PWCC expands its lending activities

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by trambo

I watched the clip and while there were some questions raised, to me it's nothing more than a guy spreading a rumor. Another thought or explanation could be the lending business for PWCC is so robust, they raised more capital to support that need. I have no information either way but just bringing up another possibility. I'm also not (nor ever) wearing an "I HEART PWCC" t-shirt.

As for lending against the value of cards, I'm sure there's a business there if done properly and I'd bet the returns would be very strong. Whether PWCC is on the good side of it or not isn't for me to say or even guess. I just didn't see any smoking gun w/that 5 minute clip but more a guy w/a youtube page spreading rumors for clicks. Throw some proof and it'll have much more credibility.

I tend to believe it's never as good as it seems and it's never as bad as it seems. Extreme's belief's on either end draw the hype and attention on social media... I tend to think it's somewhere in between. That's being said if you fail to do your own homework prior to engaging you may be setting yourself up for not so pleasant results. The homework I've done on PWCC has informed me enough to never use or consider to use their platform.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by trambo

I watched the clip and while there were some questions raised, to me it's nothing more than a guy spreading a rumor. Another thought or explanation could be the lending business for PWCC is so robust, they raised more capital to support that need. I have no information either way but just bringing up another possibility. I'm also not (nor ever) wearing an "I HEART PWCC" t-shirt.

As for lending against the value of cards, I'm sure there's a business there if done properly and I'd bet the returns would be very strong. Whether PWCC is on the good side of it or not isn't for me to say or even guess. I just didn't see any smoking gun w/that 5 minute clip but more a guy w/a youtube page spreading rumors for clicks. Throw some proof and it'll have much more credibility.

Very, very true, Troy. And exactly why I was saying IF these rumors/comments have any truth to them. We'll just have to wait and see if anything else starts coming out about this.

[MBMiller25]

I use PWCC to vault my cards and I use them probably 2-3 times a year to sell off cards for me so that I can buy other cards I want. I know this board is not a huge fan of them and some of the things they have done in the past, and thats fine. To debate the merits of them as company is not the point of the response. I wanted to respond only to provide some factual information based on what I am experiecing as a user of their platform.

PWCC loans out at 50% of the INSURED value on the cards you have within the vault. The value of my vault is mid six figures as of this post and that number updates almost daily based on current market sales. The insured value on at least my cards seems to historically low. As I said above, I sell typically 2 or 3 times a year and sell about 10-18K in cards at a time. What I have experienced is that the insured values on my cards tend to be 15-25% lower than the realized prices on those same cards via auctions.

I hope this information provides some of you value.

Edit to add: I have never taken a loan against cards or borrowed money from PWCC or anyone else for that matter, so I can not speak to repayment terms, etc.

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Matt. It’s helpful to have real info rather than speculation, and as Troy pointed out, who knows how accurate that video is, if at all.

Personally, I think 50% of value is a decent LTV on more stable cards; not sure I would lend on that LTV with more modern/speculative stuff. I mean, I still simply do not understand why/how a Luka Doncic or a Justin Herbert rookie (even if it’s a numbered RPA or whatever) can be viewed as valuable as a m101-4/5 Ruth.

[Popcorn]

a big concern for me would be death. not all of our family/wives are aware of the collection… so how hard would it be to retrieve it after.

[Snowman]

I take everything from Sports Card Radio with a grain of salt. Which is to say, I don't believe a damn word he ever says without actual evidence. He has repeatedly proven himself to be full of sh!t. This "anonymous" source is probably either some random troll from Blowhard or just himself making stuff up to get a rise.

I have first-hand experience with taking "loans" from PWCC (in my case, I wasn't borrowing money against cards in my vault, but rather taking an advance on cards I had already consigned for auction, but it's the same process). This is how it works. First, they appraise your cards and assign an insurance value to them. These values are always low. In some cases, extremely low (one of my cards was insured for $10k, but sold for $18k at auction the following week). If you have cards that you want to take a loan against, you have to put in a loan request for the amount you wish to receive. You are allowed to request up to 50% of the insured value for items in your vault, and up to 75% for cards that have already sold in one of their auctions, but for which you have not yet received payment (normally, it takes about 2 1/2 weeks to receive payment, but you can escalate some of those proceeds if approved - in my case, it was free of charge. I did not have to pay any fees or interest since my cards were already submitted to auction. However, there are fees if you just want to take a loan out on cards sitting in your vault, of course). After you submit your request, it then gets reviewed by a team of underwriters. They will typically send you a counteroffer for less than you've requested (so if you requested the full 50% LTV against the conservatively appraised cards in your vault, you will probably get countered for something like 35% instead. When it's all said and done, their actual exposure is probably somewhere around 25-30% of a card's actual market value when a loan is approved. Unless that's for a card that has already sold and awaiting payment, in which case they'll approve a higher amount as mentioned.

As far as a "bank run on the vault" is concerned, all that would do is cause a shipping backlog at PWCC. Even if they went bankrupt, everyone would still get all of their cards back. Unless they've taken loans out against those cards of course, in which case, PWCC obviously reserves the right to auction those cards to recover any funds owed to them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I take everything from Sports Card Radio with a grain of salt. Which is to say, I don't believe a damn word he ever says without actual evidence. He has repeatedly proven himself to be full of sh!t. This "anonymous" source is probably either some random troll from Blowhard or just himself making stuff up to get a rise.

I have first-hand experience with taking "loans" from PWCC (in my case, I wasn't borrowing money against cards in my vault, but rather taking an advance on cards I had already consigned for auction, but it's the same process). This is how it works. First, they appraise your cards and assign an insurance value to them. These values are always low. In some cases, extremely low (one of my cards was insured for $10k, but sold for $18k at auction the following week). If you have cards that you want to take a loan against, you have to put in a loan request for the amount you wish to receive. You are allowed to request up to 50% of the insured value for items in your vault, and up to 75% for cards that have already sold in one of their auctions, but for which you have not yet received payment (normally, it takes about 2 1/2 weeks to receive payment, but you can escalate some of those proceeds if approved - in my case, it was free of charge. I did not have to pay any fees or interest since my cards were already submitted to auction. However, there are fees if you just want to take a loan out on cards sitting in your vault, of course). After you submit your request, it then gets reviewed by a team of underwriters. They will typically send you a counteroffer for less than you've requested (so if you requested the full 50% LTV against the conservatively appraised cards in your vault, you will probably get countered for something like 35% instead. When it's all said and done, their actual exposure is probably somewhere around 25-30% of a card's actual market value when a loan is approved. Unless that's for a card that has already sold and awaiting payment, in which case they'll approve a higher amount as mentioned.

As far as a "bank run on the vault" is concerned, all that would do is cause a shipping backlog at PWCC. Even if they went bankrupt, everyone would still get all of their cards back. Unless they've taken loans out against those cards of course, in which case, PWCC obviously reserves the right to auction those cards to recover any funds owed to them.

I had a discussion with SCR on Blowout where it was clear he did not understand the first fucking thing about the PSA guarantee, but was dismissing all my correct statements about it with LOLs and inane observations. Bad combination of ignorance and arrogrance.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I had a discussion with SCR on Blowout where it was clear he did not understand the first fucking thing about the PSA guarantee, but was dismissing all my correct statements about it with LOLs and inane observations. Bad combination of ignorance and arrogrance.

He's the trolliest of trolls in this hobby. Fun for entertainment purposes I suppose, but anyone getting their "news" from him isn't someone I'm interested in having a long conversation with.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I had a discussion with SCR on Blowout where it was clear he did not understand the first fucking thing about the PSA guarantee, but was dismissing all my correct statements about it with LOLs and inane observations. Bad combination of ignorance and arrogrance.

Yeah he is a self-appointed expert (and he is anything but an expert) and he is always feuding with that other moron who runs Sports Card Investor on youtube. Both are perfect examples of horrible content and spreading misinformation but they both have a huge following.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Yeah he is a self-appointed expert (and he is anything but an expert) and he is always feuding with that other moron who runs Sports Card Investor on youtube. Both are perfect examples of horrible content and spreading misinformation but they both have a huge following.

I think they're brothers, right?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I think they're brothers, right?

It is with great self-respect that I can post that I have no idea if they are brothers or even what their names are.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

It is with great self-respect that I can post that I have no idea if they are brothers or even what their names are.

Lolol. OK, we can be friends now

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Lolol. OK, we can be friends now

If only I had known it was that easy. We could have done this long ago. Well better late than never, right?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If only I had known it was that easy. We could have done this long ago. Well better late than never, right?

What's next:

PSA buys sgc and beckett, “Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!”


You know the hobby is in Chaos!

[mrreality68]

The net result like any loan from a bank, using credit cards, or a vault is How you use it and pay it back.

IF done right (ie knowing you can pay it back fast), staying in your budget, it gets you the end result you want then good.

But if you have no control, its beyond your budget, you use it wrong/waste it, or you take a long time to pay it back then you have the risks and consequences that comes with it.

I prefer to avoid it but for some I am sure it worked well and for others it was a bad thing.

But all businesses will find a way to make money and PWCC, Goldin etc just is just another Service they provide to make money

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I take everything from Sports Card Radio with a grain of salt. Which is to say, I don't believe a damn word he ever says without actual evidence. He has repeatedly proven himself to be full of sh!t. This "anonymous" source is probably either some random troll from Blowhard or just himself making stuff up to get a rise.

I have first-hand experience with taking "loans" from PWCC (in my case, I wasn't borrowing money against cards in my vault, but rather taking an advance on cards I had already consigned for auction, but it's the same process). This is how it works. First, they appraise your cards and assign an insurance value to them. These values are always low. In some cases, extremely low (one of my cards was insured for $10k, but sold for $18k at auction the following week). If you have cards that you want to take a loan against, you have to put in a loan request for the amount you wish to receive. You are allowed to request up to 50% of the insured value for items in your vault, and up to 75% for cards that have already sold in one of their auctions, but for which you have not yet received payment (normally, it takes about 2 1/2 weeks to receive payment, but you can escalate some of those proceeds if approved - in my case, it was free of charge. I did not have to pay any fees or interest since my cards were already submitted to auction. However, there are fees if you just want to take a loan out on cards sitting in your vault, of course). After you submit your request, it then gets reviewed by a team of underwriters. They will typically send you a counteroffer for less than you've requested (so if you requested the full 50% LTV against the conservatively appraised cards in your vault, you will probably get countered for something like 35% instead. When it's all said and done, their actual exposure is probably somewhere around 25-30% of a card's actual market value when a loan is approved. Unless that's for a card that has already sold and awaiting payment, in which case they'll approve a higher amount as mentioned.

As far as a "bank run on the vault" is concerned, all that would do is cause a shipping backlog at PWCC. Even if they went bankrupt, everyone would still get all of their cards back. Unless they've taken loans out against those cards of course, in which case, PWCC obviously reserves the right to auction those cards to recover any funds owed to them.

What do you think about SCD talking about 30-40 people let go @PWCC tonight then? That didn't take long, LOL. Tomorrow, there will be a PWCC Vault run. We'll see. Won't we? Someone is full of Sh&*

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

What do you think about SCD talking about 30-40 people let go @PWCC tonight then? That didn't take long, LOL. Tomorrow, there will be a PWCC Vault run. We'll see. Won't we? Someone is full of Sh&*

If you mean this info is coming from SCR, I would not hang my hat on the info. Most of what I have heard come from this dude is utter bullshit. As intolerable as it is to listen to him, if this is from him, can you link it?

Thanks!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

If you mean this info is coming from SCR, I would not hang my hat on the info. Most of what I have heard come from this dude is utter bullshit. As intolerable as it is to listen to him, if this is from him, can you link it?

Thanks!!

He reluctantly gets kudos though for some of his card doctor nicknames.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He reluctantly gets kudos though for some of his card doctor nicknames.

Some of the stuff he says on his show in total seriousness is likely more hilarious than the card doctor nicknames.

[Snowman]

SCR literally called people "card molesters" for wiping fingerprint smudges off of modern chrome cards.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

What do you think about SCD talking about 30-40 people let go @PWCC tonight then? That didn't take long, LOL. Tomorrow, there will be a PWCC Vault run. We'll see. Won't we? Someone is full of Sh&*

Link?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I personally know multiple people who were recently hired at PWCC. So it seems odd if true.

[philo98]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Link?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I personally know multiple people who were recently hired at PWCC. So it seems odd if true.

If you use LinkedIn just search for Pwcc. There are a number of posts related to workers being laid off. I’ve seen numbers between 30-40. I tried to attach one screenshot.

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Link?

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I personally know multiple people who were recently hired at PWCC. So it seems odd if true.

Below is the post found on Linkedin from a now former employee.

About a year ago I went to the PWCC page on linkedin and there were 40-50 employees listed on their business page. I checked this morning and there were (still) 100+ employees listed. Some of them working remotely (likely the reason for the zoom dismissal) and numerous hired in the past 8-10 months. There were a number of category specialists hired in the past year in areas such as comics, memorabilia, etc.. This hiring spree, IE too rapid of an expansion, correlates time wise with the $175 million fund infusion. Guess the money was burned through quicker than expected..

[parkplace33]

Any word from the leader of pwcc? He has been quite quiet for the last few years.

[Rhotchkiss]

Not all layoffs signal a struggling company. Many companies (multiple industries) hired rapidly in anticipation of growth that never manifested, and they are now laying off those people to right-size the company given that the growth came. Suppose PWCC was preparing for alternative revenue streams - NFTs, video games, shoes, etc. but the NFT market sucks, and video games have cooled a ton after a few big profile auctions (I don’t know about shoes). There is no reason to keep that dead-weight salary expense on the books, so you lay them off. That doesn’t mean their card auctions, market place, vault, etc are doing bad. It just means they don’t need the people they hired to serve collateral businesses that did not materialize.

I have no idea what’s going on at pwcc and if the above applies, or if they are having larger issues, etc. I am just pointing out that layoffs do not always mean a company is struggling. It may mean they have given up on some growth

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Not all layoffs signal a struggling company. Many companies (multiple industries) hired rapidly in anticipation of growth that never manifested, and they are now laying off those people to right-size the company given that the growth came. Suppose PWCC was preparing for alternative revenue streams - NFTs, video games, shoes, etc. but the NFT market sucks, and video games have cooled a ton after a few big profile auctions (I don’t know about shoes). There is no reason to keep that dead-weight salary expense on the books, so you lay them off. That doesn’t mean their card auctions, market place, vault, etc are doing bad. It just means they don’t need the people they hired to serve collateral businesses that did not materialize.

I have no idea what’s going on at pwcc and if the above applies, or if they are having larger issues, etc. I am just pointing out that layoffs do not always mean a company is struggling. It may mean they have given up on some growth

right google and amazon have a had a lot of layoffs...they seem to be making a ton of money...once thing to layoff when making money, another to layoff when losing money such as First Republic bank etc..

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Not all layoffs signal a struggling company. Many companies (multiple industries) hired rapidly in anticipation of growth that never manifested, and they are now laying off those people to right-size the company given that the growth came. Suppose PWCC was preparing for alternative revenue streams - NFTs, video games, shoes, etc. but the NFT market sucks, and video games have cooled a ton after a few big profile auctions (I don’t know about shoes). There is no reason to keep that dead-weight salary expense on the books, so you lay them off. That doesn’t mean their card auctions, market place, vault, etc are doing bad. It just means they don’t need the people they hired to serve collateral businesses that did not materialize.

I have no idea what’s going on at pwcc and if the above applies, or if they are having larger issues, etc. I am just pointing out that layoffs do not always mean a company is struggling. It may mean they have given up on some growth

Not knowing specifically who all the released employees were and what their responsibilities entailed, it is tough to say if they lay-offs were targeted at these expansion categories or not. The two linkedin posters who are known to have been released yesterday are essentially software engineers and do not appear to be associated with any specific category. However, this is only accounts for only 2 of 30/40 employees out at pwcc....it will be interesting to find out what some of the other released employee's responsibilities were at pwcc.

[glynparson]

Layoffs coupled with the news of them getting stuck with defaulted loans were the collateral is worth 1/10 to 1/2 of what it was when the loan was written. Does not seem like good news to me. I don’t get why some are always so quick to defend some of the people they do, it mystifies me. As for sports card radio please show me all these times they’ve been wrong about the hobby? I think they sometimes are jerks about how they say stuff and there politics are absurd but they tend to be on top of the hobby and what’s going on. I must admit I was shocked at how good KG was on the show last night.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Layoffs coupled with the news of them getting stuck with defaulted loans were the collateral is worth 1/10 to 1/2 of what it was when the loan was written. Does not seem like good news to me. I don’t get why some are always so quick to defend some of the people they do, it mystifies me. As for sports card radio please show me all these times they’ve been wrong about the hobby? I think they sometimes are jerks about how they say stuff and there politics are absurd but they tend to be on top of the hobby and what’s going on. I must admit I was shocked at how good KG was on the show last night.

Agree Glyn

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Any word from the leader of pwcc? He has been quite quiet for the last few years.

Brent had a propensity for saying stupid things even though IMO he's very smart. If he's learned not to, that's a good move for him.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by glynparson

I don’t get why some are always so quick to defend some of the people they do, it mystifies me.

I am not sure if this is directed at my post, but if so, I am not defending PWCC. Rather, I am pointing out that layoffs don’t always mean the sky is falling. PWCC plays zero factor/role in my life/collection.

[trambo]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Layoffs coupled with the news of them getting stuck with defaulted loans were the collateral is worth 1/10 to 1/2 of what it was when the loan was written. Does not seem like good news to me. I don’t get why some are always so quick to defend some of the people they do, it mystifies me. As for sports card radio please show me all these times they’ve been wrong about the hobby? I think they sometimes are jerks about how they say stuff and there politics are absurd but they tend to be on top of the hobby and what’s going on. I must admit I was shocked at how good KG was on the show last night.

Not defending PWCC here at all but I don't think there's been anything more than rumor on the significance of the defaults w/substandard collateral. I also agree w/Ryan's comments that layoffs don't exactly equal sky is falling sort of things. I'm sure there are instances where PWCC did lose money on the loans but I'd guess (and it's just that) there was something in the business model to accommodate for it.

We'll see how it all shakes out.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

He reluctantly gets kudos though for some of his card doctor nicknames.

Full Disclosure... I've helped him with a few

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by glynparson

Layoffs coupled with the news of them getting stuck with defaulted loans were the collateral is worth 1/10 to 1/2 of what it was when the loan was written. Does not seem like good news to me. I don’t get why some are always so quick to defend some of the people they do, it mystifies me. As for sports card radio please show me all these times they’ve been wrong about the hobby? I think they sometimes are jerks about how they say stuff and there politics are absurd but they tend to be on top of the hobby and what’s going on. I must admit I was shocked at how good KG was on the show last night.

Agreed 100%. it's ALL pretty funny.

[Yoda]

If by any chance there is a vault run, I hope all cards are present and accounted for, audited by an outside 3rd party. I only say this because of PWCC's less than stellar reputation. And if any cards that were used for loan collateral are missing.....Gulp!

[Snowman]

Certainly interesting. 100+ employees sure feels like a lot for the operation they're running. As a point of comparison, Rick Probstein says he has 35, and those are mostly minimum wage kids/young adults.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Certainly interesting. 100+ employees sure feels like a lot for the operation they're running. As a point of comparison, Rick Probstein says he has 35, and those are mostly minimum wage kids/young adults.

Rick doesn't have the side businesses like a vault. He doesn't have to maintain his own platform. Etc.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Rick doesn't have the side businesses like a vault. He doesn't have to maintain his own platform. Etc.

Ya, PWCC has to maintain a website and a large database as well. And they have a finance department and sales people. I wonder how their gross revenues compare though?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Snowman

those are mostly minimum wage kids/young adults.

Just who I want handling my consignments.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Certainly interesting. 100+ employees sure feels like a lot for the operation they're running. As a point of comparison, Rick Probstein says he has 35, and those are mostly minimum wage kids/young adults.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...loyee-layoffs/

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...loyee-layoffs/

PWCC still has 130 employees, according to company founder and CEO Brent Huigens, who confirmed that about 25 percent of the company’s workforce was let go.

25 percent. Yikes!

[Republicaninmass]

Should bode well for earnings. When is the conference call

[Peter_Spaeth]

Huigens says PWCC is developing new robotics to handle an increased volume of submissions to its platform and is “incrementally introducing new features on our new digital marketplaces over the coming months, and we are preparing to release a robust financial services tool to the world.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Huigens says PWCC is developing new robotics to handle an increased volume of submissions to its platform and is “incrementally introducing new features on our new digital marketplaces over the coming months, and we are preparing to release a robust financial services tool to the world.

Wow.

That seems like a whole lot of ambitious plans. I guess we’ll see how they turn out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Wow.

That seems like a whole lot of ambitious plans. I guess we’ll see how they turn out.

Say what you will about him, he always seems to have ideas.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Say what you will about him, he always seems to have ideas.

Scammers usually do

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...loyee-layoffs/

I found the choice of words to start the article very amusing!


"One of the trading card market’s largest companies trimmed . . . "

.

[aconte]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Huigens says PWCC is developing new robotics to handle an increased volume of submissions to its platform and is “incrementally introducing new features on our new digital marketplaces over the coming months, and we are preparing to release a robust financial services tool to the world.

And yet if true from the Linkedin post, severance pay was a no go for those
cut loose last week....smh

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by timzcardz

I found the choice of words to start the article very amusing!


"One of the trading card market’s largest companies trimmed . . . "

.

Yeah that was rich lol.