from the SGC president firing a shot at one of their competitors for constantly upcharging for cards that received the grade you had hoped. I submit through Eric Drew at Boca Subs - Occasionally, I will get a message saying that a card has exceeded the size threshold and the cost would go from $14 to $85 or something like that.

I have submitted in excess of 700 cards in the past 2.5 years. Never an upcharge - not one. Several have come back well in excess of 4 figures. A few 5 figures.

How much value did they place on the cards that were upcharged and what was the breakdown?

Here's the breakdown... But to preface it, an SGC Rep at the show walked me through the process and told me what to value each card at, and what the corresponding grading cost would be. It was a 13 card submission, of which the following 3 cards were hit with a second up-charge...

'33 Ruth:
Valued at $7,499 / Paid $250 to grade at show and was assessed additional $250 post-grading

'33 Gehrig:
Valued at $3,499 / Paid $85 to grade, and was assessed additional $415 post-grading

Colgan Chips Wagner:
Valued at $1,499 / Paid $15 to grade and was assessed additional $70 post-grading

The Wagner (which looks near-perfect, with no creases, wrinkles or surface wear) was given a 4.5 grade, which seems absurd (but is an entirely different matter I plan to address).

Anyway, I understand their upcharges are based on perceived value, but was told by many reliable sources that SGC would not hold the cards hostage after the initial submission. Just trying to determine whether this is a typical occurrence, as it may impact my future decisions on which cards to grade.

Many thanks!

[sbfinley]

Yeah, I'm an SGC guy and I can't defend that. The Ruth was probably declared egregiously low, but not in a manner to take advantage of the service. I will say that I have seen SGC gaining popularity on modern forums I frequent and a popular word of advice given out daily is "Send it to SGC. They will grade any card for $15" in response to people asking for grading advice on four and five figure cards. I used to try to correct them, but my life is too short to spend it teaching adults reading comprehension. It's likely you are paying the price incurred by countless idiots trying to sub everything under the $15 service level.

[Lorewalker]

I have heard from several people that they are getting more upcharges from SGC in the last few months. I think this Nat's influence from the acquisition. SGC used to let a lot of stuff slide.

I have no issue with it. I look forward to getting the emails/calls.

[JollyElm]

807. Strung-Upcharge
The futile irritation that comes when - after following all proper valuation protocols with a card submission - the TPG tells you that based on the grades your cards received, you owe them significantly higher fees.

See also: Embittersweet - feeling furious that you’re being stuck with unwarranted additional grading charges, but finding some solace in the fact that a higher grade ‘turned’ your card into a more valuable one.

See also: Slabductee - any card being held hostage by a TPG until the submitter pays the ‘ransom’ of higher service level fees.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

807. Strung-Upcharge
The futile irritation of, after following all proper valuation protocols with a card submission, the TPG tells you that based on the grades your cards received, you owe them significantly higher fees.

See also: Embittersweet - feeling furious that you’re being stuck with unwarranted additional grading charges, but finding some solace in the fact that a higher grade ‘turned’ your card into a more valuable one.

See also: Slabductee - any card being held hostage by a TPG until the submitter pays the ‘ransom’ of higher service level fees.

Those are all three great... very clever!

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Those are all three great... very clever!

Yowza! When I re-read it, I saw how awful the grammar was, so I tweaked/edited it and now I can sleep at night.

[Rich Klein]

I do get both sides on this

1) What I believe is when you pay to get a card graded, unless there is something more which needs to be researched or looked into that is what you should pay. Nothing more nothing less. Getting charged more later is aggravating as a consumer.

2) The other side, as pointed out on a Bill Russell RC, the ppstage/insurance cost to ship the card back to you needs to be adjusted for. If the Russell RC was graded and assumed to have a value of X you paid that to help for the card's safe return

If the grade was 1-2 higher than you expected and the postage/insurance to ensure the safe return then you do need to pay more to in actuality protect yourself.

I'm sure there is more but that's the simplest way to argue both sides of this equation. If something happens to your card on the return trip and the insurance, etc is adjusted you may have preferred to receive your card but at least you should be made whole

So figure out which side of this equation you want to be on and understand both sides of the logic.

Rich

[rand1com]

I would be happy to pay the up charge based on most recent VCP examples on Ruth and Gehrig. Would you rather they graded them 1 grade lower each with no up charge. That is closer to the level you submitted them at. The SGC rep should have said submit at this level but if they grade higher than this level, expect an additional up charge. If you don’t want an up charge, submit to Beckett. I don’t think they have an up charge.

I submitted a Willie Mays catch ticket to PSA at the $2499 level which was a grade of 3 level a couple of years ago and they charged quadruple because it graded 5 which was the highest graded example. I was happy to give them an additional $400 as the ticket sold for 3 times the value of a 3 at auction.

The up charge cost is always much less than the increased value of the higher grade. I personally hate the process but it has been in place for a long time with both companies and the higher value makes it tolerable from my perspective. It is true that historically SGC was more lax in up charges but the PSA purchase has obviously changed that.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The Wagner (which looks near-perfect, with no creases, wrinkles or surface wear) was given a 4.5 grade, which seems absurd (but is an entirely different matter I plan to address).

Mark,

Not really sure what you expected it to grade; 4.5 seems very generous considering all the corners are rounded.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Mark,

Not really sure what you expected it to grade; 4.5 seems very generous considering all the corners are rounded.

Excellent.... I can see that now!

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I have heard from several people that they are getting more upcharges from SGC in the last few months. I think this Nat's influence from the acquisition. SGC used to let a lot of stuff slide.

I have no issue with it. I look forward to getting the emails/calls.

Concur. I think they simply got too much stuff at the $15 level and now others are paying the price.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Can't all of this be avoided by the companies implementing a simple rule?

The most vomit-inducing buzzword of the last few years has to be "comps". Well, make the customer cite X number of recent hammer prices for what grade they feel the card should be getting. This can then be cross-referenced for accuracy. Yes, that's a very time-consuming task, but someone on each company's end is clearly already spending time ascribing values in one manner or another.

If anything, one could assume that this may end up saving some customers money (on their submissions, anyway) when their delusions of grade grandeur result in a refund due to the TPA disagreeing that their cards truly aren't that minty fresh to accurately correspond with the referenced comps!

(Of course, nothing this simple would ever work out. It was written as a joke more than anything.)

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Do you think this is a new policy, perhaps brought about by their merger with Collectors/PSA? Hopefully this is not a first glimpse of more corporate changes to get SGC more in alignment with PSA. They say that all good things come to an end, but really hope that’s not the case here. Please LMK if any of you have experienced the same thing from SGC.

Mark, you do bring up a good question. Maybe this is the first of some changes coming to SGC. I certainly hope not but I have noticed some upcharges as well coming from SGC.

[steve B]

Upcharging is pretty much standard for grading or authentication. Even without grading.

Oddly in a different hobby, as far as I know if you submit something at the higher level and it isn't what you think (Super common if you don't know stuff)
they reduce the charge to the minimum which can be hundreds of times the value of the item. Think like sending an 88 Donruss common as a Goudey Ruth.

I have seen very few that don't have value based fees.

[irishdenny]

Slightly off Topic: An Please Correct me IF I am Wrong...

"But doesn't PSA Own SGC Now?"

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Slightly off Topic: An Please Correct me IF I am Wrong...

"But doesn't PSA Own SGC Now?"

It's actually "Collectors" that now owns both. People I've spoken with (aside from this conversation on net54) do seem to believe that the recent more strictly enforced up-charges are indeed a result of the merger.

[Snowman]

I regularly get upcharges from SGC. This is standard stuff and has been for years. It has more to do with which cards you're submitting then anything else. If you submit lower end cards, you'll never get upcharged. But if you try to sneak in a nice Goudey Ruth at a lower tier, they'll upcharge you every time. If a card is only slightly above the threshold, they'll usually let it slide (so far, always in my case). But if you're submitting a $12k card at $7499 max level, you're getting hit with it every time in my experience. They have grading tiers for a reason. This is their business model.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Mark,

Not really sure what you expected it to grade; 4.5 seems very generous considering all the corners are rounded.

Nicer than mine with the 4 corners...

Thatsa gorgeous Culligan man chipwich and the rest are beautiful too Mark

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Nicer than mine with the 4 corners...

Thatsa gorgeous Culligan man chipwich and the rest are beautiful too Mark

I would advise that you not indulge too heavily on the Culligan Man Chipwich...they are known to cause indigestion.


Brian

[puckpaul]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Here's the breakdown... But to preface it, an SGC Rep at the show walked me through the process and told me what to value each card at, and what the corresponding grading cost would be. It was a 13 card submission, of which the following 3 cards were hit with a second up-charge...

'33 Ruth:
Valued at $7,499 / Paid $250 to grade at show and was assessed additional $250 post-grading

'33 Gehrig:
Valued at $3,499 / Paid $85 to grade, and was assessed additional $415 post-grading

Colgan Chips Wagner:
Valued at $1,499 / Paid $15 to grade and was assessed additional $70 post-grading

The Wagner (which looks near-perfect, with no creases, wrinkles or surface wear) was given a 4.5 grade, which seems absurd (but is an entirely different matter I plan to address).

Anyway, I understand their upcharges are based on perceived value, but was told by many reliable sources that SGC would not hold the cards hostage after the initial submission. Just trying to determine whether this is a typical occurrence, as it may impact my future decisions on which cards to grade.

Many thanks!

With those new upcharges PSA would have been a better option.

[jethrod3]

A third party grading company that is willing to charge a flat reasonable rate, regardless of card value, plus actual rates for insurance and shipping, will be able to build a grading site in almost every state because of demand, and still make money hand over first at every site they build. There would be zero bias, since there would be no incentive to charge more money if the grade is higher and no incentive to grade higher to make more money.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by puckpaul

With those new upcharges PSA would have been a better option.

Agree, and I have seriously considered cracking and submitting the Colgan Chips Wagner to PSA. The only thing holding me back is... well, check out these FUGLY pics.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

A third party grading company that is willing to charge a flat reasonable rate, regardless of card value, plus actual rates for insurance and shipping, will be able to build a grading site in almost every state because of demand, and still make money hand over first at every site they build. There would be zero bias, since there would be no incentive to charge more money if the grade is higher and no incentive to grade higher to make more money.

Ah yes. You mean like Beckett? I hear they're crushing it!

[jethrod3]

I typically don't send in cards or any material for grading unless they are autographed, so I don't keep tabs on who is "crushing it" and who is not, and why, but wasn't that grading company also swamped during COVID and the increased interest in cards and memorabilia needing grading/authentication? It seems there is an upcharge at least for autographs at some of the third party graders grading autographs on the materials they will slab, but I can tell you that if there was a company that was reputable and charged a flat rate, I would be sending a lot more of my collectibles to that company.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jethrod3

I typically don't send in cards or any material for grading unless they are autographed, so I don't keep tabs on who is "crushing it" and who is not, and why, but wasn't that grading company also swamped during COVID and the increased interest in cards and memorabilia needing grading/authentication? It seems there is an upcharge at least for autographs at some of the third party graders grading autographs on the materials they will slab, but I can tell you that if there was a company that was reputable and charged a flat rate, I would be sending a lot more of my collectibles to that company.

Beckett charges a flat rate. The only differences in pricing they offer are with respect to turnaround times, not valuations of the cards themselves.

The hobby has nearly abandoned them. Their slabs sell for much less than PSA and SGC, and the pop report data shows them getting less and less market share every month. They are now in 4th place and appear to be destined for extinction.

[661fish]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Agree, and I have seriously considered cracking and submitting the Colgan Chips Wagner to PSA. The only thing holding me back is... well, check out these FUGLY pics.

Unfortunately Mark, I feel the grading companies have determined they are done giving high grades on Colgan Chips. In a way, it seems like they have conspired together to hammer and undergrade vintage these days. That's just my opinion but I'm sure others will agree.

[perezfan]

So let's see.... much steeper upcharges accompanied by much worse grades. And the sheeple continue to flock to them in record numbers. I'll take it as a sign to stick with rare memorabilia (the type that cannot be slabbed )

[perezfan]

BTW, still no return email from anyone at SGC... 6 attempts with no reply after more than a week. Awesome customer service.

[prestigecollectibles]

Originally Posted by perezfan

BTW, still no return email from anyone at SGC... 6 attempts with no reply after more than a week. Awesome customer service.

I have a 13 card Japanese baseball submission there for more than a month. Most of the cards have been graded before and all are in the guide. I was told by Brent that "Your submission has some obscure cards that require a deep dive into the research." They have no Japanese card experts so I don't know where they are diving.

I've messaged them a few times and I only get a canned response. I'm fed up with them.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

I have a 13 card Japanese baseball submission there for more than a month. Most of the cards have been graded before and all are in the guide. I was told by Brent that "Your submission has some obscure cards that require a deep dive into the research." They have no Japanese card experts so I don't know where they are diving.

I've messaged them a few times and I only get a canned response. I'm fed up with them.

I don't know exactly where they're diving either, but sure feels like it's up the creek without a paddle.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

This begs the completely generalized question: Why would you utilize the services of any company who apparently lacks the expertise to handle the work you want done? I don't go to Arby's for my macrame needs.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

This begs the completely generalized question: Why would you utilize the services of any company who apparently lacks the expertise to handle the work you want done? I don't go to Arby's for my macrame needs.

It’s a great (albeit obvious) question and the answer is pretty sad. This was the first TPG submission I’ve ever made. Managed to successfully collect for 30+ years with no use for any TPG whatsoever….

But I’m not getting any younger, and am thinking about my wife/family trying to liquidate this shit when I’m gone. 99% of the collecting population claims you have to grade these cards in order to sell them, and that grading makes it much easier for your loved ones to realize their maximum worth. So I finally succumbed and sent a few cards in to see how it goes.

I chose SGC because I like their slabs much better than PSA’s, I don’t like PSA’s crumpled baggies, I don’t like that they give number grades to obviously altered cards, I don’t like their inconsistent grading, don’t like their arrogance and don’t like their oppressive wait times.

Was hoping for an easy/fair process with SGC, but it’s been quite the contrary. For anyone else on the fence, I would give SGC the following grades…

Consistency of grades: D
Processing time: B
Customer Service: F
Communication: Non-existent
Honesty/Integrity: F
Pricing structure: D

Now my conundrum is what to do next, as a bunch of high-end cards remain raw. Guess I’ll wait it out and see if CSG can gain any kind of foothold in the marketplace. I like their new/improved slabs, but they seem to be woefully behind their competition in terms of prices realized.

Obviously I’d prefer to keep everything “raw” and may just instruct the family to forget the scam that is grading, and use Greg Morris. But the paranoia and derangement syndrome most collectors seem to have towards raw cards makes the decision a tough one.

Sorry for the “novel”… but you asked!

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Obviously I’d prefer to keep everything “raw” and may just instruct the family to forget the scam that is grading, and use Greg Morris. But the paranoia and derangement syndrome most collectors seem to have towards raw cards makes the decision a tough one.

I tell you what, I am amazed at some of the prices GM gets on their raw cards. Might be the avenue you are looking for.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Was hoping for an easy/fair process with SGC, but it’s been quite the contrary. For anyone else on the fence, I would give SGC the following grades…

Consistency of grades: D 1.5
Processing time: B 4.5
Customer Service: F 1
Communication: Non-existent 'Do not grade this issue'
Honesty/Integrity: F 1
Pricing structure: D 1.5

I have converted your given grades to standardized grading scale of 1 to 10, so that your core TPG audience can better understand.


Brian - 'AA' - Authentic Altered (reality)

[Snowman]

If you think SGC is bad, just wait until you start submitting to PSA