What is Your Opinion About Grading?

[barrysloate]

Okay, I'm going to try and create a fair poll but I know someone will say the questions are biased. Here goes:

[Cat]

Barry: I think you need to follow this up with a poll about our opinion on grading threads!! Perhaps a poll about grading thread polls.

[barrysloate]

How about a poll on "do we have too many polls?"

[barrysloate]

Now I'm thinking that my option #3 wasn't worded correctly.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I started collecting in the era of no price guides. I still think the dumbest thing that ever happened in the hobby was the "rookie card" phenomena. Why should a rookie card be worth more than another year? It makes no sense to me at all.

As far as grading goes, if a person owns a nice card and it enhances the cards value or protects it's value for the future then I can understand having the card graded.

[Robextend]

I use TPGs primarily for protection and display. If you look at it like that, there can't be much wrong with TPG at the moment.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

How about a poll on "do we have too many polls?"

Yes, we need a poll tax. That'll curb it. Actually you could use a fifth option which is "this angst is much ado about nothing."

[barrysloate]

That fifth choice is really not a bad idea. But the first choice would be closest to it in spirit: everything is fine and just leave it as is.

[T206Collector]

...leave it exactly as is, but if I were the God of Grading I am sure I would make a few tweaks. (A few tweaks wasn't an option.)

And for whatever it's worth, most of my T206 collection is now raw.

[barrysloate]

For the sake of full disclosure, this poll is set up so that you can click on the numbers and see how everybody voted. Now everyone's little secret will be out of the bag.

[bigtrain]

I prefer my cards raw but there is certainly a need for a service to verify that cards are authentic and not tampered with.

[judsonhamlin]

I went with Number 3 - I have recently started to get some of my nicer (for me) cards graded for protection (actual and insurance) and, in the context of buying cards, there are very few dealers, with whom I have dealt with for years, whose descriptions of raw cards I trust. I also don't get in a tizzy if a card I send to SGC comes back lower than I had it "graded" in my mind.

[glchen]

I voted for option 1, but would have preferred something like TPG is a huge benefit, but could use some minor changes rather than a complete overhaul. One of my submissions to SGC popped, and I received a lot of 10/1.0 and 20/1.5 grades from sellers which described the cards as VG or better. There are just a lot of flaws in cards that those of us who buy raws without much experience don't see.

[barrysloate]

An overhaul (didn't use "complete") could be anything from minor to major.

[Fred]

Well, should we start a list of what could be changed to make things better?

First off, if things change then that puts all previously graded cards in question and it also provides an opportunity for the TPGs to make more cash for a cross-over to the "new" standards.

1 - There are really NO industry standards therefore it's kind of like comparing apples and oranges at times. Well, maybe not that bad, lets say comparing a "golden delicious" to a "granny smith" apple.

2 - Take those numerical grades and shove them. Do a job called authentication don't provide numerical grades because it's SUBJECTIVE and there's just too much room for "subjective" error. I know the registry people won't like this because then they can't claim to have "the HIGHEST" graded set or card. What a bunch of putzes... (just my opinion - sorry if I offended you because you're a putz). How the hell can a card that is graded a 10 be worth $10,000+ more than the same card that is graded a 9? Especially when the 9 could be resubmitted and someday become a 10. I guess anyone STUPID enough to unencapsulate a 10 would deserve the enormous drop in perceived value of the card that was set free from it's plastic coffin.

3 - Create two categories: AUTHENTIC and ALTERED.
AUTHENTIC would indicate the card is real and unaltered. People can build on this if they wish. Should there be "qualifiers" such as MK for cards that are marked? Should there be a CRS qualifier for cards with creases? Anything but OC because I think people can distinquish what is OC and if it's really that far OC then don't buy the card if you don't like the OC condition. Do you really need someone to tell you the card is OC? Also - NO numerical grades. Buy the card, not the number on the label.
ALTERED would indicate the card is trimmed, colored or otherwise altered. Have the grading company list the alteration on the label. If this takes more time then have the grading company CHARGE for this and if the customer doesn't want the ALT label then the card can remain unencapsulated.

[aelefson]

Hi-
Sorry for the multiple responses. I voted as hating third party grading but I feel that is a very strong word. If a card is graded I will not even consider purchasing it fo my collection. However, I am responding based on the way I feel about grading. I certainly recognize that some collectors prefer it, and might not collect without it.
I cannot really say grading, "ruined the hobby" but it has changed significantly as a result. To hear some of the comments in the other grading threads such as the number on the slab is the most important thing, is absolutely ridiculous to me. That being said, I am sure a lot of folks out there think it is ridiculous that I only buy raw, and wonder how many altered or fake cards I have in my collection.
As many folks say, collect what you like! As I have stated many other times I have never, nor do I expect to ever, purchase a single graded card for my collection.
Yours in collecting,
Alan Elefson
aelefson@hotmail.com

[barrysloate]

You know Fred, I thought about what would happen to the registry people if grading did away with those numbers. And I concluded that those guys would still be collecting and they would be enjoying it just as much. Before third party grading there were plenty of people with huge collections. And if third party grading somehow stopped the practice of assigning those poppycock numbers there would still be many big collectors out there. In that respect nothing would change. If you love it you love it.

[Leon]

Alan- I removed your double posts. No worries...


For the record BVG Does offer an authentication ONLY service for cards that are not altered in any way and they don't receive a number. The only problem is that AUT cards now have a black mark against them because of perception and a lot/most folks don't know of their service, so if you get it done folks might think something is wrong with the card when it isn't. regards

[barrysloate]

With 58 votes in roughly 60% of the voters like grading a lot or somewhat; and about 40% don't care for it or hate it. Do these numbers tell us anything we didn't already know?

[tbob]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You know Fred, I thought about what would happen to the registry people if grading did away with those numbers. And I concluded that those guys would still be collecting and they would be enjoying it just as much.

Barry, I agree with you almost all the time but do you really believe this? I think many of the registry guys are investors or guys dedicated to the "who has the biggest one" school and they would be lost without it. Not all, but many. I have some sets on the registry myself but if registries disappeared tomorrow I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

With 58 votes in roughly 60% of the voters like grading a lot or somewhat; and about 40% don't care for it or hate it. Do these numbers tell us anything we didn't already know?

Actually, I read the votes as only about 10% of people really have a problem with it as a fundamental principle. The other 90% accept it, in either this or another format.

[barrysloate]

I don't know Bob, but I am under the assumption that all these guys love collecting baseball cards on some level. Look, most of these whales bail out anyway; the attrition rate among these guys is huge. So some will cash in sooner or later. But for the many who genuinely enjoy collecting I think they would still stick around. Of course I can only guess.

[barrysloate]

Paul- I'm reading it as the top two categories are in favor of grading, and the bottom two have issues with it. As I said earlier, maybe I could have found a way to state that third choice more clearly.

[barrysloate]

So with more than 100 votes in what does the poll tell us? That collectors have a wide range of opinions regarding third party grading. Each of the four choices got quite a bit of support. If there is a plurality feeling about it it is that grading does many good things but could certainly use some improvement. What I would ask for is greater accuracy so that the grade a card receives the first time will in nearly every situation get the same grade if it is resubmitted. Everyone, thanks for playing.

[Tcards-Please]

Originally Posted by Leon

Alan- I removed your double posts. No worries...


For the record BVG Does offer an authentication ONLY service for cards that are not altered in any way and they don't receive a number. The only problem is that AUT cards now have a black mark against them because of perception and a lot/most folks don't know of their service, so if you get it done folks might think something is wrong with the card when it isn't. regards

Leon,
It would be great if BVG could distinguish between an Altered Authentic and an Authentic that would normally warrant a numerical grade. I think the easiest way to do that since they have numerous altered cards already encased is to list the ones that could receive a numerical grade as "AUT -No Alteration".

Just my .02 cents

r/
Frank

[Leon]

Originally Posted by T's please

Leon,
It would be great if BVG could distinguish between an Altered Authentic and an Authentic that would normally warrant a numerical grade. I think the easiest way to do that since they have numerous altered cards already encased is to list the ones that could receive a numerical grade as "AUT -No Alteration".

Just my .02 cents

r/
Frank

Hey Frank
Since their Director of Grading is a good board member maybe he will take it to their committee and make that happen. I see no downside and ALL updside. Next time he and I go to lunch (we go every now and then) I will ask him, and a few of their other graders, about it. Great idea...

[ChiefBenderForever]

I think many traditional collectors had a hard time accepting the whole grading thing and some never will. I know I did, but after getting screwed on many overgraded raw cards and even a few fake ones I started to pick up graded examples. At first I cracked them all out, and many people still do. Atleast if you buy a graded card and crack it out you have a pretty good idea of what the card is supposed to be. It's sad you have to buy a graded card to crack it out because you can't trust a sellers description because everyones opinion varies and all the cheeseballs out there. Now it's gotten to the point where if you don't know the seller, and the card isn't graded you have to really wonder if there is something wrong with it, esp with pre war stuff. It is what it is.

[tedzan]

Nicely done, however, your 2nd Q....."I think TPG is important but it definitely needs an overhaul".....is somewhat ambiguous.
Although, it has garnered the highest response (36%), I would not view this response as a totally affirmative support for TPG.
Due to the operative wording in this question...."definitely needs overhaul".

If all those that responded to this one were further queried, I can bet you that a certain percentage of them would revise their
vote in favor of your #3 question.

Therefore, it is incorrect (and unrepresentative) to combine the current results of Q's #1 and #2 to suggest that 53% favor TPG.

At best, this poll indicates that there is a 50-50 split of those who favor TPG versus those who have serious problems with TPG,
or downright dislike TPG.


TED Z

[ChrisStufflestreet]

I can't vote. I don't collect TPG cards and would likely free any cards I do pick up from their plastic tombs, but I don't really hate the concept. Which could mean that I've learned to live with them, but that's not an entirely accurate assessment either.

It is what it is.

[barrysloate]

Ted- I agree with you that there is some ambiguity regarding choice #2. I'm sure some who voted feel TPG only needs a few small tweaks, while others think it is a big mess- and everything in between. I didn't put a great amount of thought into the questions and only wanted to conduct the poll as a general survey. What is clear to me is a large number of collectors are not completely satisfied with it. I only hope the graders are reading this (I'm sure they are) and continue to work to put out a better product.

[teetwoohsix]

I voted for option # 1 because it is a grading service.Not only will they let you know if it's been altered,restored,trimmed,etc., they will give it a grade,according to their criteria,and slab it for you. So, I feel they have a system in place that works,for the most part. If you like raw cards, by all means, collect them that way!!! No one is forcing you to do otherwise.

Am I saying the system is perfect with no flaws? NO. As has been said before,it is people doing the grading,so of course it won't be perfect.

It seems like the biggest issues are consistency,crossovers,people not getting the grade they expected,pop reports (not being accurate),and what grading has done to the prices.I could've easily picked option #2,because they do need to improve (tweak) some things- but what else would be better than a ten point grading system? If you only used Authentic or Altered,you would still have dealers saying "this card is EX to Mint",,only to have the card arrive and be VG.There is no better safegaurd when buying over the internet than buying graded cards-and most of the stuff we collect has to be bought over the internet,or at card shows in other states.How many times do you want to get burned? If it were a perfect world,and there were no scam artists, maybe we wouldn't need anything more than a protective case,right?

There is no wrong answer on this poll,it's all about preferance.I don't always agree with a grade on the slab,or how one TPG's 4 is another's 3,etc.,but no one is forcing me to use them either.You should be buying the card and not the grade-just use the given grade as the example.And if all cards mean to you are a $$$ sign,well...................

Sincerely,Clayton

[Leon]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I voted for option # 1 because it is a grading service.Not only will they let you know if it's been altered,restored,trimmed,etc., they will give it a grade,according to their criteria,and slab it for you. So, I feel they have a system in place that works,for the most part. If you like raw cards, by all means, collect them that way!!! No one is forcing you to do otherwise.

Am I saying the system is perfect with no flaws? NO. As has been said before,it is people doing the grading,so of course it won't be perfect.

It seems like the biggest issues are consistency,crossovers,people not getting the grade they expected,pop reports (not being accurate),and what grading has done to the prices.I could've easily picked option #2,because they do need to improve (tweak) some things- but what else would be better than a ten point grading system? If you only used Authentic or Altered,you would still have dealers saying "this card is EX to Mint",,only to have the card arrive and be VG.There is no better safegaurd when buying over the internet than buying graded cards-and most of the stuff we collect has to be bought over the internet,or at card shows in other states.How many times do you want to get burned? If it were a perfect world,and there were no scam artists, maybe we wouldn't need anything more than a protective case,right?

There is no wrong answer on this poll,it's all about preferance.I don't always agree with a grade on the slab,or how one TPG's 4 is another's 3,etc.,but no one is forcing me to use them either.You should be buying the card and not the grade-just use the given grade as the example.And if all cards mean to you are a $$$ sign,well...................

Sincerely,Clayton

Hey Clayton- those are some pretty good thoughts. I voted #2 in the poll as I would like there to be some common sense applied (isn't most of grading subjective anyway) to things like the photo quality on OJ's and other photo type cards and less importance on things that can't be seen, but get dinged for, on blank backed cards. Again, I know this is subjective and it's an easy argument to say "but there is an erased mark that can only be seen at an angle on that back so it can't be a 3!!"....well, I disagree and think there could be a way to address some of those types of issues. Overall, I DO think we are better off with TPG's than without them. Otherwise we would still be getting NRMT Larry Frisch (RIP) cards with pieces missing.....as the norm.

[teetwoohsix]

It seems like buying raw cards from people you don't know over the internet is a gamble-and living in Vegas,I've learned that the odds are always in favor of the house (meaning you will win sometimes,but mostly lose ).I do not want buying cards to be a "gamble".I want to know what I'm getting,and at worst,think it should've been a grade higher or lower...........not find out this card I thought was a 4 or a 5 coming back with an A because of a trim or added color or whatever.To each their own, I feel the good TPG's provide a great( but not perfect) service.

Thanks,Clayton

Edit to add: I agree with everything you said Leon, just wanted to add that.

[barrysloate]

As Leon just posted, the way Old Judges are handled by all the grading companies is a travesty, and it's bothered me for a long time that none of them are willing to listen to collectors. A couple of years ago Leon and I made a trade and I sent him an OJ portrait card. I forget which player, but I'm hoping he saved a scan and can post it. It's the poster boy for what's wrong with the system. This card had a gem photo, 10 out of 10 quality, with virtually square corners and no surface wear whatsoever. It was a visual gem. But it had a spot of paper loss and was graded Poor! And I've seen OJ's with photos that have faded to nothing more than a blur, but because they have square corners and no paper loss, are graded EX-MT! That suggests that the sole criteria for assessing those cards was the amount of paper loss. The photo quality wasn't even a small factor, it was a zero factor.

Collectors of Old Judges hate this grading scale and refuse to accept it. There is no question a card should lose points for paper loss, because a similar example without paper loss will always be more desirable. But the heavy handed way these are handled really show a lack of understanding the issue, and the way the set is collected. And even worse, there is no acknowledgment by the graders that this issue needs to be addressed.

Leon, I hope you saved a scan.

P.S.- I know Kevin Cummings already addressed this early in this thread, but I thought I would chime in too.

[teetwoohsix]

I agree with you Barry,about the OJ's.Although I do not collect them, I see what you mean.It does seem that the TPG's are all over the place when they grade these,and this is an area they have to fix.

I have read many times that OJ collectors could care less about the grade,and this is why. Maybe the TPG's that care to read this board can take what collectors are saying and try to correct the problems.

Clayton

[barrysloate]

Clayton- I know they read the board. Let's see if any dialogue ensues. I would love to have them post and begin a discussion with collectors.

[Exhibitman]

I think it's just dandy to have but needs some improved practices on the part of certain providers.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Robextend

I use TPGs primarily for protection and display. If you look at it like that, there can't be much wrong with TPG at the moment.

My thoughts exactly. The only problem I see is in the value people put on those grades, but I'm in the minority because I prefer "character cards" with a little tobacco staining and wear verses a vintage card so nice it looks fake and boring. As such, the only improvement I would suggest is to eliminate grading, but keep slabbing for authentication/protection.

Here is a good example of bad grading. Card looks EX-MT from the front but I am sure the marker on the back limits this to a grade 4 and not a 6.

Problem is that TPG'ers have this set of definitions for grading and they don't follow them. They don't have to when we all keep paying for the grades and not the cards.

http://www.goodwinandco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=14243

[steve B]

I went with needs an overhaul. Maybe not a massive overhaul, but maybe a couple important changes and a slight expansion.

The changes?
1) have a Grading summit or whatever it took to get the big 3 together and settle on how to handle marks, paper loss, etc. I think they're all close to in line with corners and centering, but to have them grade differently because of a bit of paper loss on the back that one sees as a big problem and another sees as a small problem actually hurts everyone.
2) Maybe setup a third party as a go between for crossovers. I can see why none of them report to the others, it gives away info about a certain volume of business. so maybe go through a third party that would report them blind, no info about the crosover being done by anyone in particular. They could even track breakouts by colectors if they reported it. Doing this would make the pop reports a lot more valid.
3)Make BccG redo itself as 2,4,6, 8, 10 to make it less scammy. and do away with the traditional grades for that. Go with Awful, not so bad, kinda nice, really nice and wow!


For expansion, I think there's room for a superpremium grading service. Lets say, a slab with a panel next to the card for career stats or such. And behind that side panel a place to put a detailed report that explains the grade.

Also, the superpremium grade would be a combination of a mechanical grade - creases, %corner wear - Just the state of preservation of the cardboard and ink. Then have an aesthetic grade including stuff like centering, registration, and image quality.


I've only graded a handful of cards, and traded for one other. I can't see much value in grading 1s and 2s, I'm pretty able to tell when a card is beat.

But....Call me a putz if you must, it's fun to look at the card coming back and see that it's the best one graded. Yes, sure there are likely nicer ones out there, but just for the moment to realise you've got a card that's really that nice compared to others of its kind is pretty cool.

Steve B

[Leon]

Hey Barry
Unfortunately I didn't keep a pic of the N172. I remember the photo quality well, however. It was a very young looking player, portrait....You are correct, it had a 95/100 front and was graded 1/100.....and all of the grading companies do this, from what I can remember off the top of my head. Maybe there isn't a way they can change it this late in the game? I sort of understand that a photo "quality" is even more subjective than some other physical attributes but I still feel something can be done. I believe it takes some credibility away from the #'ing system when we see those examples. regards

[barrysloate]

If they did change it they would be good for a couple of thousand resubmissions. And isn't the resubmission an important part of their business?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

As Leon just posted, the way Old Judges are handled by all the grading companies is a travesty, and it's bothered me for a long time that none of them are willing to listen to collectors. A couple of years ago Leon and I made a trade and I sent him an OJ portrait card. I forget which player, but I'm hoping he saved a scan and can post it. It's the poster boy for what's wrong with the system. This card had a gem photo, 10 out of 10 quality, with virtually square corners and no surface wear whatsoever. It was a visual gem. But it had a spot of paper loss and was graded Poor! And I've seen OJ's with photos that have faded to nothing more than a blur, but because they have square corners and no paper loss, are graded EX-MT! That suggests that the sole criteria for assessing those cards was the amount of paper loss. The photo quality wasn't even a small factor, it was a zero factor.

Collectors of Old Judges hate this grading scale and refuse to accept it. There is no question a card should lose points for paper loss, because a similar example without paper loss will always be more desirable. But the heavy handed way these are handled really show a lack of understanding the issue, and the way the set is collected. And even worse, there is no acknowledgment by the graders that this issue needs to be addressed.

Leon, I hope you saved a scan.

P.S.- I know Kevin Cummings already addressed this early in this thread, but I thought I would chime in too.

I'm really glad this is being brought to light... and it isn't only with OJs. I have seen Goudeys side-by-side, where the out of register/unfocused image receives a significantly higher grade than a perfectly registered one. Perhaps the corners were a miniscule amount sharper, but nothing most people would even notice without a loupe (or care about). The unfocused cards were so blurry that it made you dizzy to look at them, yet they were graded (and priced) higher than their much nice counterparts. I was left wondering who would ever opt for that?

This (and the seemingly random nature of different grade criteria being applied by different graders) has turned me off to the entire process. If they could re-think and fix this (or simply slab cards as "authentic") I would be much more apt to use their services.

[E93]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Now I'm thinking that my option #3 wasn't worded correctly.

"overhaul" may be a bit strong for #2. How about just "in need of some changes"?
JimB

[E93]

It baffles my mind too how image quality seems to be irrelevant for N172 grading, particularly when it is the most important quality for the vast majority of N172 collectors. I think because of the severity of fading on some N172s, image quality is more of an issue here than on virtually any other baseball card set. However, I do not think the companies should have a completely unique set of criteria for this set. If a card has back damage, it probably should be knocked down substantially. I think with N172s, it is just an example of the market correcting itself. A strong image on a card graded SGC 10 due to back damage will sell for more than an SGC 80 that is extremely faded. At least I would pay more for it.
JimB

[barrysloate]

Jim- you're correct, "overhaul" does sound a little harsh, like replacing the body on an old car. But as we've found out people's opinions vary as to how many changes need to be implemented, so let's just say the survey is a less than perfect one. Nevertheless, we have a pretty good idea about how a large number of people think about it.