1991 Desert Shield set - advice

[Avalanche325]

I have a full set +a few spares that has been in my family since '91 or '92. They were put in sleeves, boxed up and have been in a closet for the last 30 years.

I inherited them about 10 years ago. I finally decided to sell them, so doing a little research, sent the Chipper Jones and Nolan Ryan cards off to PSA to be graded. The Nolan Ryan card came back as 7, near mint. However, the Chipper Jones came back as "questionable authenticity". I was surprised, as these came from the Myrtle Beach Air Force Base just after the cards came out.

So now I am completely confused as to what to do. Looking up "questionable authenticity" ranges from "they just aren't sure, so won't put their name on it", to "that means it is counterfeit".

If they both came back as questionable, I would destroy them, figuring they are counterfeit. However, I don't want to destroy authentic cards that someone would enjoy. I would not want to do something either way that was bad for the hobby.

Do you think I should sell the entire set, with full disclosure of course? Would anyone even want them with a QA and a 7? Or do something else?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Avalanche325

I have a full set +a few spares that has been in my family since '91 or '92. They were put in sleeves, boxed up and have been in a closet for the last 30 years.

I inherited them about 10 years ago. I finally decided to sell them, so doing a little research, sent the Chipper Jones and Nolan Ryan cards off to PSA to be graded. The Nolan Ryan card came back as 7, near mint. However, the Chipper Jones came back as "questionable authenticity". I was surprised, as these came from the Myrtle Beach Air Force Base just after the cards came out.

So now I am completely confused as to what to do. Looking up "questionable authenticity" ranges from "they just aren't sure, so won't put their name on it", to "that means it is counterfeit".

If they both came back as questionable, I would destroy them, figuring they are counterfeit. However, I don't want to destroy authentic cards that someone would enjoy. I would not want to do something either way that was bad for the hobby.

Do you think I should sell the entire set, with full disclosure of course? Would anyone even want them with a QA and a 7? Or do something else?

Post a picture of the card and a close up of the DS logo. Fakes are fairly easy to spot. Could you also post the same for the Wade Boggs card(s)?

[swarmee]

If you got them from the right locations, your cards are very likely to be real. However, PSA is a little gunshy because of how incompetent they've been proven in the last couple of years. Since Chipper is the key card and sells for thousands in high grade, it's no shock they chose to question it's authenticity. You could try to resubmit, but that's pretty costly. You could submit to a different grading company that is cheaper, like SGC.
Yes, if you put together the set and want to sell it, there will be plenty of interested bidders.

[Avalanche325]

Here are a couple of shots. Let me know what you think.

Chipper Jones
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pp...ew?usp=sharing

Chipper Jones closeup - I'll try to get a better pic. Using an iPhone.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZxV...ew?usp=sharing

Wade Boggs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wRu...ew?usp=sharing

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Avalanche325

Here are a couple of shots. Let me know what you think.

Chipper Jones
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-pp...ew?usp=sharing

Chipper Jones closeup - I'll try to get a better pic. Using an iPhone.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZxV...ew?usp=sharing

Wade Boggs
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wRu...ew?usp=sharing

The Chipper is too out of focus and here is the pic of the Boggs. To me it looks bad but I am just on my phone. Anyone with a bigger better screen have an opinion on it?

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by bnorth

The Chipper is too out of focus and here is the pic of the Boggs. To me it looks bad but I am just on my phone. Anyone with a bigger better screen have an opinion on it?

If I were a grader, I would have given the same opinion.

Z

[bnorth]

The best advise for now would be learn how to tell real from fake. There are some great threads on here. I am out camping using my phone or I would post links.

I would be interested in the fake Boggs. I collect them and have a few as examples for spotting fakes.

[Avalanche325]

Looking around, I am seeing pictures of dozens of PSA graded cards that various forum members are stating are fake. I thought PSA and other graders were the authority which is why I got two of my cards graded. So, you can't even trust a graded card?

The more I learn, the more confused I get.

[ALR-bishop]

I am not smart enough to understand either Bitcoin or grading of sports cards, so I avoid both. On the other hand many people do real well with both.

Lots of threads on the main board about issues involving graded cards.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Avalanche325

Looking around, I am seeing pictures of dozens of PSA graded cards that various forum members are stating are fake. I thought PSA and other graders were the authority which is why I got two of my cards graded. So, you can't even trust a graded card?

The more I learn, the more confused I get.

None of the grading companies are perfect. There are correct way more often than wrong. With the DS cards it is easy to learn what is real and what isn't. You just need a known real card to use for comparing logos.

[Avalanche325]

Bitcoin I understand. Baseball cards......that is complicated.
Doing some reading on how to spot a fake. Down the rabbit hole I go.

[Statfreak101]

Alright guys, help me out.

Does this look like a legit DS logo/card?


https://ibb.co/tbNywTk https://ibb.co/tbNywTk
https://ibb.co/PwH3tq2

[Statfreak101]

Some more pictures. While I'm no expert, I believe these are not legit.

I got these out of an unopened pack from a seller who claims they are 100% legit and from a DS box.

Thoughts??

https://ibb.co/tbNywTk
https://ibb.co/PwH3tq2
https://ibb.co/tx9SMn6
https://ibb.co/SJkkJ9L
https://ibb.co/3FFj6JM
https://ibb.co/M5PrGy0
https://ibb.co/HCZcvq7

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My problem is false negatives from grading companies. I understand it, but not every rejected card is actually fake. The foil stamping process is not an exact science. You will get stronger and weaker stamps. Even the Boggs in this thread I wouldn't rule out 100% as it looks like an overly heavy stamp, but I see a lot of the correct details under all that excess foil. I have dealt with these quite a bit and they are a very frustrating set.

[ALR-bishop]

If I was seeking this advice I would pm the poster Zach Wheat who posted once earlier in this thread. He and Ben, who also posted in here, are the most knowledgeable people I know on the issue. I have a set myself that I am satisfied with as to authenticity, but do not have the expertise with the issue to give you an opinion based on the scans you provided.

[4reals]

There are also a couple good Facebook Desert Shield groups with guys who can help if you can provide a picture on the group.


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[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem is false negatives from grading companies. I understand it, but not every rejected card is actually fake. The foil stamping process is not an exact science. You will get stronger and weaker stamps. Even the Boggs in this thread I wouldn't rule out 100% as it looks like an overly heavy stamp, but I see a lot of the correct details under all that excess foil. I have dealt with these quite a bit and they are a very frustrating set.

That Boggs isn't even close. I do agree that the graders are horrible with these cards. For me the big thing is getting a good picture you can enlarge or a minimum of a 10X loupe and a known real one in hand to compare.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My problem is false negatives from grading companies. I understand it, but not every rejected card is actually fake. The foil stamping process is not an exact science. You will get stronger and weaker stamps. Even the Boggs in this thread I wouldn't rule out 100% as it looks like an overly heavy stamp, but I see a lot of the correct details under all that excess foil. I have dealt with these quite a bit and they are a very frustrating set.

Scott's raises an interesting point about the embossing. What is the answer? I am really not sure - but some variability is likely.

Is there anyone on here familiar with embossing? If so it would be helpful to get their input.

One of the issues with discussing DS cards is that every time more information comes out on how to spot a fake, the fakes get better. So I am not going to discuss these issues. I am not an expert on DS cards but I have reviewed quite a few. And fakes are getting better all the time. And some fakes have been graded by every grading service.

My original reference samples come from one of the creators of the DS set. He was a Topps executive in charge of the initial set design and production. He would take home sample sheets of this and other sets, presumably to review before the sets went in to full production. I was told other Topps people working on the set, also took home sample sheets. Sadly, the Topps exec passed before I got much information about the production of the set. The set is believed to be printed in 1 limited print run early on in the printing process after some corrections were made (cards with corrections i.e. updated have a " * " on the back near the copyright logo) and they started adding brighteners to the ink.

To those not familiar with the background, I bought the DS samples in sheet form from the estate of the Topps exec. The estate had several thousand sheets and they were in the process of sending them to an auction house. I ended up purchasing 11 sheets total, almost 2 complete sets, about 1,500 cards total, including 2 Chipper cards.

It seems clear Topps was experimenting with different things throughout this process as they began experimenting with ink brighteners, which led to cards with "glow backs" as noted by 4Reals. The print run is thought to be very small and it is believed Topps made 1 print run after they corrected most of the major stat/name errors early on in the print run in an attempt to get cards printed and shipped overseas before Operation Desert Shield ended. You can spot some fake DS cards by these characteristics

The card characteristics noted in previous discussions are consistent from card to card on every sheet. The embossing is also very consistent. Embossing for the most part includes one style, one width for the lines, one font, same spacing between letters, same letter positioning, embossing that is in the exact same position on each card with the overall embossing being of consistent, clear quality. There are very few smudges or areas where the embossing didn't get transferred. There are very few cards where there is excess embossing.

It is likely the Topps exec pulled these sheets at the start of the print run to take them home and examine the sheets prior to full production. How consistent is the embossing process over an entire print run? Unsure. Some variability is likely - but just unsure of the answer to Scott's point above. Definitely a good point and worth discussing.

Thoughts?

[bnorth]

Great post Mr Wheat.

For me there is about 10 things I look at. With me if they are not all correct it is bad. I have cards with varying amounts of the logo. Thing is the parts that are there are correct. These logos and the placement of them are very consistent. I have only seen one real logo that was way off from the normal position for that card.

The thing I see the most with people that have bad cards is they find a couple things that are correct and ignore all the problem areas.

For full disclosure if Mr Wheat isn't a expert I am just an observant novice.

[ALR-bishop]

Zach— the only thing I know about using embossing in a set is that if you don’t want people to counterfeit it, make it look like the Topps 1965 Embossed set

[4reals]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

The set is believed to be printed in 1 limited print run early on in the printing process after some corrections were made (cards with corrections i.e. updated have a " * " on the back near the copyright logo)

ZW, I had never heard this before. This would be another great box the check when ensuring a card isn’t fake before purchasing. I own a complete DS set and would love to cross reference my examples with this point. Do you happen to have a list of cards in the set that should have an asterisk next to the copyright that you can share either publicly or privately?
-4R


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[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by 4reals

ZW, I had never heard this before. This would be another great box the check when ensuring a card isn’t fake before purchasing. I own a complete DS set and would love to cross reference my examples with this point. Do you happen to have a list of cards in the set that should have an asterisk next to the copyright that you can share either publicly or privately?
-4R


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

4Reals,

Production being made in one print run early on in the print run is just educated speculation on my part. There are a number of pieces of information that came out from earlier research including the "rush" to print and distribute the set before Operation Desert Shield ended (lasted 40+ days), Topps understanding the difficulty in shipping/distributing overseas, most of the product going to certain areas of the military, and a large # of the unopened packs that were never distributed and subsequently returned to one facility. All of this suggests a bunch of cards were printed at one time and then "rushed" overseas.

I tried verifying with the Topps marketing people, their PR firm at the time that was publicizing the set, the estate of the Topps exec in charge of the initial set design and production and others associated with the set. There are just a lot of unknowns.

We have discussed the basics about the set and which variations were part of the set and which ones weren't (DS set is not known to have any legit print variations - but this not certain either)...and the same issue with the glowback variations.

Let me see what I can dig up.

Z

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by 4reals

ZW, I had never heard this before. This would be another great box the check when ensuring a card isn’t fake before purchasing. I own a complete DS set and would love to cross reference my examples with this point. Do you happen to have a list of cards in the set that should have an asterisk next to the copyright that you can share either publicly or privately?
-4R


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Joe (4Reals),

Following is an original 1991 Topps list compiled by Keyman Collectibles (Thanks Keyman) which was then hand compared to the various cards on my sheet (~1,500 cards) to create the following list. To more fully explain some of the abbreviations, the set was printed in 6 sheets or "half" sheets as those familiar with this type of printing would call it. Each sheet has lettered "A" - "F" designation on the reverse near the copyright logo.

Several DS cards do not have a sheet designation, which was later corrected in the regular 1991 Topps set. Once a card was corrected, the sheet designation was replaced by a Letter and "*" designation - with the "*" meaning the card was the updated version.

Most of the corrections were typo's. Here is the list in DS numerical order, DS="Desert Shield":

• Card #9 – No Print Sheet Designation – ie no “*B” on bottom of reverse.
• Card #21 Joe Morgan MGR – “87” hits; DS set has the corrected version which is “187 hits”.

• Card #22 Storm Davis – (Front) Copyright logo in Upper left corner above Topps in white border area; 1991 Topps regular issue has both. DS cards do not have the copyright logo.

• Card #42 Chris Hoiles – (Front) Black Border white or Gray border (DS cards have gray border).

• Card #48 – Dennis Boyd – 3 Variations –left wrist covers 40th Anniv logo; airbrushed pink to blend in with logo, no black box on banner underneath “40”; DS cards have 40th Anniversary logo which covers wrist fully with black border and it appears as if the wrist is behind the border.

• Card 49A Pat Borders (DS cards have 1986 – “40 steals in Kinston”) 49B (0 Steal in Kinston)

• Card 80A Fernando Valenzuela (DS cards have In 1990 104 ER in '90 Tied League Lead “◊” Present in line)) 80B (Led League)

• Card #83 Daryl Boston (Front) Line through his position, left side of card in the top portion of “OF”;

• Card #97A Brady Anderson Box at bottom, (DS cards “In Sept 2 RBI and 3 Hits”) 97B (Set, 3 RBI and 14 Hits)

• Card #100A Don Mattingly (DS cards 10 hits in 1990) 100B (101 hits in 1990)

• Card #124 Randy Bush – No print code on back of card, bottom, to the left of 1991 Topps copyright. DS cards are corrected and have a D* Print Code.

• Card #130 (Checklist) – no Foil Shield – consistent with both DS and 1991 issue

• Card 131A Checklist 1 (DS cards have #727 Phil Bradley) 131B (#727 Mookie Wilson); Card #727 is Mookie Wilson in actual set

• Card #153 Bryan Harvey – has A*B* print code on reverse to the left of Topps Copyright; Original DS card has A* Print Code.

• Card 155A Dwight Evans (DS cards have “In 1982, Led league w/162 games in 1982”) 155B (tied for lead.....)

• Card 167A Randy Tomlin (DS cards have 1989 & 1990 Club is “Harriburg”) 167B (Harrisburg)

• Card #189 Daryl Irvine (Back) 1988 GS has a “*” or blob; DS cards are corrected and have 14 for GS in 1988.

• Card #213 has A*B* Print Code on back of card to left of Topps copyright; Original DS card has A* )

• Card 236A Frank Tanana (DS cards have “In 1975, Tied for lead w/269 K’s” with the symbol “◊” Present in text) 236B (Lead League w/269....)

• Card #247 – Jody Reed (Bio is dark red; DS version have lighter red or pinkish box for bio.

• Card 270A Mark McGwire (DS cards have 1987 Slug % 618) 270B (1987 Slug % .618)

• Card 277 Scott Coolbaugh – (Front) DS cards have Streak on left side of hat; streak is airbrushed out.

• Card 279A Jose Gonzalez (Photo Billy Bean) 279B (DS cards have the correct photo)

• Card 306A Lonnie Smith (DS cards have incorrect stats stating In 1990, played in 136 Games) 396B (corrected not found in DS set and was
actually 135 Games in 1990)

• Card 324A Ron Kittle (DS cards have the last line of text @ bottom of card “…set another standard) 324B (“….tied another standard)

• Card 337A Keith Comstock (DS cards have incorrect Cubs logo on front) 337B (Mariners logo on front – Mariners is correct)

• Card 366A Checklist 3 (DS checklist has #19 as Carl Nichols) 366B (#119 Carl Nichols); #19 in Actual set is Jeff Robinson P Yankees

• Card 374 Larry Casian – Pimples on left side of neck can be seen; DS cards are corrected and have pimples airbrushed out.

• Card 378A Wilson Alvarez (89 & 90 minor league stats deleted) 378B (DS cards have minor league stats included)

• Card 454A Kevin Appier (DS cards have in the line for 1990 Omaha Stats deleted) 454B (stats included)

• Card #519 – Sparky Anderson – Back) – Bullseye covesr O in “…Anderson…” at the top of card in name. (1X is corrected); DS cards do not have this printers mark.

• Card 526A Moises Alou (DS cards show incorrect stats in the 1990 Pirates line, 37 runs in 2 games) 526B (0 Runs in 2 games)

• Card 527A Checklist 4 ((Back) DS cards on sheet incorrectly state #105 Keith Miller #719 Kevin McReyolds 527B (#105 Kevin McReyolds #719 Keith Miller). Actual DS set has #105 as McReynolds

• Card #530 Roger Clemens (Back) – Card # is pink. DS cards have not found variation.

• Card #588 Mark Whitten (Front) left hand is over or under border. DS cards have corrected – hand does not extend into white border.

• Card 593A Mike Walker (DS cards have in 1990 Canton Stats deleted 593B (Stats included) Note: Both cards have Colo. Springs Stats

• Card 599A Greg Myers (DS cards have in 1990 Syracuse stats deleted 599B (Stats included)

• Card 603A Wes Chamberlain (DS cards have incorrect photo with Louie Meadows with bat on right shoulder) 603B (correct photo –smiling no bat on shoulder),

• Card #648 Lee Stevens – Back of card; bio is dark red; DS cards have light red bio box.

• Card 656A Checklist 5 (DS checklists have corrected card numbers of #348 Palacios, #381 Lind, #537 Lavalliere) 656B (438 Palacios 537 Lind 665 Lavalliere) 656C (433 Palacios) actual 348 is stottlemeyer, Actual set has #348 is Palacios, #381 is Leyland, #537 is Lind.

• CardA 674 Kevin Gross (DS cards have in 1988 Tied for lead in BB) 674B (1988 Lead league) – looks like he led league

• Card #685 – Doug Drabek – (Front) Corrected – Gray-ish border on left & right side of card. Black broder on left & right side of card. DS cards appear to have both black & gray border, with different color team banners.

• Card 687A John Cerutti (DS cards have 4.46 ERA in 1990) 687B (4.76 ERA in 1990); 4.76 ERA is correct

• Card 692A Efrain Valdez (Born 6/11/66) 692B (DS cards have correct birthdate text stating Born 7/11/66).

• Card 706A Brad Arnsberg (DS cards have incorrect data stating 68.2 IP in 1990) 706B (62.2 IP in 1990)

• Card 780A Randy Myers (DS cards have incorrect stat line for losses - 15 Career losses) 780B (19 Career losses).

[4reals]

collecting gold right there^^^^