Slightly O/T - Best 100 Hitters

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Posted By: Mark

A new book by a statistician produced a list of the 100 all-time best hitters, with many surprising results. Many 19th Century players made his list, including non-HOFers such as Mike Tiernan. The author's methodolgy is intereting and probably more complex than what's been done in the past:

http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/s7932.pdf

(player ranking on second to last page)

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Posted By: DJ

Lists like this are about as accurate as E!'s 'The 100 Most Hottest Blondes'. How can Harry Stovey make the list, Frank Thomas at #16 and Dick Allen in the thirties and can we really compare pre-war with post war with the roid rage era? Geez, I spent way too much time thinking about this as is, I need to go back to the Mastro page and look at all the things I finished like sixth and seventh in the bidding (probably) and won't win now or tommorow.

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

Obviously you didn't bother to read this. This list is far more accurate than those silly E! or VH1 lists. This list was created from raw data and tried and true statistical analysis was used to derive this list. It isn't some guy's personal list of who he thinks is the 100 greatest hitters.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: DJ

I did read it Jay, thanks for asking. I have an opinion (as you ALWAYS do) and thanks for telling me mine is incorrect.

DJ

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Posted By: jay behrens

Mark, forgot to mention, seeing Tiernan isn't a surprise. Every time the SABR stats committee talks about 19c and Deadball players that deserve HOF consideration, Teirnan is always at the top of the list.

OJ collector, why would you think Stovey doesn't belong? Even before I joined SABR I knew who Stovey was and that he was considered of the best hitters of his day. He was also the first OJ I bought.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: anonymousdave

...and Frank Howard...better hitters than Clemente ??

not on my planet.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Im a huge Clemente fan,a Pirates fan since i was old enough to root for a team and altho the list is a bit off i could see how they rank Howard or Powell ahead of Clemente.First off its just based on hitting and both of those guys have higher combined on base % and slugging % than Clemente eventho he hit for a much higher average.They also had a better RBI per AB average than him. All 3 of them struck out alot so based solely on that you could say its not far fetched to rate them as high or slightly higher.

If defense and speed is factored is then you wouldnt even see Powell and Howard on the list and Clemente would be ranked higher but its not so im not going to argue

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Posted By: Rich Klein

These writers try to "normalize" each year to an average and then compare a player to that normalized average.

One thing that does is help the players of the 1960's who suffered through the second dead ball era versus the hot shots of the 20's-30's who played during an time when scoring was much higher.

Is it right? Is it wrong? I don't know -- but that as a general principle is how these stat type of books are done

Rich

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Posted By: Elliot

Jack Fournier???? Something is wrong with his methodology.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

These lists are always a source of much opinion and fruitless debate. Although we all recognize this, it is still difficult to not put your two cents in.

I will now fall into the temptation:

While arguement can be made for inclusion of hitters listed 1-5 in a top ten list, there is no apparent justification for grading Mantle above either Cobb or Foxx.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Come on, Elliot. Are you mad it's not "Jacques Fournier" and he's not from Moose Jaw?

Not HOF caliber by any stretch of the imagination, but Fournier was a pretty good player. Besides, would you argue with the "Big Train?"

"I don't believe I ever pitched to a player who took more liberties with my stuff than Jack Fournier...Fournier was the original tough baby for me." - Walter Johnson in Reach Guide (1924)

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Posted By: Mark Tylicki

ICHIRO! I'm not a big fan of modern baseball but this guy is amazing.

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: agnosticdave

You are incorrect. Clemente had a higher lifetime slugging pct. than Powell and had a higher OBP than Howard.

Now take a look at the Park/League adjusted numbers and Clemente blows them both out of the water in AVG. SLG. and OBP. He also had far better post-season stats than either.

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Posted By: Elliot

Kevin, Since you seem to know so much about Fournier, I'm surprised that you didn't know that his real name was Jean-Francois Fournier (anglicized to John Frank) and he was actually Canadian. He was born in AuSable MI as his parents were visiting from Quebec. AuSable had quite a large Quebecois population, similiar to areas of Louisiana.

Notwithstanding his Canadian link, he certainly was a curious selection to the top 100 batters list, given his run of the mill numbers during a time when most batting statistics were inflated.

Also, I'm surprised by Johnson's comment as Fournier only played 3 real years in the AL, with all of 15 HR's, the last one in 1916, 8 years before Johnson was quoted.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Now you've hurt my feelings.

You should know after all these years I generally do my research. There was a reason for my Jacques crack. It's right there on the back of my T207 of him:



Despite what some Reach Guide spin-meister may have done with Walter Johnson's supposed quote, Fournier is ranked in the top 100 lifetime of several batting categories and I do think he was a good player or I wouldn't have a card of him:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/fournja01.shtml

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Posted By: Elliot

Kevin, I didn't know that you collected trimmed cards.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

With the way prices are going these days, trimmed cards are about all I can afford!

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Posted By: Julie

?