Cheatriots At It Again....

[Ladder7]

When did we start relying on our honorable, unbiased press to determine guilt. I must have not been paying attention in class. Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt. Until then, the appropriate punishment be dished out.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

When did we start relying on our honorable, unbiased press to determine guilt. I must have not been paying attention in class. Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt. Until then, the appropriate punishment be dished out.

What country have you been living in? I could list examples all day, but I'll just post the most obvious, the situation that Penn State football has just gone through. There's no innocent until proven guilty. There is no requirement of proof of guilt beyond any standard.

If you live in the USA, then you obviously weren't paying attention in class. Those standards only apply to our criminal justice system. Any where else those standards do not apply. You must be living under a rock or never watch or read the news, because people are convicted in the court of public and punishments applied regularly. I am amazed that someone living in this country could post the above, but then this is the internet.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Mistakenly, I believed the country I grew up in, is committed to a trial before ruling on guilt.

LOL! This isn't the criminal court system. What trial? The proof is all there, they're just finishing up the investigation. Then, Goodell will hand out the punishment. Expect it to be harsh.

Originally Posted by rats60

I am amazed that someone living in this country could post the above, but then this is the internet.

Agreed.

[yanks12025]

Sorry but I gotta chime in here. Patriots fans or pretty much most of New England fans(mainly Red Sox and patriot fans) have to be the biggest hypocrites in all of sports. The patriots have been caught cheating not once but TWICE!!!!

11 of their 12 balls were deflated on purpose. It has already been proved by experts that the weather couldn't deflat them! So patriot fans, why don't you stop making stupid excuses for your team and admit they're cheaters. Really Bill or Tom should be suspended for the Super Bowl but the NFL is sweeping this whole thing under the rug till after the big game. No way should a investigation take two weeks, they just want to punish you guys after the game.


I really hope the patriots don't win the super bowl because it would be a joke to the NFL and to all America sports. Not sure how anyone can view Bill or Tom as a role model because they're nothing but liars and cheaters.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Lots of opinions being offered about how big and blatant a 2 psi difference is, etc, but wouldn't it be fun to do a blind psi test of footballs and see if people could actually easily identify a 11 psi ball, compared to a 12 or 13.

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

[nolemmings]

Patriot-hating is not on most people's minds as much as the Pats fans would like to think. You love yourselves a lot more than others hate you.

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

It's hard to believe that Troy Aikman, John Madden, Kurt Warner. et al. are all jealous of the Patriots' success or "hate" them for some reason when they state the quarterback had to know what was going on, and Mark Brunnell looked far more hurt than angry in saying he could not believe Tom Brady.

I'm still at a loss as to why they held those pressers at all. It is almost borderline hubris to think that they would put an end to the matter or even really slow the story's momentum, especially since Brady knew beforehand that his answers were going to be simple denial--denial that he had to believe his peers would find not credible, unless he truly thinks he is beyond public inquiry and potential scorn. A real head scratcher for me.

[GoldenAge50s]

Very well stated, and much more tactful than my comments (sorry Fred).

Not a problem Todd! I don't take internet chatter too personally no matter what is said, just wanted to put in my support for the Patriots regardless how others feel.

[Runscott]

Thanks Todd - tact is not normally my strong suit. Agreed on the reaction of ex-NFL qb's. Brunnell really did look hurt. I was also surprised at Aikman's response. As far as Brady's press conference attitude - if he is lying, then there is no other way to take it than that he feels he is beyond reproach. But look at ARod, McGwire, Braun, Lance Armstrong. All of these athletes seemingly should have known they would eventually be caught, and to us 'normal folks', honesty up-front was a no-brainer approach to the fix each was in. But do we have ANY examples of a pro athlete who has been truthful before the proof was shown? I can't think of s single one.

We discussed deflate-gate over pints at the pub last night and an old(er) geezer had the best comment: "some guy with the Pats carries a needle, pops it in and deflates the balls - how hard is that?" It made me wonder - how similar was the psi in the 11 balls? If pretty much exact it would lead you to believe that the equipment manager was a pro at this - pop in the needle for x seconds, move to the next one, etc. If not for Aikman and Brunnell's reactions, I would assume that it's so easy, and so beneficial to the teams, that more would be doing it.

[HRBAKER]

I think there's some truth in both sides of this. I think the vitriol is greater than it would be bc it involves the Patriots. The winning, the previous nefarity, the smug, arrogant, irascible Head Coach and the the pretty boy QB with the supermodel wife. It's the same dynamic that makes the arrows slung at Barry Bonds much greater than the ones at Mark McGwire - the smug/arrogant/a**holish behavior.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Fran Tarkenton phone interview...

http://video.foxnews.com/v/400569367...#sp=show-clips

[Ladder7]

This has been a hilarious and hideous week for all. People are just nutso -Admittedly, I'm no different.

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first. I know few do but, I choose to await the league's opinion/recommendation/sentence and not impune before the investigation is complete.

It's like trying to reason with a rabid Kim Jong il/un here. I'm tired of hearing "haters gonna hate" from our fans too. Everyone of us should want to know the specifics of what went down (pun intended).

One thing I do know, The cartoons and texts I've been getting are clever as Hell -from both camps. Just received another as I'm typing this -Hernandez loading a glock or something sick. Well, hope there's a decision soon. Until then, LGP!

(Now when the heck is baseball starting?)

[yanks12025]

http://youtu.be/aHukC_yH7Ys


Watch this video.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

To the Hatriots fans or those that think we all should abandon our team. I want to know who ordered the "code red" first.

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Nobody thinks that you should abandon your team. Where are you coming up with this stuff? We just said that the Patriots were caught cheating and they need to be punished.

You sound really bitter. Are you like this in real life, or is this just your internet persona?

Thanks for your concern. No, just disappointed in the close-minded... I'm sitting on a lounger beneath a palm tree, over looking the ocean. Waiting for paychecks to arrive. Bitter?.. Hardly.

Belichick just came on, talk later!

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Thanks for your concern. No, just disappointed in the close-minded... I'm sitting on a lounger beneath a palm tree, over looking the ocean. Waiting for paychecks to arrive. Bitter?.. Hardly.

Belichick just came on, talk later!

"close-minded?" Pull another palm leaf over your eyes.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Ian, my comments as to whether or not 11 out of 12 balls could deflate that much naturally, weren't my own opinion.

There was an article in yesterday's Seattle Times where a woman who made 70 NFL balls a day for Wilson was interviewed. She worked there for 48 years. According to her, "When it leaves our factory, they may have trouble with a bladder every once in a while with losing some air, but when they have 11 out of 12 balls losing air, it's not Wilson's fault." The only way to remove that much air that quickly would be to put a needle in the valve and let the air seep out, said Kevin Murphy, who runs the American football division at Wilson. Wilson, he said, goes to great lengths to ensure the NFL balls do not leak, even in extreme heat or cold. Every ball has a special three-ply urethane bladder inside, and during production the balls are filled with 100 pounds of air pressure, then deflated to 13 pounds of pressure.

I think Brady stuck his foot in his mouth by repeatedly stating that he prefers 12.5, but that he can't tell the difference between 10.5 and 12.5. Perhaps the blind test you describe should be tried - you would think someone out there would have done that by now, just to draw attention to their blog.

I in no way doubt someone let air out, and think it was most likely done per Brady's preference. I was just curious if people would be aware, to the touch, of the different pressures they're shouting about. Not even saying they wouldn't (though Huard quote was interesting), but could you pick an odd ball or two out of 24, or tell if all 12 were under inflated? I have always preferred a lightly under inflated ball, but have NO idea what psi they were ever inflated to. Footballs say- "inflate to 13 lbs", but never once have I seen a psi gauge on a ball pump, so I personally have little/no true point of reference. As an aside, if you want to feel a difference, hold some of the various college and HS that have been used over the years, on all other levels including major D-1. These ball variations have not set a tone of uniformity in football as a whole. The difference between the old Wilson 1001 and 1005 collegiate ball was crazy (it reminded me of the crazy -5, vs normal -3 metal bats used in college back then)... and Wilson is not the only game ball supplier.

I agree Brady's stated preference of 12.5 psi makes him look bad as he tries to deflect this... just as would Rodgers' known preference for highly inflated footballs if his were found to be over inflated. My guess would be Brady wants a little air let out in wet/cold weather. I still think this has been blown way way out of proportion, especially considering how all the custom ball prep (I'm sure often including softness or hardness based on inflation) has been a non issue, and has been "enforced" as such. As said, if the league wants to go the route of the "K" ball with game balls, and supply all game balls, then this sort of doctoring should be a big deal. Until then, I can't justify getting upset about something no one really cared about, or cared to enforce.

Oddly enough, my dad got me a college ball for my birthday years ago when I was in HS. I never even used it (was saving it until my old one was worn out) but within a year of so, the bladder had failed and it wouldn't hold air. I definitely don't think this is at all the case with the Pats, but know those things can go bad. Still have that ball stashed away.

[nolemmings]

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by Runscott

"close-minded?" Pull another palm leaf over your eyes.

Runs, My apology. I was addressing the other fella. Unless you're together?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

Runs, My apology. I was addressing the other fella. Unless you're together?

Thanks for enlightening me on how discussion forums work. We are all allowed to respond to the OP, but not comment on anyone else's responses.

But to respond directly to you - yeah, it's a conspiracy, and we are all "together". You know - since we think the Patriots might be guilty - we are therefore Patriot haters.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Todd, you just hate the Patriots. I'm so disappointed.

[Ladder7]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Thanks for enlightening me on how discussion forums work. We are all allowed to respond to the OP, but not comment on anyone else's responses.

But to respond directly to you - yeah, it's a conspiracy, and we are all "together". You know - since we think the Patriots might be guilty - we are therefore Patriot haters.

"Might" be guilty. There's hope afoot! I hope the rest of the gallery are as enlightened. It sure was for me - the Belichick conference that is... Well, I've got to prepare for a Super Bowl. Play nice on your device now. Toodles ladies. And gentlemen

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Ladder7

"Might" be guilty. There's hope afoot! I hope the rest of the gallery are as enlightened. It sure was for me - the Belichick conference that is... Well, I've got to prepare for a Super Bowl. Play nice on your device now. Toodles ladies. And gentlemen

Enjoy the game. I ordered my official super bowl viewing shirt yesterday

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

This just gets crazier. Belichick Thursday: "I have no explanation for how these footballs could have been deflated". Today: "We have conducted an internal investigation and I have a scientific explanation". Really, why didn't you share that information Thursday, when you answered every question with "I've told you everything I know"? Why even have a presser Thursday if an investigation was about to be completed and you would then have your answer? Again, these are not pressers already scheduled to occur where the questioning turns to this subject--these are pressers that the Pats themselves called and orchestrated, giving carefully-crafted statements and essentially ducking follow-up questions. They look like buffoons.

Reinforces your earlier point, the response is worse than the crime.. And their response has been awkward to say the least. Saw bits of his presser today, I think saying they didn't have hands on balls from the time they were prepped/measured until game time. Like Scott said though, all you need is the needle to let air out.

Still, not at all upset with Pats if they did this, and deflate-gate is still stupid.

[pgellis]

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by pgellis

So it's OK with you that they broke the rules and cheated?

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

If the league had cared at all about this rule in its history, they'd simply supply all game balls, that meet their required specs... They don't (nor does any level of football), and so teams/QBs/staff have been more or less allowed to this stuff forever, probably without really considering it's being "cheating" (should the base coach have a guilty conscience?). Going forward, I'm guessing this changes though, which I also think is lame because I'm 100% fine with QBs being given some leeway on the feel of the footballs they use. But I think with all the attention, this will become something that becomes more rigidly enforced. All other teams, be happy your team wasn't the one this blew up on.. Packer fans, be happy Rodgers didn't get caught with a 14 psi ball, simply because no one had ever cared to check... And Peyton Manning fans, be ready to see your QB launch even more ducky looking ducks.

[itjclarke]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of cheating. I think spygate was really bad, as was what the Saints did, but I also don't think that secretly filming practices or listening in on coordinators/visiting locker rooms was a generally accepted practice. Just because it's in a book doesn't mean that some rules violations are far less serious than others.

Love Pete Carroll- "it's serious for them" comment. My gut tells me inside he's probably thinking, who cares but better them than us.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Just pulling an example off the top of my head.. But is it ok with you that base coaches rarely stand in their allotted box? Step outside that box, you can theoretically try to get a better angle to steal signs, or catcher location, or get closer to talk to your batter, or read lips, or whatever. As is though, everybody does it, no one cares, and no one enforces it, so the people doing it probably don't feel like they're cheating. I think the similar applies here, and am surprised by how fired up people are getting.

Base coaches aren't hiding - they are right there in the open and could be told to get back in their box. If you are saying that everyone knows that quarterbacks are having air let out of their balls, then I would agree with you, but the quarterbacks we have heard from so far are not saying that at all.

The best example I can think of is corked bats or spitballs. Tim Hudson still throws spitballs and I'm sure the league knows it and has decided to ignore it. But it's cheating. <== blatant product advertising as I own a documented Hudson spitball

[pgellis]

Ian, here's the big difference here.....do QBs alter game balls before the game? Yes. But once the game officials check them prior to kickoff, 99% of QBs and/or teams do not then go back to those balls and make them illegal again. That is what is being accused here.
Does Aaron Rodgers prefer over-inflated footballs? Supposedly, but he said he's disappointed when the officials take air out of them to make them legal. He doesn't then go back and mess with them again.

And this has not been going on forever. Before 2007, I believe, the home team supplied all the balls. Do you know who pleaded with the Competition Committee to change the rule to allow each team to supply their own footballs? You got it, Tom Brady.

Must have been cheating all along.

[steve B]

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money

Steve B

[rats60]

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting discussion.

Here's where I'm at on it.

I'd still like to know if the process used to check pre-game was simply handling the balls as the former ballboy from another team said. Or if decently accurate equipment was used.

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Do I think the team had someone deflate the balls in front of both teams, the press, officials, and anyone else in the stadium? Not really. Do I think the Pats might have inflated them in a hot environment knowing they'd be under by gametime? Yeah, that I can see happening.

And that IS a bit shady. But also within the current rules as they're written.

I think Scott was pretty accurate in his earlier reply to me. We'll have to wait for the NFL to figure out what went on. I think the team will be found to have done something and will probably be heavily fined even if what was done violates the spirit of the rule but didn't actually violate it as written.

I also think the rules will be changed in the offseason. Maybe each team will provide half the balls scuffed and the refs will do the inflating and someone will exercise tighter control over them. Maybe the league will provide the balls so everyone will be using the same ball. And specifying a temperature range should be part of the rule.
I forget if I mentioned it here or in the other thread, but at the very least they'll probably put tamper evident seals over the valve.

Or we can all join PG and get out the torches and pitchforks before we really know what happened. Unless somehow he does actually know what happened. With such omniscience I'd head to Vegas instead of hanging out here. A few hours and I'd have a lot more card money

Steve B

I think we'd all like whatever you are smoking.

[itjclarke]

Phil- I expect most/all QBs would object to anything the league does or did to limit their ability to mess around with balls, and though Tom Brady may have lead this previous charge, I doubt he's an exception. I do feel like the league, being super reactive these days, is gauging how to act based on the media response. If this doesn't blow over, during the off season I expect them to change the way game balls are handled, and in turn expect QBs to object (however objecting in a way that won't make it look like they over doctor their game balls).

I think it's also unfair to make the conclusions about what Brady "did" and what Rodgers "does not do". I earlier said I think Brady probably did something, but did so knowing no one really cares... I'm actually now starting to consider things in line with what Steve B said. The Ball is inflated at 70+ degrees, then spends 2 hours outside at 40, it will lose some pressure. Brady likes the ball at 12.5, while Luck apparently likes it at 13.5.. so if Brady's ball deflates at all, he's technically in violation of the rule, while Luck has a 1 psi cushion. I hear the claims the Pats balls were 2 psi low were also not confirmed, but media types are reporting it as fact (love modern journalistic integrity). I also just heard there are ways to treat a ball prior to the game that will create higher pressures for a short period (while being measured), but will then drop later. If truly possible, would doing this be a rules violation, or is it just getting as close to the edge as possible? Doubt there's anything in the rules that cover this.. and it seems just about everything in the NFL will take things as close to the edge as possible- see Seahawks DB play, or any D lineman line up as close to offside as possible.

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule... but media types got hold of it and made it a big deal. I think most anyone who played the pro game, off record and without being influenced by this current story, would not think this was a really big deal.

Some media outlet, or the league, or the Pats need to take some footballs inflated to 12.5 psi, put them in a fridge for 2 hours+, then measure drop in pressure. I would love if there was a noticeable drop, or if there is any other simple/logical explanation and then maybe everyone would just shut up!!! Regardless, of ball psi, I'd be nearly certain to say Peyton Manning and Ben Roethlisberger wearing sticky gloves on their throwing hands has a far greater effect on grip than air pressure (as would major college teams using totally different balls).

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

ADDING: just read a little Peter King snippet saying a 1-2 psi difference was just about imperceptible, and even at 10 psi the football still felt hard (makes me wonder what psi on those semi soft game balls we used in HS was??) Admittedly I'm annoyed at myself for getting sucked in, and don't like Peter King, but glad he wrote this... and think if tested, the loudest of media blowhards would probably fail miserably trying to identify the under inflated balls in a batch of good ones.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think we'd all like whatever you are smoking.

I think he was smoking some solid logic

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by steve B

Today I read an article about a science guys take on it. And I think he may have the answer. The one I posted earlier about the pressure reducing from temperature was based on going from around 70 degrees to around 50. (Gametime temp was low 50's and settled into the upper 40's by the end of the game NOT the drastic change claimed. ) The scientist basically said the same thing. Except that he added that the rules didn't mention a temperature, making the rule vague. He went on to say that if the balls were inflated in for instance the sauna the temperature difference between then and the field was easily large enough to make the difference. And that because the rules don't state a temperature it would probably be legal. Not particularly honest, but within the rules.

Inflated in a sauna?

Ok, I'll bite. Let's say they were inflated in a sauna. Why wouldn't the ball boy (or whoever inflated them) just come out and say so? As you state, it would probably be within the rules, so why wouldn't they just fess up instead of having all this doubt and suspicion cast on Tom Brady?

Your Patriots are cheaters. Pull your head out of the sand and just admit it. They will be fined and lose a first round draft pick at a minimum, but I hope it's a lot more harsh than that.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

solid logic

The sauna theory is 'solid logic'?

If the balls were in the sauna only for a short amount of time (just the time it would have taken to inflate them), then that's not long enough for the hot temperature to really effect the PSI. If they were in the sauna for an extended amount of time, they would be wet from the steam and the refs would have questioned a wet football (a wet football doesn't dry out quickly).

You Cheatriots fans are really grasping for straws at this point. I don't blame you though. I'm sure it's a hard fact to swallow that the team you grew up loving to root for has to cheat to get a competitive advantage.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The sauna theory is 'solid logic'?

If the balls were in the sauna only for a short amount of time (just the time it would have taken to inflate them), then that's not long enough for the hot temperature to really effect the PSI. If they were in the sauna for an extended amount of time, they would be wet from the steam and the refs would have questioned a wet football (a wet football doesn't dry out quickly).

You Cheatriots fans are really grasping for straws at this point. I don't blame you though. I'm sure it's a hard fact to swallow that the team you grew up loving to root for has to cheat to get a competitive advantage.

I'm not a Pats fan and definitely didn't grow up loving and rooting for them, when I had a multiple SB championship team in my own backyard. I also do not think the "sauna" example was to be taken literally. However let's say for example you could fill a ball with heated air. Seems this could increase/inflate air pressure until the air cooled and would guess it's not be specifically against the rules. In today's presser, Bellichek said the players do something during the prep process which increases pressure by about 1 psi, which is at 12.5 when given to the refs. Whether this is due to heat generated through rubbing, scraping... I've even heard rumor hitting it with a hammer will increase pressure, I guess assuming the flexing bladder will generate heat... if true, could possibly explain why the ball's air pressure was lower by half time on a cold day. I doubt any of this is specifically against the rules.

If the refs did their job, they checked the balls out at 12.5 psi, and the Pats didn't get the balls back until reaching the field. If they let air out after that point, though easy to do, I'd expect a camera to have caught it. We'll see, but my guess is there will be no conclusive video evidence. My first reaction was to assume the Pats did something. I just didn't care because I think the league/refs don't truly care, as they allow teams to work their game balls (refs just topped the balls off at half, didn't do anything otherwise!). After digging into it a little deeper, I am now in the camp that thinks maybe the Pats really didn't do anything specifically to take air out. I hope that is the case and I hope this story just dies out. It's overblown, overplayed, tired, and reeks of a witch hunt. Though it seems it would disappoint a lot of people if the Pats don't get theirs. That said, if they do get busted, I won't lose any sleep over it... and I still consider Tom Brady one of the greatest (maybe top) QBs ever.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I think he was smoking some solid logic

Take off your tin foil hat.

At least there's a bit of reality in your post . THE NFL Has Caught THE Patriots cheating again and they have leaked the story to gauge public reaction before they decide what to do. They don't want another Ray Rice black eye where they try to sweep this under the rug.

The nfl already did that once during Spygate where they destroyed the evidence without making it public. The bottom line is that the Patriots season will be tainted because of this and Brady and Belichick's legacy will be that of cheating.

Your conspiracy theory is ridiculous. It doesn't account for the one Pat ball and 12 Colts balls that were not underinflated. How can the Pats have 11 balls be 2 psi under and the other 13 balls not? How can this have never been an issue in below zero games, but is in a 50 degree game? All the junk science can't explain this away. The laws of science apply uniformly. The Pats don't have magic balls that perform differently than the other 31 nfl teams.

[steve B]

Nothing, now get back to class before you flunk out.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Scott- I take what a lot of people (QBs, coaches, talking heads) may or may not be saying with a grain of salt. Seeing how this has blown up, no one wants to be seen on the bad side of it... and a lot of media types may just be instigating for self serving purposes. If this was truly big deal to the league/refs/rules (before the press blew this story up), why did the refs simply fill the balls back up and play the 2nd half??? Apparently, they didn't contact anyone, league, coaches, about the under inflated balls, they just filled them back up, why? Because no one cared about this rule...

I agree with all of this except the QBs' reaction. Not even one ex-QB tried using 'Steve B' logic. The talk shows LOVE having opposing views from their talking heads, yet when given the opportunity, the quarterbacks didn't once take Brady's side.

Also, I was believing Brady during his press conference when he kept saying that he couldn't tell the difference during the game - that he never gave it a second thought. He should also have said that yes, he asks for 12.5, but no, he doubts he could really tell the difference, that it should be intuitive to anyone that lower pressure balls 'should' be easier to throw, so he goes for the bottom. Why the heck didn't he just say something like that?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I'll never be convinced this is a real big deal... but the media has definitely made it a perceived big deal.

Bingo!

I don't love or hate either team, but this ball deflating incident is the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. I get that it's breaking the rules...so fine them, take a draft pick away and move on...it's that easy. I don't care if Belichick or Brady had anything to do with it or not, the Pats broke the rules one way or another, so lay the hammer down and get it over with.

Even if it's a form or cheating, it's not very relevant and the guys here that are chomping at the bit to have the Patriot's heads are sad. It would be different if the haters plainly stated their case and took a side, but it just seems weak to call them names and such.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Even if it's a form or cheating, it's not very relevant...

That was pretty much your same sentiment about shilling in the Probstein thread. For some of us, any form of cheating is very relevant. But if it makes you feel better to justify it, so be it.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If people want to justify bad behavior, so be it. It kinda reminds me of the Probstein (shilling) thread.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That was pretty much your same sentiment about shilling in the Probstein thread. For some of us, any form of cheating is very relevant. But if it makes you feel better to justify it, so be it.

Not the same at all, but if you want to use it that way, knock yourself out.

So every sin is the same and should be treated the same? No difference?


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[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

So every sin is the same and should be treated the same? No difference?

In severity? No. In consequence? Yes.

Romans 6:23

Really want to continue this coversation?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

In severity? No. In consequence? Yes.



Romans 6:23



Really want to continue this coversation?

No, because you are obviously going off the deep end on the matter.

Reread my original post...punish and move on...as should you


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[Runscott]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Reread my original post...punish and move on...as should you

Sounds good, but you can't - that would require Belichek or Brady to admit they did something wrong, and they aren't doing that. So the media circus, or whatever you want to call it, is going to continue. Then when (or if) they are caught in a lie, regardless of how trivial this entire thing should be viewed (in your opinion), it's going to be an even bigger deal than if they had told the truth.

But maybe you all are right and we'll eventually find out that it was mother nature picking on the Patriot balls.

[freakhappy]

I'm sure this is getting blown up because it's the patriots and I get that....they've messed up before and it should be a bigger deal. My biggest issue is the haters that post their hatred...it's like they've been waiting for something to happen so they can excitedly jump out of their seats and point a finger at them. Believe me, they're getting punished and I can't see it being a light punishment. Robert Kraft should be embarrassed and hopefully this will be the last cheating scandal we hear from the pats.


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[Runscott]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

I'm sure this is getting blown up because it's the patriots and I get that....they've messed up before and it should be a bigger deal. My biggest issue is the haters that post their hatred...it's like they've been waiting for something to happen so they can excitedly jump out of their seats and point a finger at them. Believe me, they're getting punished and I can't see it being a light punishment. Robert Kraft should be embarrassed and hopefully this will be the last cheating scandal we hear from the pats.


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This "hater" stuff sounds like crying. As I said before, you guys love yourselves a lot more than others hate you - I don't see the Patriots as important or special at all. If you didn't get caught cheating so often, no one would notice you any more than any other good team.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Runscott

This "hater" stuff sounds like crying. As I said before, you guys love yourselves a lot more than others hate you - I don't see the Patriots as important or special at all. If you didn't get caught cheating so often, no one would notice you any more than any other good team.

This. The Patriots ruined the legacy of their early 2000s teams with Spygate. Most of us had moved on. If it wasn't for Pats fans constantly trying to minimize Spygate, this issue would have died. Now the Pats are caught cheating again. It leaves us to wonder what other rules they have been breaking for the last 15 years?

This should have been the team to redeem Belichick and Brady. However, they have shown that they can't keep their noses clean. They will forever be associated with cheating alone.

Other teams have been as successful or more so. 60s Pack, 70s Steelers, 80s 49ers and 90's Cowboys. None of those teams received the negative reaction of the Pats. It's the cheating, not the winning. The Pats success is nothing we haven't seen before. It is the utter disregard for fair play.

[FenwayFaithful]

.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rats60

Your conspiracy theory is ridiculous

It's not my "conspiracy theory", just some things I've heard which I felt deserved as much consideration as the assertions being made by the lynch mob here. I think it's ridiculous for people to form conclusions without really knowing any of the facts.

Originally Posted by rats60

How can the Pats have 11 balls be 2 psi under

11 balls being 2 psi low is not confirmed! It came from an unidentified source and was reported by Craig Mortensen. Call me crazy, but I don't consider ESPN to be a beacon of integrity, or reporting accuracy. Back in 2007, while my wife was working for a firm that was privy to the Mitchell report, grand jury testimony, info from interviews they'd conducted, etc., an ESPN reporter was offering six figures to anyone who'd leak the player lists to him. A lot of these guys are total weasels, yet it seems the public is happy to take cues from them on how to judge others' integrity.

Originally Posted by rats60

How can this have never been an issue in below zero games

Because nobody cared! Refs, players, fans NOBODY CARED!!! Do you think they really measure and keep measuring to make sure it's between 12.5-13.5?? I'd guess balls in sub zero games are probably often outside the stated league limits, especially if a QB wants his at 12.5 to start with (OMG, you mean rules are being broken, rules are being broken!! eject, eject!!).

I highly doubt most, if any of those shouting loudest could tell a 1-2 psi difference by holding a football. I also doubt most were aware of any of these rules (I wasn't because they never come up), and not aware of the freedom and flexibility football players (and their coaches) have had from age 8 all the way up to the NFL in choosing prepping their game balls and other equipment. Yet people are jumping up and down, going nuts about this story like Tom Brady killed someone, or punched his wife, or beat his kid?? I'll say for the upteenth time, balls used up until the NFL are not uniform and vary based on manufacturer and style. This is what QBs have been used to their whole lives, and to an extent this continues in the NFL, and it's been accepted for years. I can't cut a guys head off if he's always been allowed to do whatever he's done.

Take cleats for example. 0.5" is the max length at amateur levels, yet I know we'd all used 0.75" when it was raining and muddy. I know our opponents did so as well. The refs never checked and I don't think anyone felt they were cheating, because either side could do it, and the refs didn't care to enforce it. For argument sake, what if news breaks tomorrow that Ezekiel Elliot and Ohio State used 0.75" cleats in the Championship game. Maybe the ambitious reporter "breaking" this story goes out of his way to claim it gave them an unfair footing advantage. Let's then say the public, most of whom don't know players often use 0.75" cleats, jump on the Twitter bandwagon and start yelling "cheater! cheater!". I mean, Ohio State and separately Urban Meyer have had some pretty sketchy moments in their past, so they must be breaking rules, right?!?! Oregon, and other teams' players don't come out to admit they used longer cleats too, because they don't want to also be accused of cheating.. and so on.

Scott- it does surprise me a bit if truly no other QBs are coming out defending Brady. This said, I guess most just don't want to touch this with a 10 foot pole. They all saw how quickly he's been judged, so why risk the same scrutiny? I also think pro athletes are not immune to jealousy (see Terry Bradshaw late '80's when Montana was breaking his SB records, see Dolphins popping champagne when undefeated teams lose, see MLB players always voting Jeter most overrated player), and so some are probably just taking satisfaction seeing Brady squirm.

I don't find other QBs'/Teams' silence to be damning, nor do I consider the Pats team history to be damning either. Granted, Spygate was really bad, and IMO the Pats probably deserved harsher punishment (coach suspension like Payton got).. and sure, Spygate can influence your thinking, but to make the assertion- "they did that so they must have done this, and their legacy is all fake" is a stretch. The Pats are not unique in their desire to gain any edge possible. I think most NFL head coaches, chief execs possess traits that may be off-putting in the normal world (control freaks, selfish, neglectful of family/friends, etc) yet are essential to survice in the NFL. My beloved Niners, who were mentioned as being one of the great teams that didn't generate controversy like the Pats, have done their fair share of shady stuff. Eddie D, loved for his willingness to do anything for his players, was suspected to have paid players under the table shortly after the league instituted the salary cap. Seems that would be an unfair advantage to me. He was also accused of using dead people as voters while trying to pass a new stadium/mall at Candlestick Point, and eventually run from the league for involvement in a river boat casino/gambling license scandal.

Most the teams we root for have baggage. Anyone a college football fan here???? Maybe Auburn? Auburn who's alums arranged for Cecil Newton to go aboard river casinos, play machines at precise times and walk out with bags of cash? Auburn and Cam still have their trophies, and the school and SEC conference profited greatly, so I guess it's all OK, eh? The NO Saints were paying players to "attack the head" of Frank Gore and Alex Smith. Yet, the Pats have some under inflated footballs, and this is what people are clinging onto? Craziness IMO

As Mike C says, if they find evidence they're guilty of an infraction, punish them and move on. But in the grand scheme of things... and of football related violations on the whole.. this one is not that big a deal.

[itjclarke]

Wow, I've been busy writing my own novel, so didn't see yours until after.

Originally Posted by FenwayFaithful

"But what has the NFL really found? As one league source has explained it to PFT, the football intercepted by Colts linebacker D’Qwell Jackson was roughly two pounds under the 12.5 PSI minimum. The other 10 balls that reportedly were two pounds under may have been, as the source explained it, closer to one pound below 12.5 PSI."

Read that same column... my guess is no one will ever know what the other balls were because the refs don't really give a crap, and probably just topped them back up to spec. I doubt they take time to log the pressures.

Originally Posted by FenwayFaithful

So looks like Chris Mortensen's report may be wrong, just like the report about Jackson being one who noticed the ball was deflated. Sports journalism in this country is at an all-time low.

EXACTLY!! But he sure as hell did a good job creating a story and driving ratings for the foreseeable future, so am sure he'll be commended.

Originally Posted by FenwayFaithful

Funny how you mention teams that were successful and "None of those teams received the negative reaction of the Pats. It's the cheating, not the winning." Let's see here:

70's Steelers - Rampant steroid use

Broncos - Circumventing the salary cap during the late Elway years when they won 2 SBs; taping part of a 49ers walk-through practice in London in 2010

Late 90's 49ers - Circumventing the salary cap

90's Cowboys - Jimmy Johnson has admitted that videotaping coaches' signals was common practice and something he did although he felt it didn't help him at all.

Steelers - Cowher: “Stealing someone’s signals was a part of the game and everybody attempted to do that. We had people that always tried to steal signals,” said Cowher, whose 2004 team won 16 consecutive games before losing to the Patriots in the AFC title game. “What happened when we lost that game is they outplayed us. It had nothing to do with stealing signals or cheating or anything else.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-s...act-of-spygate

I could list many more things, but I think that'll do.

Yes, yes, and yes.. all examples of things teams are willing to do. I'm the first to admit the Niners did some dirty stuff.. and separately, a whole hell of a lot of coke. Fans get such a small portal into the real world of pro football, so when they get little bits and pieces (often without full context) here and there, it looks terrible. However, most involved are pulling similar tricks. Re- Spygate, I had more issue because they were filming walk throughs/practices that were supposed to be closed, right? That said, I never thought they were the only ones doing this. I had also singled the Saints out for their Bountygate.. but bounties have been around forever, and am sure many teams and coaches have done this.

Bounties to hurt players are probably a little more serious than deflated balls... or is it just me that feels this way?