Horizontal t206's

[ullmandds]

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

[CW]

When I read this thread this afternoon during lunch, I was in the horizontal camp. Now, after Andy reiterated about the odd tilt effect that the T206 artists sometimes employed, and after 10 minutes of playing around with photoshop, I can conclude that the original photo was most likely, almost definitely, a vertical shot of Jack Dunn getting ready to make a basket catch. The key was getting rid of the tilt effect, as shown in the Chief Bender card by Andy.

All I did was isolate Dunn from his T206 card, then I rotated Dunn clockwise maybe 20-40 degrees until his belt was basically horizontal (or at least until it looked normal) -- this removed the tilt. Due to the cropping of the T206 image, I had to (crudely) draw in a little bit of pants below Dunn's belt in the lower left, and also a bit of Dunn's elbow.

Once I had this image, I could view it both vertically and horizontally, and I think the the image looks MUCH more natural in the vertical position, as if Jack is getting ready to lower his hands to make a basket catch, as others have mentioned previously. When viewed as a horizontal, it just doesn't look right, and the arms simply don't look like he's naturally diving.

The first image with black background is original from the card, the 2nd image is vertical without the tilt, and for the 3rd image I simply rotated the 2nd image 90 degrees.

[DerekMichael]

net54 is so cool

[wazoo]

I'm convinced.

[freakhappy]

Good work, Chuck...looks convincing!

In my first post, I stated that if it was intended to be a vertical pose, it was poorly done...which it looks to be the case after Chuck's manipulations.

I believe that because of the poorly designed outlook of the card, making it hard to tell either way and without research, it still looks like it could be a horizontal pose

Here are a few points that make it believable:

-David had some good input, stating that Dunn could not extend his left elbow above his neck (I believe), so even if the position looked vertical, it could have easily been skewed because of his inability to extend further.
-The diagonal pose made pretty much everyone somewhat unsure because of the angle
-The solid green background does not signify whether it was vertical or horizontal

I was ready to reply and still be somewhat in the middle on this until I remembered the T206 below...it is the exact same pose, but centered...with a horizon. It seems that Dunn is in fact, supposed to be considered in a vertical pose.

Good job investigating until we found some solid ground to go on

[CW]

Thanks, Mike.

Jim R. also made this post in the old thread David linked, showing another typical catch:

Originally Posted by cfc1909

here are both Bays

Attachment 6816

If the "T206" artist hadn't tilted the damn Dunn image on the card, we wouldn't even be having this discussion!

[freakhappy]

I totally agree and it definitely looks more clear now.

If I would have clicked on the link, maybe I would have figured it out sooner

If only the artist straightened his pose out like you said...

[Bpm0014]

Can someone please post pictures of Shannon, Bay, and Dunn side by side by side next to each other? I then want to give a simple (but maybe meaningless) argument that Dunn should be horizontal....

[t206fix]

Definitely horizontal....

[Bocabirdman]

Getting overly scientific in our analysis of Dunn's positioning is a losing battle. Given the non-baseball-appropriate poses that are scattered throughout the set, it is a pointless exercise:.D

[thehoodedcoder]

its quite possible the mechanics of baseball were not the same back then. lots of stuff has changed over time.

for example, nowadays everyone slides, even on seemingly routine fly balls, to help block the ball.

when was the diving catch started?

kevin

[ullmandds]

nice drawing Tony...looks more like you're "proving" diagonal than horizontal to me? But I agree that this discussion is another example of futile T206 over-analysis...paralysis!

And on that note...I'll shut up!!!!

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

And on that note...I'll shut up!!!!

Liar!


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[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i thought the debate was horizontal vs vertical? I wouldn't rule out a "diagonal" portrayal...but I still believe it is meant to be vertical and I think slipk1068's description is spot on.

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.



EDIT: Sorry I was posting my reply at the same time you decided to bow out of this conversation. It was not meant to pull you back in.

[t206fix]

Thanks, Pete - I took Art class in 4th grade. I know that those legs do look so lifelike, but, just so that you guys don't get the wrong idea... those are not his real legs. I repeat, not his real legs!

I guess diagonal it is!

[Jayworld]

[QUOTE=
From Google: When he was nine, a boxcar ran over his left arm while playing at a local railway. He was told by doctors that his arm had to be either amputated or risk death. He declined an amputation, but his arm was left crippled from above the elbow and couldn't lift the arm above his neck.
[/QUOTE]

From this quote found on google (and available on Wikipedia), it seems to me that the photo that the artist worked from to create this card would have not shown him with his left arm above his neck (as per the vertical card position seems to suggest), as that would have been a physical impossibility for Jack Dunn due to his injury as a boy.

Wow, maybe the first time I've ever weighed in on a T206 topic….

In relation to the thread, I own four of the six agreed upon horizontals. Missing Mullin and Birmingham. At one time, I had a Birmingham acquired from Richard Gelman's Card Collector's Company in the late 1970s. Cost me 50 cents and had a great deal of scorching/fire damage to the edges of the card. In fact, when I removed the card from the mail package, about 1/8" of the right end of the card crumbled…. I later sold the card.

[Bpm0014]

In the simplest terms: Look at the "B" on Dunn's sleeve. Look at the B vertically... Then again horizontally... It makes much more sense that this is a horizontal card.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.

Hold tight, Andy...don't let 'em sway ya!!

The point of this thread is not to necessarily sway anyone, but to try to figure out which pose seems more logical

The only reason we are having this friendly debate is because the card was done so poorly...giving us no indication either way, but I guess it is fun trying to figure it out.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm still leaning towards it being a horizontal. Had the image been printed like this, it wouldn't even be a discussion...

[freakhappy]

Either way, the card looks much better positioned in the horizontal position. I am not convinced it is supposed to be a vertical card, but I don't see any reason to beat it into the ground without any new evidence...could definitely go either way.

At this point, everything is just speculation...

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm still leaning towards it being a horizontal. Had the image been printed like this, it wouldn't even be a discussion...

The discussion would be "Why is Dunn the only upside down t206 card?"

[CW]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Right but the diagonal portrayal still would help determine if it was originally a vertical picture that was tilted slightly to fit the confines of the space or was it a horizontal picture to start with.

I still have not seen a single reason this should be horizontal other than "I like it that way". Which is fine if you want to display it that way, but it definitely won't sway any opinions. I am merely making a point as to why I believe it was vertical to start with by going beyond the "I like it that way" approach.

I like the effort made thus far to find pictures used for t206 cards that Scott has displayed on t206themonster.com website. Until I found the Bender on his site I wouldn't have even thought of the tilt option. I hope he has the oppurtunity to add this Dunn picture soon.

Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.



EDIT: Sorry I was posting my reply at the same time you decided to bow out of this conversation. It was not meant to pull you back in.

These are the two keys for me... we already have evidence of a prior card being slightly rotated counterclockwise in the Chief Bender card. If you take the vertical pose of Dunn making a basket catch and rotate it a few degrees counterclockwise, you end up with the pose found on the T206 of Dunn.

In addition, we have numerous cards in the hobby of players making basket catches similar to the view of Dunn positioned vertically, yet we have no examples of cards from the era showing players making a diving catch.

Yes, we still have a shred of possibility that the original Dunn image was a diving catch with Dunn laying out horizontally, but SO much of the evidence points to the original image being a vertical Dunn making a standard basket catch.

[ullmandds]

Too late! Just beat it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B2wtC91_0U

[freakhappy]

Something to think about...

Let's say for arguments sake, Dunn is in fact in a vertical pose. However, can we argue that although it may be a vertical pose, it was meant to be looked at horizontally? I know I am not alone in my thinking that it looks a lot better horizontally.


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[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Something to think about...

Let's say for arguments sake, Dunn is in fact in a vertical pose. However, can we argue that although it may be a vertical pose, it was meant to be looked at horizontally? I know I am not alone in my thinking that it looks a lot better horizontally.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can never assume intentions. For me though the card looks strange horizontal, but everyone can display as they like.

Whether you see the card as horizontal or vertical may never really be changed.

Sort of like Optical Illusions:

[Julz24]

Maybe this has been talked about already but - the cards from this set were all based off of photographs right? I'm not sure that camera technology such as telephoto lenses and fast shutter speeds were available in the early 20th century. The ability to capture an action shot of a player diving for a ball would have been difficult if not impossible.

Just a thought. I personally enjoy seeing the card displayed horizontally, I'm just not convinced that was the intention.

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by CW

we have numerous cards in the hobby of players making basket catches similar to the view of Dunn positioned vertically, yet we have no examples of cards from the era showing players making a diving catch.

+1

Those old gloves had NO pocket. If you tried to catch a fly ball with your hands above your head, palm turned outward, the ball would bounce out of your glove. I would venture to say that 90% or more of popups in 1910 were basket catches. I could be wrong with that number, but certainly basket catches were the norm and over the head catches were by far the exception.

You folks are looking at this through 21st century eyes instead of 19th/early 20th century eyes. I am sure that any baseball fan who pulled this from a pack or kid who collected this in 1910 viewed this as a basket catch and didn't even consider it to be a diving catch. Jack Dunn is camped under a fly ball setting up to make a basket catch on his T206 card.

[slipk1068]

and who are we to argue/change what the kids/fans of the day saw when they viewed this card

[AMBST95]

This thread has me losing my mind. I have 5 Dunns sitting on my desk right now, all positioned at different angles, and have completely lost it. It's my opinion that the diagonal theory is probably correct, but that the original artist knew he'd be messing with all of us when he designed the card. Seriously though, by using the diagonal pose, it allows the artist to include more of his arms. If Dunn was physically unable to lift his arms high and they would have included a normal vertical image, his glove would be off the print area of the card. The distance from his right shoulder to the end of the glove is longer than the width of the print area. This is why they tilted the image to allow his full arms to be depicted.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

I have been wondering if there has been a single picture of a diving catch prior to the web being put on the glove? I haven't seen one (that is not saying much as I am young and don't collect vintage photos). I have seen posed images on Old Judge, but those have always seemed more of sliding for a fast ground ball. Too me it seems that without the web of the glove a dive for a ball would not be the smarter move as I would assume the impact of the ground would knock the ball loose more times than not. Especially if you aren't going to brace for the fall as you would have to assume Dunn is not doing if you want to believe this is horizontal.

Again. I am not saying they didn't dive but I haven't seen evidence that they did.

[QUOTE=bn2cardz;1228184]
Even if I am wrong and it is a diving catch, I would love to see a vintage photo of a diving catch because, as stated previously, I haven't seen one.QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Julz24

Maybe this has been talked about already but - the cards from this set were all based off of photographs right? I'm not sure that camera technology such as telephoto lenses and fast shutter speeds were available in the early 20th century. The ability to capture an action shot of a player diving for a ball would have been difficult if not impossible.

Just a thought. I personally enjoy seeing the card displayed horizontally, I'm just not convinced that was the intention.

I had brought it up, but not for the sake of the Cameras (but I agree for that reason also). I really just can't imagine trying to dive for a ball with a finger glove and be expected to catch the ball. I would love to see a non staged photo of it happening. It would be a neat find.

[CW]

A fellow board member and collector pointed out yet another card where the artist took the liberty to rotate the image (once again) about 20-25 degrees counterclockwise. Found at T206resource.com, you can also see the same artistic tilt effect used on the Patsy Dougherty card.

Although the debate of horizontal vs. vertical might be getting a bit old, this discussion does give a little insight into how these cards were originally laid out and cropped by the artists who helped create what we call The Monster.

It seems like in each case (Bender, Dunn, and now Dougherty) the guy laying out the artwork on the card rotated the image about 20 degrees counterclockwise. In the case of the Dunn, it creates an odd effect if you view the card vertically, but with Bender and Dougherty it fits the card.

I can also see why the artist took these liberties -- he/she had a fairly narrow window to work within, so these changes were possibly made to make the player "fit" on the image space of the card, without having to show a bunch of dead space above the player.

In conclusion, I believe the original image used for the Dunn was a shot of him standing upright to make a basket catch. However, it is possible that the intention of the artist was to give the viewer the effect that Dunn is diving -- it's possible.

Here's the Dougherty comparison, and what I think the Dunn card would've looked like if the artist did not use the tilt effect (notice all the dead space I had to leave above Dunn, almost making it look like an E card)...

[celoknob]

Before reading the evidence presented here (which I will not rehash) I would have leaned toward the card being horizantal, albeit with a great deal of uncertainty.

Although still somewhat ambiguous, my thinking has definitely shifted towards thinking it is vertical but with the diagonal tilt illustrated on these other cards. The card is interesting because, in my opinion, it was so poorly executed. I don't think it was on purpose to confuse. Anyway, for some reason I found this discussion interesting.

[steve B]

Another one that's been rotated is Davis.


The T206 may be the rotated one.

The one shown may also be a bit special but it's in bad enough shape it's hard to tell. But that's for another thread.

Steve B

[CW]

Now the question is... Moose McCormick.... vertical or horizontal???

[freakhappy]

Chuck...I don't think this topic is getting old as long as we continue to find reasons to keep it alive...and I don't mean beating it into the ground...I think we've made progress! There have been more than a few members contribute with pictures and good/helpful info.

McCormick....definitely horizontal!!

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by CW

Now the question is... Moose McCormick.... vertical or horizontal???

Trouble Maker

[GoldenAge50s]

Anybody named "Moose" doesn't go diving for baseballs, so it's a VERTICAL!

[Runscott]

...........

[Runscott]

Since no one's biting:

[CW]

Nice! Missing color variation, too!

[jerrys]

T206Pelty.jpg

[Julz24]

O NO.!.!.!

[Runscott]

uh oh

[braxtonrob]

Guys named "Moose" only field ground balls.
(Everyone knows this.)