Best / Greatest baseball player ever, redux

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

As I studied the National Pastime I decided that Ty Cobb was the greatest ball player ever.

At some point I wondered if I was wrong, thinking maybe Babe Ruth was.

But after reading The Glory of Their Times, and listening to the cds (what a treasure), and after more reading from the old days, I decided Honus Wagner was the best. I still think that.

Seems that most here think Ruth was the best... This below is for those guys, from Today in Baseball... Obviously, some folks remain infatuated with the home run.

1942
Publisher A.J. Spink‚ in The Sporting News‚ reports on the result of a poll of 100 former major leaguers and managers as to who their choice is as best player of all time. Ty Cobb is the overwhelming pick‚ getting 60 of the votes cast. The remaining 42 votes are divided among 14 players: Honus Wagner(17): Babe Ruth (11); and Rogers Hornsby and Ross Youngs (2 votes each). The following players each received one vote: Lou Gehrig‚ Ed Delahanty‚ Tris Speaker‚ Joe DiMaggio‚ Mel Ott‚ George Sisler‚ Eddie Collins‚ Christy Mathewson‚ Walter Johnson‚ and Jerry Denny. Among those who reveal they voted for Cobb are Speaker‚ Collins‚ Sisler‚ Johnson‚ Al Simmons‚ Connie Mack‚ and Jack Coombs.




I did not know who Jerry Denny was, so I looked him up. Do any of you recall hearing of him (before looking up his stats)?

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Posted By: steve

Ruth was first a star pitcher, then the Bambino era followed. Should Ruth's extra credit for pitching land him in the top spot?

But, everyone knows great pitching beats great hitting (vast majority of time). That said, who was the greatest pitcher?

Satchell Paige not a bad vote.

steve

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Posted By: MurphyBrooks

Ruth. He was a dominant pitcher with two 20 win seasons under his belt by age 22, and probably would have made the HOF if he never hit a single home run. When he joined the Yankees, he not only hit more home runs than any other player in the early 20s, he hit more than any other team. You can argue Cobb or Wagner was a better hitter, but as an all around player, Ruth was greatest.

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Posted By: Anonymous

By 1942 they'd seen Ruth pitch and hit...

Look at the list of names who didn't vote Ruth first. A powerful endorsement of Cobb, and a solid denial of Ruth being first (even if you want him to be).

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Posted By: Rob D.

I'll vote for Ruth, if only to give Frank another chance to tell someone they're wrong.

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Posted By: Marc S.

the difference between Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth was that Ty Cobb averaged one extra hit per forty at-bats.

Babe Ruth got on base one more time than Ty Cobb per 25 plate appearances.

Cobb was definitely much faster than Ruth...

And the power aspect -- it is without comparison. Babe Ruth fundamentally transformed the game of baseball, whereas Cobb was "merely" the best hitter of all-time (although some here may argue that). Plus -- Ruth gave up a promising pitching career to play offense every day, and independent of their relative offenseive performances...you can look at Babe Ruth as being an integral part of the beginning of the NYY / Boston Red Sox rivalry, the oldest sports rivalry in this nation.

Finally, Cobb has (whether deservedly or not) a sometimes unsavory reputation for his actions both on-and-off the field, including the Chalmers controversy, relentless mind games, and accusations of racism.

Controversies are great -- but this is one of those topics where most of us can talk until we are blue in the face, but we will not persuade those on the other side of the fence....

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

It is Ruth in my book, due to his hitting and pitching combined. Among many Early ballplayers I think there was a grudge held against Ruth for being the catalyst for "changing" the way the game was played. I think this hurt him more than anything else.

When comparing Cobb and Wagner, I'm sorry but Cobb is just superior in so many ways, and I'm not sure how Wagner would get the nod. To be honest with you I even feel that Speaker, Lajoie were "better" than Wagner. In the Baseball card industry Wagner has achieved near legendary status when while he was a true legend of the game, and did win many more batting titles his statistics are pretty comparable to the vastly underrated Eddie Collins (how this guys stuff doesn't sell in the Lajoie or Speaker category is truly beyond me, maybe it is because he was an ugly dude?)
-Rhett

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Posted By: fkw

Babe Ruth by far....

You only need to look at one season to see

1920 Babe Ruth 54 HRs

1920 St. Louis Browns 50 HRs
1920 New York Giants 46 HRs
1920 Philadelphia A's 44 HRs
1920 Chicago White Sox 37 HRs
1920 Washington Senators 36 HRs
1920 Cleveland Indians 35 HRs
1920 Chicago Cubs 34 HRs
1920 St. Louis Cardinals 32 HRs
1920 Detroit Tigers 30 HRs
1920 Brooklyn Dodgers 28 HRs
1920 Boston Braves 23 HRs
1920 Boston Red Sox 22 HRs
1920 Cincinnati Reds 18 HRs
1920 Pittsburgh Pirates 16 HRs

Only team to have more HRs than Ruth in 1920... Philadelphia Phillies 64 HRs.
He outhomered 14 of the 15 teams in MLB

Plus he batted .376, with a .847 Slug%

And a couple years before this he was the best Left Handed Pitcher of his era. And he broke the All Time Home Run Record 500+ times. And etc. etc.

Babe Ruth was a living cartoon character.

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Posted By: Mark L

During the era of inside baseball (the so-called "dead ball era), defense, speed, strategy, situational hitting, outright trickery, and other fine things that are hard to measure played a bigger role than they did in the 20's or thereafter. And from what I understand, a shortstop was a heck of a lot more important to the outcome of a game than he has been during the era of the home run. So I tend to give a lot of weight to those oldtimers who favor Wagner and try to measure that against Cobb's amazing record and Ruth's, too. As far as I'm concerned, trying to choose among the Big Three is like looking up at the Alps and trying to figure out which one of the peaks is highest. It's just hard to tell from here.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Readdressing the Wagner/Cobb thing for a second. I seems that today that when Cobb and Wagner are included in the same set, they routinely sell for roughly the same amount of money, with Cobb maybe having the slight edge, but it is slight.

When I first began collecting in the mid 1980's there was no doubt who was king, Cobb sold for more every time (except the t206, obviously).

I found a copy of the 1981 The Sport Americana Baseball Price Guide a while back at a yard sale and I only bought it was because it was a great wrapper reference with tons of early wrappers in full color. But I can't help but look at the prices inside. 1919 Black Sox players like Cicotte, Weaver, Felsch, etc. listing as commons, Wagner cards listing for 1/2 those of Cobb and at roughly the same level as Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson. Joe Jackson listing for even less than them.

It is only recently that Wagner card's not in the t206 set have attained the status within the hobby that they currently hold.

-Rhett

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

This is one of my favorite topics to debate. I think, in large part, what makes it so interesting is that it's really hard to compare players from different eras. It would be great, also, if we had a lot of film to look at from the deadball era. Since, I've retired, I've done a ton of reading about the subject and collected a good deal of old baseball on video. I'm not big on relying overly on stats. With that said, I have a list of seven position players who I think are the best of all time: Ruth, Williams, Cobb, Mays, Wagner, Mantle, DiMaggio. I give Williams the consideration of the 5 years lost to military service; also, he was hindered by the distance to the right field stands at Fenway; and Joe D was shooting to the very deep distances in Yankee Stadium. Ruth, of course, had the short shot to right in the same park as Joe. Mays played too long and that hurt his stats. I give Mantle credit for playing injured for most of his career. Cobb's lifetime ave. is hard to ignore. Put Ted in Yankee Stadium and give him the 5 years and he'd be #1. Put Joe D in Fenway without the bad heels and he'd be #1 too. Give Joe Jackson the rest of his career and . . .

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Posted By: Jay

In my opinion Ruth was the greatest slugger and had the most innate ability of any player ever. However, none of us have ever seen Cobb or Ruth or Wagner play. The people who did thought Cobb was the best all around player ever and it is difficult to disagree. What is certain in my mind is that Cobb is currently the most underappreciated player.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I just don't want to hear revisionist (and incorrect) history that Barry Bonds was considered one of the top 5 players before he started using steroids, as he wasn't. That's an often repeated myth.

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Posted By: John Kalafarski

My father, who is 91, saw Ruth play.

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Posted By: Aaron Conyers

Interesting topic... here is a article discussing this topic. Hopefully you can view the text it is a good read. This has been in my collection for some time now. Has a nice autograph as well.

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Posted By: JimB

"Babe Ruth fundamentally transformed the game of baseball, whereas Cobb was "merely" the best hitter of all-time "

Babe Ruth just hit a lot of home runs. Ty Cobb transformed the whole game when he played. Opponents feared getting anywhere near him. He not only had the physical skills and the numbers to be feared, he psychologically intimidated his opponents. I do not want to take anything away from Ruth, but Cobb had a much larger effect on the actual play of the games he was in. There is a difference between saying, "Oh ****, is Ruth going to hit another home run." and a second basemean, or third baseman, or shortstop hoping he doesn't try to steal because they are scared.
JimB

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Posted By: Wesley

On the Glory of Their Times CD, there seemed to be a concensus among the players interviewed that Honus Wagner was by far the best player they have played with or against. When Wagner's contemporaries say he was the best they have ever seen, I think this has to hold a lot of weight.

1. Honus Wagner
2. Babe Ruth
3. Willie Mays
4. Ty Cobb
5. Oscar Charleston

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Posted By: Darren

I don't buy the "infatuated with the homerun" argument in the case of guy's like Ruth, Mays, Williams, etc. Ruth did everything.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Wesley, I agree... Wagner first. Based on what those guys said. But this article has me thinking of going back to Cobb.


By 1942 the 'voters' for TSN had seen all of Ruth, his pitching and home runs. They saw him out homer most of baseball, and change the way the game is played. They voted Cobb 1st. With Wagner strongly second over Ruth.



And Rob D, I'll take that chance to say again you'd be wrong if you go with Ruth. I'd say that along with:

Eddie Collins
Jack Coombs
Walter Johnson
Connie Mack
Al Simmons
George Sisler
Tris Speaker

That is pretty solid company to be agreeing with... guys from that American League where the Bimbo, sorry, Bambino played.

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Posted By: fkw

Ruth and Cobb were separated by only 8 years, they basically played in the same era. Wagner is from the dead ball era, but Cobb played only half his career in the dead ball era.

Cobb batted .367 career (#1 all time), Ruth with his powerful swing and slower base running speed was only .025 behind Cobb at .342 (#7 all time).

You could say Cobb intimidated other players with his dirty play, but no way did he intimidate the pitcher more than Ruth did at the plate. Ruth almost singlehandedly turned the Yankees of the 1920's - early 1930's into the best team of All Time, Cobb teams didnt come in first for his last 18 years in the league and might have lost more game than they won overall.

MVP of All Time = Babe Ruth!

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<Babe Ruth just hit a lot of home runs. Ty Cobb transformed the whole game when he played. >>

How can you say that, Jim? Babe had over 2,000 hits that were not home runs. As I said previously, from a hitting perpsective, their qualitative difference was that Cobb had one extra hit every forty-at-bats. To this day, Babe Ruth still has the tenth highest batting average of all-time. Just because he hit a lot of home runs does not take away what a brilliant hitter he was. And as I think others here have done more eloquently than I, Babe Ruth's power transformed the entire game of baseball -- helping teams focus on the something more important than simply getting on base. Yes, Babe Ruth made the home run the pinnacle of baseball -- but you can argue that slugging percentage, OPS, Runs Created, etc. are all statistics that exist today to assess relative offensive prowess....stastics that only serve to highlight, retrospectively, how phenomenally awesome Ruth was.

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Posted By: LetsGoBucs

Well somehow replied to PSA .5's in the wrong thread and since I need to edit....

I vote for Honus Wagner. And the reason - he played for the Pirates and I'm a Pirate fan.

And he was the greatest shortstop ever, including in the field...with a glove that is small than some of the mittens I wore when I was three years old!!!

The Flying Dutchman!!!!


I must admit though that Ruth has something that no one else is remotely close to - excellent pitcher and super great hitter. Its almost unbelievable.

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

I think it is impossible to pick the "best" (most skilled) baseball player ever, because of the difficulty of comparing across eras. But Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, and Willie Mays stand out as clear choices for the best players of their respective eras. So I would pick them as the three best of all time. For players active today, perhaps Alex Rodriguez will ultimately go down in history the same way, but the era isn't over yet.

In terms of the greatest figure of all time, the brightest star, the one who made the biggest and most lasting impact on the game and who symbolizes the game of baseball for everyone around the world, how could you pick anyone other than Babe Ruth.

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Posted By: Mike

The argument should me who is number two. Nobody is close to the Babe.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Of Cobb, Mays and Ruth it is notable that Mays was the only 5-tool player, in that he was by far the best fielder of the bunch.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

You cannot ignore the pitching. It makes him the most complete player ever. In my book a player who has top tier HOF stats in the field and had a HOF-potential career as a pitcher cannot be considered anything except the best to ever play the game.

The argument that others voted Cobb or Wagner best so they must be best is a logical fallacy all too common in contemporary argument. Unless you know the basis for the votes and the qualifications of every voter, you have no idea what lays beneath the vote.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: steve

Most of the time -

Great pitching beats great hitting.

Where are the votes for pitchers?

Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, and my pick mentioned earlier -
Mr. Satchell Paige

steve

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I agree with you. If Walter Johnson was the best pitcher, he has to be given due consideration.

I actually think Rickey Henderson had the potential to be a top 5, perhaps top 3. He needed fewer injuries, more consistency and better fielding.

I notice the 1998 Sporting News Top 100 went #1 Ruth, #2 Mays, #3 Cobb, #4 Johnson. I'll go along with that, if not in the exact order.

Duly note that this 'Pre-Roids' list had Bonds at #34 (and Rickey Henderson at #51). I just get tired of people saying Bonds was considered one of the top 3 before he used PEDs, when he was not. Though this list obviously ranked him as an all-time great. It's also interesting that the poll lists Mark McGwire as #91, the list made just after his record year.

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Posted By: Paul S

We all know the difficulty in comparing dead ball to live ball eras. But consider, Ruth has the distinction of shining in both. An incredible dead ball pitcher and an incredible live ball hitter (begs the questions: What if Ruth the pitcher faced Ruth the batter? Would the universe implode?) Except, he was so incredible as a dead ball hitter he'd already began the transition before the live ball era.

It was good to see Al Simmons name on a list earlier in the thread. He had four consecutive years that would rival anybody. But if you then look at Ruth's stats...it's just mind boggling. If I was staring a team today, The Babe would be my first pick, for any era. He's a game-changer as a pitcher or a batter. My best chance to win.

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Posted By: Mark L

http://ballhype.com/video/babe_ruth_vs_walter_johnson_1942_benefit_game_news reel/

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Posted By: Richard S. Simon

There are valid reasons for all these picks but the only true five tool player of all these mentioned, and in my opinion the greatest player ever, is Willie Mays.
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: Mark L

I have nothing against Willie Mays. He's the only one of these players whom I ever saw and I think he is right up there. But if having 5 tools is the ticket, then I think that's an argument that helps Wagner in this contest.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

At the top, in the TSN recap, Al Simmons didn't receive a vote. He did get to vote himself, and he told TSN that he voted for Cobb.

Almost the same thing for Walter Johnson... he received one vote, and he told TSN that he'd voted for Cobb.


Having seen all that Ruth could do, in 1942 the ballplayers voted for Cobb. 2 voted for a pitcher, one for Mathewson, one for Johnson.

I don't think they were voting 'tools', or 'all around', and I'm fairly confident that most of them didn't care for Cobb as a person. But golly, when they vote for THE BEST PLAYER,

60% Ty Cobb
17% Honus Wagner
11% Babe Ruth
2% Rogers Hornsby
2% Ross Youngs

and 10 players got 1%, or one vote each.

These guys hadn't seen Willie Mays... I saw him. A great player. But not The Greatest.

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Posted By: Cashews

i feel like it has to be ruth. babe forever changed the game single handedly and was above and beyond any player anyone had ever seen. he added a whole new dimension to the game and was seen as a larger than life folk hero, a lot like mickey mantle but to a much larger degree. not only did he demolish pitching, but he excelled at it as well. so in my mind if you were talking about the greatest all around player to ever play the game there is no doubt that it has to be ruth.

if we're purely talking about the greatest hitter to ever play the game then i don't think you can count out rogers hornsby or george sisler. sisler hit 400 twice with a high of 420 in 1922. that is absolutely incredible because it came after the dead ball era and matches cobb's high which came during it. hornsby hit 400 3 times in 4 years and in his prime was an incredible power hitter.

if we're just talking about the greatest "hitter" in terms of batting prowess then i don't think you can ignore joe sewell. he was undeniably the greatest contact hitter ot all time and never struck out more than 20 times in a season.

i love these discussions.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

You still don't know who they were, how they chose, or whether they were even mentally competent at the time of the vote. Some of these voters were the same tools responsible for HOFers Jesse Haines, George Kelly and Rabbit Maranville. Their current incarnations have given golden gloves to players who didn't even play 100 games at the position. Again, a vote isn't good for anything except picking the winner of the particular contest. If you want to prove a fact, argue facts, not someone else's interpretation of some unknown set of facts.

Ruth and Williams are basically neck and neck as the most productive, non-druggie, hitters of all time. Ruth was a crisp fielder with a great arm and a HOF caliber pitcher. In his breakout performances at eah position he set the consective shutout innings record in the world series and hit more home runs by himself than any other team in the league. He was incomparable.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: howard

I'd like to know who the two schnooks were that voted for Ross Youngs.

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Posted By: Cashews

ross youngs was an unbeliveable player. he's one of my favorite anonymous HOFers. john mcgraw himself said he was the best outfielder he ever saw. youngs met a tragic end and died way too early. i liken him to addie joss and his tragic life.

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Posted By: Fred C

Babe!

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Posted By: DD

I think it's Ruth over Cobb. Babe's OBP, slugging, RBI's, etc., are all better than Cobb's.

If I had to pick 3 hitters:

Ruth
Williams
Musial

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Posted By: Phil Garry

I would go with Ruth, mainly because of the pitching/hitting combo like many others have stated.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

First, I do not trust any poll taken now, or in 1942. A poll can be conducted (or manipulated) to achieve any desired result.

With that said....Honus Wagner was an active part of the Baseball scene till 1951 as a Coach for Pittsburgh. He was obviously,
a great all-around player; and, a very gregarious fellow. He would light up a cigar and "hold court" with the Pirates' players (or
with the Sports media). Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth were out of the Baseball scene for many years by 1942. People's memories grow
dim; so, one could imagine that Wagner was still fresh in their minds. In recent years, he is remembered more for his "mythical"
T206 card than his baseball career.

Comparing Cobb and Ruth, all I can say is that during Ruth's pitching years (1914-1919), Mr. Cobb did not fare too well batting
against this young Southpaw. And, you can compare their statistics till you turn "blue". However, from a Team's standpoint,
the following statistic tells the story of why Ruth is the "Greatest"......besides his prodigious HR's.

During his playing years (1918-1935), Ruth produced on an average 2.3 RUNs per GAME (scored, or driven in). Ruth consistently
did this day in and day out for 18 years. Just imagine the opposing teams, knowing that they had to score at least 3 runs every
day, just to overcome this "Ruth Factor". This a significant statistic that shows the true value of a player to his team; and, no
other BB player compares with Ruth on this score....it is the best in the history of the game.

A sportswriter once pointed out to Ruth "that Cobb was the better hitter, since he batted .367". To which Ruth resplied with.....

"You know, I could bat .370 if I wanted to, but you see all these people sitting in the stands, they didn't come out here to see
me hit Singles....they came here to see me hit Home Runs".

In the 20th Century, America was blessed with these three great human beings......

TEDDY ROOSEVELT

THOMAS ALVA EDISON

and

GEORGE HERMAN RUTH

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Shouldn't this thread really be "Greatest MAJOR LEAGUER ever" instead of greatest "player"?

-Ryan

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The original dimensions of Yankee Stadium when it was opened in 1923 were larger than the dimensions in the post-war era.
Here are the distances to the stands in the 1920's....

281.....LF foul line

400.....Left-left Center

460.....Left-center Center

490.....Center Field

430.....Right-center Center

370.....Right-right Center

295.....RF foul line


To sluggers, like Ruth and Mantle no distance was long enough. Ruth's longest HR was measured to be 600 feet and Mantle's
longest HR was measured to be 565 feet.

Anyhow, I fully agree with you regarding Ted Williams....he was one of my favorites when I was a kid.



TED Z

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Posted By: Jay

I saw most of Willie Mays' career and I never thought he was even the best player of his time. He is another guy who, like fine wine, has improved with age. The played 22 years so his aggregate numbers are impressive. However, in his 22 seasons he hit under .300 in 12. He averaged 86 RBIs per seasons along with 35 HRs and 15 stolen bases. Obviously a great player but very far from the best ever.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

George Herman "Babe" Ruth


next question...

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Posted By: Jason L

compare his peak and his career numbers to anyone and I think you will be surprised at how strongly he matches up.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Yeah, those two 20 win seasons (exactly 20 in each) really blow you away. Maddux is definitely great, but even if you're just comparing peak years, Pedro was far better than Maddux. Neither belongs in the discussion of who was the greatest pitcher ever.

But "best peak years" and "greatest pitcher ever" are not the same thing. Otherwise, most would consider Sandy Koufax the greatest pitcher ever.

To be clear, are you actually saying that Greg Maddux is better than Walter Johnson?

-Ryan

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Jason- do you happen to live in the state of Georgia, by any chance?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

...led the league in hitting 11 times, slugging percentage 8 times, on base percentage 7 times, on base + slugging percentage 10 times, hits 8 times, doubles 3 times, triples 4 times, Home Runs once, RBI 4 times, and stolen bases 6 times. .366 lifetime BA and 4000 hits.

In 1909, Cobb led the league in batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, runs, hits, total bases, home runs, RBI, and stolen bases. And he obviously won the Triple Crown.

I'm not sure anyone has ever had a year as relatively good as Cobb's 1909.

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Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Ruth.....1921

AB's.......540
Hits.......204
BB's.......144
HR's.........59
Runs......177
RBIs.......171
BAvg.... .378
SAvg.... .846

No comparison, JEFF.....forget Cobb.....Ruth is the man....he is the GREATEST.

Ruth had 2873 Hits....and, if he wasn't WALKED 2056 times (all-time BB record), perhaps he would have had 4000 hits.