REA bids - health of the hobby

[ullmandds]

its insanity a mantle rookie sells for more than a wags!

[MetsBaseball1973]

They are both iconic cards, loved by many collectors, but a PSA 10 Mantle 1952 Topps will blow away the price of all but perhaps the best Wagner in the world in 2016 and beyond. Heck, a 50/50 centered PSA 9 of the Mantle might do the trick.

A PSA 10 Mick may even surpass the best Wagner, if offered in the same auction side by side.

Collectors in their 30's with money are jumping into the hobby now, and they are all about Mantle.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by MetsBaseball1973

They are both iconic cards, loved by many collectors, but a PSA 10 Mantle 1952 Topps will blow away the price of all but perhaps the best Wagner in the world in 2016 and beyond. Heck, a 50/50 centered PSA 9 of the Mantle might do the trick.

A PSA 10 Mick may even surpass the best Wagner, if offered in the same auction side by side.

Collectors in their 30's with money are jumping into the hobby now, and they are all about Mantle.

but why????? they didnt see him play...and chances are their dad didnt either!!!!

[Pilot172000]

They may be about the Mantle, but they couldn't tell you the difference between Phil Rizzuto and Addie Joss. I simply don't adhere to the younger Generation wants newer cards theory. There is a certain mythology about certain Pre-War sets that makes them almost magical.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

but why????? they didnt see him play...and chances are their dad didnt either!!!!

Im in this age group and there is just something about Mantle. I never saw him play, obviously. But the 52 Mantle was always the card everyone dreamed of owning some day. The Wagner was never realistic, and still isn't. I can't compete with the big guys buying 6 figure cards. I do enjoy the hunt for nice looking examples of all of his cards and plan to get a nicer 52 that's within the budget soon.

My Dad was a fan when Mantle played but I don't think he saw him play in person.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

They may be about the Mantle, but they couldn't tell you the difference between Phil Rizzuto and Addie Joss. I simply don't adhere to the younger Generation wants newer cards theory. There is a certain mythology about certain Pre-War sets that makes them almost magical.

i am in this group as well.

and can tell you the difference between rizzuto and joss.

"and rizzuto is not a word. he's a ball player. you're cheating"



edit: my dad saw mantle play. did your dad's see wagner play?

[vintagewhitesox]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i am in this group as well.

and can tell you the difference between rizzuto and joss.

"and rizzuto is not a word. he's a ball player. you're cheating"



edit: my dad saw mantle play. did your dad's see wagner play?

Fine, spell buzz.

my dad saw Mantle play at old Comiskey Park. I'd take a 52 Mantle over a wagner too, if we are voting.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i am in this group as well.

and can tell you the difference between rizzuto and joss.

"and rizzuto is not a word. he's a ball player. you're cheating"



edit: my dad saw mantle play. did your dad's see wagner play?

My dad could have given a flying flip about Mantle or Wagner. He was too busy riding bucking horses and chasing steers. Good for you being able to tell the difference. You are an exception to the norm. Its just my opinion and you are free to collect what ever your daddy got to see if you want.

[Rookiemonster]

Nobody on alive today seen Wagner play so I really don't get the reference.

[rats60]

A PSA 8 Mantle sells for 500k. The PSA 8 Wagner sold years ago for 2.8 million even though it was known to be trimmed. Who knows what it would sell for today or a true PSA 8,9,10.

A PSA 5 Mantle sell for 5 figures. A PSA 5 Wagner sold for 2.1 million.

Mantles in high grade are bringing big numbers because of condition. An 86 Fleer Johnny Moore PSA 10 sells for about what a low grade Mantle does. When saying card a is worth more than card b, conditions must be equal.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by rats60

A PSA 8 Mantle sells for 500k. The PSA 8 Wagner sold years ago for 2.8 million even though it was known to be trimmed. Who knows what it would sell for today or a true PSA 8,9,10.

A PSA 5 Mantle sell for 5 figures. A PSA 5 Wagner sold for 2.1 million.

Mantles in high grade are bringing big numbers because of condition. An 86 Fleer Johnny Moore PSA 10 sells for about what a low grade Mantle does. When saying card a is worth more than card b, conditions must be equal.

I believe if there ever will be a card that matches the Wagner, it would be the Mantle Rookie. The thing is that if I want, I can afford a Rookie Mantle in much lower condition. No such Wagner exist. Then again this may be what drives the Mantle rookies. Availability must be at that Goldilocks point. Rare enough to be valuable, but available enough to be sought after.

[Huck]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

but why????? they didnt see him play...and chances are their dad didnt either!!!!

A few years back a book was penned titled "The Last Boy Mickey Mantle and the end of America's childhood" (I have not read the book). I think there is quite a bit of truth in that title. Think about it. Mantle was the postwar Super Star and played in the biggest city for a perennial championship team. As another member wrote, "there was just something about Mantle". Since 1952, things have drastically changed, perhaps even how we view our sports heroes. We have all grown up. Mantle is deceased and yet he still holds sway in the hobby.

I don't recall seeing Mantle play, definitely not live perhaps on tv. When I returned to the hobby in 1980, Mantle cards were the holy grail. Wagner was a lottery ticket. At the time, reports were that there were less than 10 Wagner cards in existence, that card was a pipe dream. Frankly, any pre 1950 card was Siberia, the card craze of the 80's was just starting to rev up with Fleer and Donruss getting back into the card game in 81. At my first card show at the VFW in Dale City, VA, I came across some T206's and found them interesting, a novelty of sorts and I purchased a card (still have) Hanifan, NJ. Mantle cards were far more attainable but I was not interested in vintage cards. Vintage cards were not readily available, new material was available at just about every store. At the time, in my area, card shows were few and card stores were even fewer. Had I known then what I know now I would have went the other way the pack was headed (new material) and concentrated on 50's and pre-war cards!

Fans have always liked the power hitters. Back then there were 10 players who had hit 50 or more home runs in a season (now there are 43). There were 14 (11 living) players who had hit more than 500 career home runs (now there are 27). Ruth, Foxx, Mays and Mantle made both lists.

In 1993, I drove 9 hours to Louisville, KY to obtain Mantle's autograph in person at a card show. What possesses a man in his thirties to drive 9 hours one way to obtain the signature of a player whose last game was in 1968? The Mantle aura.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by biohazard

A few years back a book was penned titled "The Last Boy Mickey Mantle and the end of America's childhood" (I have not read the book). I think there is quite a bit of truth in that title. Think about it. Mantle was the postwar Super Star and played in the biggest city for a perennial championship team. As another member wrote, "there was just something about Mantle". Since 1952, things have drastically changed, perhaps even how we view our sports heroes. We have all grown up. Mantle is deceased and yet he still holds sway in the hobby.

I don't recall seeing Mantle play, definitely not live perhaps on tv. When I returned to the hobby in 1980, Mantle cards were the holy grail. Wagner was a lottery ticket. At the time, reports were that there were less than 10 Wagner cards in existence, that card was a pipe dream. Frankly, any card post 1950 was Siberia, the card craze of the 80's was just starting to rev up with Fleer and Donruss getting back into the card game in 81. At my first card show at the VFW in Dale City, VA, I came across some T206's and found them interesting, a novelty of sorts and I purchased a card (still have) Hanifan, NJ. Mantle cards were far more attainable but I was not interested in vintage cards. Vintage cards were not readily available, new material was available at just about every store. At the time, in my area, card shows were few and card stores were even fewer. Had I known then what I know now I would have went the other way the pack was headed (new material) and concentrated on 50's and pre-war cards!

Fans have always liked the power hitters. Back then there were 10 players who had hit 50 or more home runs in a season (now there are 43). There were 14 (11 living) players who had hit more than 500 career home runs (now there are 27). Ruth, Foxx, Mays and Mantle made both lists.

In 1993, I drove 9 hours to Louisville, KY to obtain Mantle's autograph in person at a card show. What possesses a man in his thirties to drive 9 hours one way to obtain the signature of a player whose last game was in 1968? The Mantle aura.

ys...I kinda get it...but still? I grew up in new jersey...my dad was a yankees fan...he saw mantles whole career. I saw mantle at a few old timers games as a kid. Sure there was an aura...a mystique...but we are yankees fans!

As a kid I definitely cherished all my mantle cards...57-69. I couldnt afford a mantle rookie then...so the thought of owning one never entered my thought process. Now I can afford to own one...albeit a lower grade one at that. But now I don't really want one? Atleast not for the money they are selling for. So I get that it is an iconic card. But there are a lot of iconic cards that I'd rather own.

[Snapolit1]

Compare Mantles numbers to Gary Sheffield. Interesting indeed.

[MetsBaseball1973]

"The Last Boy: Mickey Mantle and the end of America's childhood." Read that book. Fantastic read.

There will never be another man so blessed with the looks, the talent, the name, and the serendipity to arrive at the perfect time on the perfect stage.

It all came together for him, the way we mortal men dream life will turn and unfold.

Then his sad later days, his, "Don't be like me," moment, only served to endear him to the public in a totally new and different way. The towering legend was suddenly all too human.

Of course, there are also those amazing stats. And yet they always give way to the imagination-tickling wonder of what he could have done with all that God given talent, without injury or a daily hangover.

And the cherry on top? His first Topps card is a stunning blue piece of eye candy, with a killer portrait, in the high series, with the aura of the ocean dump behind it. Even his Bowman true rookie is gorgeous, and notorious and challenging for collectors.

Ah, The Mick. He has it all!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Compare Mantles numbers to Gary Sheffield. Interesting indeed.

There's no point in comparing mantles #'s to anything!!!!! This behavior is not terribly rational. And Sheffield likely juiced!

Compare mantles #'s to MAys...if anyones...and the difference becomes black and white!

[MetsBaseball1973]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Compare Mantles numbers to Gary Sheffield. Interesting indeed.

You sound like a sophist, suggesting such a comparison. Or someone who wants a nice Mantle but can't afford it.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by Pilot172000

My dad could have given a flying flip about Mantle or Wagner. He was too busy riding bucking horses and chasing steers. Good for you being able to tell the difference. You are an exception to the norm. Its just my opinion and you are free to collect what ever your daddy got to see if you want.

i will and thank you. and hope you do the same.

enjoy collecting horse's asses and bullshit*

Originally Posted by Rookiemonster

Nobody alive today saw Wagner play so I really don't get the reference.

exactly, dustin!

* apologize in advance, but in this particular instance I do not believe this is cursing. if deemed it is, I will edit.

[ZachS]

So, getting back to the auction... there are a few different previously uncataloged Louisiana issues which has me pretty excited. I love how cards still pop up all these years later.

Oh and my dad is a mechanic and a big Yankees fan (he is originally from NY). He never saw Honus play but I'm pretty sure he could beat up your dad.

[begsu1013]

Originally Posted by ZachS

He never saw Honus play but I'm pretty sure he could beat up your dad.

oh yeah?

well your mama is so fat she broke your family tree!

[jkray25]

BOOM ROASTED!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G925A using Tapatalk

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

i will and thank you. and hope you do the same.

enjoy collecting horse's asses and bullshit*




exactly, dustin!

* apologize in advance, but in this particular instance I do not believe this is cursing. if deemed it is, I will edit.

Bless your heart.....

[ZachS]

Originally Posted by begsu1013

oh yeah?

well your mama is so fat she broke your family tree!

I'm telling Leon!!!

[Yoda]

Maybe if we could get out of somebody's family tree for a moment, I am a bit perplexed about lot 261 in the REA auction, the E98 Matty PSA 2 red bkg, already with 24 bids and a current price of $3500. What am I missing? Is the red particularly scarce? What's going on here?

[ZachS]

Not sure. Looking at some previous sales:

2013 - PSA 1.5 in Heritage - $1,553.50
2015 - SGC 40 in Goodwin - $2,962.80

I guess somebody really wants that card.

[darwinbulldog]

But why? For that kind of money you could pick up a nice E94 common: http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...e?itemid=39219

[ZachS]

[Exhibitman]

There is no need to speculate on the issue. There have to be some people here who are participants in this market. If you have enough money to spend five or six figures on a card, you can answer the question as to why you are willing to get into the market now.

As for Mantle, it isn't about Mantle the player as much as it is about the 1952 Topps Mantle. I never saw him play; doesn't matter. The iconic card from the iconic set of the post-war era is the 1952 Mantle. Lots of other RCs and high end cards are soaring right now, but the Mantle has catapulted into the realm of legendary card, joining the T206 Wagner, the Babe Ruth RC, and maybe a few others. Casual and novice collectors know the card. Same as the Wagner. There are over 2,000 slabbed 1952 Mantles, yet the demand is pushing all of them to unprecedented levels because collectors know that if they want the premiere Topps card of the era, they need that card. There are lots of rarer cards of Mantle out there but that one is the key.

The slightly broader market question as to the number of lesser cards breaking price records is simply a factor of a good economy for the people in the top ranks. Lots of excess income available to play with.

In terms of what to buy as an investor rather than a collector, the formula is the same as in any other rapidly expanding market: get in and get out, repeatedly, and either reinvest the profits or sock them away. No one knows when the end will be, but it will come. Remember the E card gold rush about ten years ago? You could make 50% on nearly any E HOFer in a few months before it petered out. As in all things the key is not to be the piggy who ends up holding the overpriced portfolio at the end. When the expansion slows--and it will--there will be people left with expensive cards that they cannot get out of at a profit or break even. I'm one of them!

The issue of PSA strictness is debatable. I'd think that for every card in a slightly overgraded PSA holder from the old days there is probably a card worthy of a half-point bump in a lower grade holder. I have a bunch of those but I just don't care because I have no interest in selling them.

The interesting thing for your basic collector like me is that the expansion of grading through entities like 4sharpcorners chasing tens has led to a crash in prices on many 1960s and 1970s slabbed cards other than 10s. I'm buying 6-7-8 slabbed cards of HOFers for my collection at prices below what they sold for 20 years ago raw:

- 1976 TOPPS #420 JOE MORGAN REDS HOF PSA 8 $7.99
- 1975 TOPPS #180 JOE MORGAN REDS HOF PSA 7 $5.59
- 1968 TOPPS #145 DON DRYSDALE DODGERS HOF PSA 7 $18.39
- 1973 TOPPS #330 ROD CAREW TWINS HOF PSA 7 $10.39
- 1975 TOPPS #70 MIKE SCHMIDT PHILLIES HOF PSA 7 $11.19
- 1976 TOPPS #500 REGGIE JACKSON ATHLETICS HOF PSA 7 $7.99
- 1980 TOPPS #270 MIKE SCHMIDT PHILLIES HOF PSA 9 $8.79
- 1969 TOPPS ALL-STAR #419 ROD CAREW TWINS HOF PSA 7 $6.39


It is even worse in hockey, football and basketball than in baseball. Look at this purchase I made recently:

- 1972 TOPPS #161 RENE ROBERT RC PENGUINS PSA 8 -$3.47
- 1974 TOPPS #250 WILT CHAMBERLAIN HOF PSA 7 -$21.74
- 1972 TOPPS #50 JEAN RATELLE RANGERS HOF PSA 8 -$3.47
- 1970 TOPPS/OPC STICKER STAMPS BOBBY HULL BLACK HAWKS HOF PSA 7 $18.26
- 1975 TOPPS #200 PHIL ESPOSITO BRUINS HOF PSA 8 $6.08
- 1975 TOPPS #297 ROGIE VACHON KINGS PSA 8 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #303 GEORGE KARL SPURS PSA 9 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #292 MEL DANIELS HOF PSA 9 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #209 O.J.SIMPSON PSA 8 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #214 ALAN PAGE PSA 8 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #160 KEN ANDERSON PSA 8 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #223 CLIFF HARRIS-JACK TATUM PSA 8 $3.47
- 1975 TOPPS #243 JEAN RATELLE PSA 8$3.47
- 1974 TOPPS #196 DAVE SCHULTZ FLYERS PSA 8 $3.47

Pack-fresh 40 year old HOFers for these prices simply because some buffoon put a different number on the flip? Crazy times...

[Snapolit1]

No interest in any Mantle cards. None.

And the market for his card is very simple. He was the hero to a lot of men who are now in their 50s and older with scads of disposable income. Academy award hosts, bankers, captains in industry. This card is their childhood. And is also appears to be a hell of an investment

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

No interest in any Mantle cards. None.

And the market for his card is very simple. He was the hero to a lot of men who are now in their 50s and older with scads of disposable income. Academy award hosts, bankers, captains in industry. This card is their childhood. And is also appears to be a hell of an investment

I think this is a fair assessment.

[Republicaninmass]

I don't know too many investors who buy at all time highs with no regard for prior sales, collectors however, are a different breed.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I don't know too many investors who buy at all time highs with no regard for prior sales, collectors however, are a different breed.

There is an inherent fear that this may be the last chance a certain collector has at a certain card and that drives the price a good bit.

[MetsBaseball1973]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

I don't know too many investors who buy at all time highs with no regard for prior sales, collectors however, are a different breed.

It's funny how the collectors who have done just that have also done wonders from a pure investment standpoint. When VCP past sales histories were being shattered at the start of this latest run, many scoffed at the prices that were then being paid. Now, those prices seem like bargains.

Sometimes one has to look at more than prior sales data, and embrace other variables, in this case how the hobby was evolving in terms of centering and its rarity in certain cards, or the influx of younger collectors now in their early 30's who were boys in the 1980's, etc.

[Snapolit1]

You have no idea in any market where the top is. I thought Google was a stupid purchase at $90 and Amazon a stupid one at $30.

[Pilot172000]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

You have no idea in any market where the top is. I thought Google was a stupid purchase at $90 and Amazon a stupid one at $30.

This is true, but at what point does the demand truly out distance the supply. I mean prices for a top tier HOF in the mid grades will seem like quality bargains once the 8s,9s and 10s get hoarded up.

[iowadoc77]

Oh, the prices of rare backs. That McGraw Lenox, how high will that thing go? Holy crap. Had hoped to own that one, but can't justify where it is at. Can't imagine where it is going... Lots of healthy (or ludicrous) bids!