Most overrated baseball superstar ever?

[cardsagain74]

My choice is Pete Rose.

Other than hitting singles and running over catchers in all-star games, he didn't really do anything well. Yes two gold gloves, but his defensive WAR numbers show him as a consistent liability in the field. Terrible base stealer (in an era when teams counted on their table setter to steal a lot of em). Even with his durability, the only reason he got near Cobb's record was the abundance of plate appearances at the top of the big red machine for all those years.

Barely hit over .300 lifetime playing in a fairly hitter-friendly park for many years.
Lifetime OPS well inferior to Gwynn and Carew, despite those guys playing on bad teams with less protection behind them.

I think that about covers it

[packs]

Reggie Jackson.

Makes me sick to see his number on the same wall as real Yankees. His legacy is baffling to me. The guy hit 563 home runs, but hung around for 5 seasons to hit 99 of them while putting up a combined 5 season WAR of 0.0. That is not a typo either.

Does he get into the HOF with 462 home runs?

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by packs

Does he get into the HOF with 462 home runs?

I'd guess he still easily would have. Add in about 12 all star appearances before your cutoff and going out of his mind over the course of five world series (especially for the Yankees).

But yeah, his career would've had a better legacy if he'd bowed out a few years earlier. Probably hung around for the salary too. Looks like actually made more money in those last 5 zero WAR years than the rest of his career combined

[Tomi]

Jeter. He is better than other HOFer's but his stature in baseball is just over hyped more than anyone else.

[philliesfan]

definitely Jeter...…..

[bnorth]

All time Mickey Mantle by a country mile.

To you fine gentlemen that said Jeter please name one player that tried harder. I am not a fan and don't own a single Jeter card. I did go to a lot of Yankee games and he seemed to try his absolute hardest on every play.

[philliesfan]

name 1 player that trier harder...………..Pete Rose.

[mcgwirecom]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Jeter. He is better than other HOFer's but his stature in baseball is just over hyped more than anyone else.

Amen brother. If he played anywhere else he would be Paul Molitor

[mcgwirecom]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

name 1 player that trier harder...………..Pete Rose.

I agree, Charlie Hustle! He willed himself to be the player he was. Was not blessed with as much skill as most HOFers but got there on his own.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by bnorth

All time Mickey Mantle by a country mile.

To you fine gentlemen that said Jeter please name one player that tried harder. I am not a fan and don't own a single Jeter card. I did go to a lot of Yankee games and he seemed to try his absolute hardest on every play.

Just go to baseballreference.com and see the amont of times Jeter led the league in any category and then Mantle. Mantle on this list is absurd by a country mile

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

name 1 player that trier harder...………..Pete Rose.

I have had that discussion with a fellow member and long time friend a few times. We always agree they both gave it all.

[Jim65]

Nolan Ryan

Originally Posted by cardsagain74

My choice is Pete Rose.

Other than hitting singles and running over catchers in all-star games, he didn't really do anything well. Yes two gold gloves, but his defensive WAR numbers show him as a consistent liability in the field. Terrible base stealer (in an era when teams counted on their table setter to steal a lot of em). Even with his durability, the only reason he got near Cobb's record was the abundance of plate appearances at the top of the big red machine for all those years.

Barely hit over .300 lifetime playing in a fairly hitter-friendly park for many years.
Lifetime OPS well inferior to Gwynn and Carew, despite those guys playing on bad teams with less protection behind them.

I think that about covers it

Not Pete Rose but "Opinions are Like Assholes Everyone has One"

[Frank A]

Originally Posted by Jim65

Nolan Ryan

I completely agree. His stats stink. Beyond over rated. I don't care how fast he could throw. I don't care that he played for some crummy teams. A lot of pitchers did and they still had great stats.
324 wins and 292 losses. Pretty close to being a 500 pitcher. I guess that would be average. 27 years in the majors.

[carlsonjok]

Going to throw out some bait: Lloyd Waner

Career WAR of 27.9 ties him for 931 on the career WAR list and is the lowest ranked HOFer in the list of top 1000 players.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by carlsonjok

Going to throw out some bait: Lloyd Waner

Career WAR of 27.9 ties him for 931 on the career WAR list and is the lowest ranked HOFer in the list of top 1000 players.

Lifetime .316 average. Not too shabby.

[EvilKing00]

Jeter , way over hyped. no power, no speed - he stayed healthy and accumulated a lot of hits. yea hes a hof but boy, hes very over rated

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

Reggie Jackson.

Makes me sick to see his number on the same wall as real Yankees. His legacy is baffling to me. The guy hit 563 home runs, but hung around for 5 seasons to hit 99 of them while putting up a combined 5 season WAR of 0.0. That is not a typo either.

Does he get into the HOF with 462 home runs?

5 rings got Catfish Hunter into the Hof without counting stats. Reggie Jackson would have made it easy with a MVP, 2 WS MVP and 5 rings.

[ClementeFanOh]

I've got one current and a couple 30+ year old mentions, as I've watched them play and still can't figure out whey people think they are good or "great":

1) Bryce Harper- I'll never get it. He's laughing all the way to the bank.

2) Bobby Bonilla, Strawberry, Dykstra, et al- nope, not that good.

3) Ozzie Smith- he turned flips on the field and batted .260. Seems like a nice guy though.

There are people who are/were fans of course, but that's my group.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

1) Bryce Harper- I'll never get it. He's laughing all the way to the bank.

He turned 1 spectacular year into a $300M contract. Good player but definitely the most overrated active player.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by bnorth

All time Mickey Mantle by a country mile.

To you fine gentlemen that said Jeter please name one player that tried harder. I am not a fan and don't own a single Jeter card. I did go to a lot of Yankee games and he seemed to try his absolute hardest on every play.

LOL on both points. Mantle is 7th all-time in OPS+. I'm sorry, but when the names on an all-time list for league adjusted one base plus power are Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Trout and Hornsby, how, exactly, are you overrated?

And Jeter "tried harder"?

This is a joke post, right? Jeter is tied for 60th in career WAR, yet he's tenth in career plate appearances. A 5+ WAR is considered All Star level. In 18 seasons of at least 119 games (and more than 145 in all but two of those), he had a 5+ WAR 6 times. 6 all-star seasons in 18.

He was a singles hitter that hit accidentally hit an occasional extra base hit, and played subpar defense. He's in the Hall because he hit for average, played longer than Jesus was on the Earth, and was Captain of the Yankees.

If we're talking about Reggie sticking around too long to pad his stats, Jeter is guilty of the same. His last five seasons, he was a below average offensive player. This is 2010-2014. At the end of the 2009 season, he had 2,747 hits. His last five seasons, when he amassed 718 hits, his OPS+ was 94. 6 points below league average. Only a decent 2012 season saves that last five from being a complete dumpster fire. 2010-2014 he was worth a combined 3.8 bWAR. The New York Yankees paid Derek Jeter $82,239,364 to be worth, on average, about 0.7 WAR per season.

He was terrible. They paid him $21,641,947 per win above replacement.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I completely agree. His stats stink. Beyond over rated. I don't care how fast he could throw. I don't care that he played for some crummy teams. A lot of pitchers did and they still had great stats.
324 wins and 292 losses. Pretty close to being a 500 pitcher. I guess that would be average. 27 years in the majors.

I would agree that Ryan's a bit overrated-he walked too many batters for my taste.

But please tell me that you're not using win-loss record as the basis for your comment. Nolan Ryan was, objectively, the best pitcher in the National League in 1987. Led the NL in ERA (2.76), ERA+ (142) and FIP (2.47). He struck out a league-leading 270 batters at age 40, finished 5th in the Cy Young, and finished with an 8-16 record.

He probably should have won the Cy Young. FIP shows he was the best pitcher at controlling the things only a pitcher can directly determine themselves. He outpitched teammate Mike Scott across the board, and Scott was 16-13. If Ryan had finished with that record, he wins the award. Steve Bedrosian ended up winning it with 40 saves. Rick Sutcliff, Rick Reuschel and Orel Hershiser finished ahead of him, and Dwight Gooden tied him. He outpitched them all.

By your logic, Ryan was below average because he had a .333 winning percentage.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Jim65

He turned 1 spectacular year into a $300M contract. Good player but definitely the most overrated active player.

Since his MVP 2015 season, Harper's 162 game averages 2016-2019:

.265 AVG, 107 runs, 34 doubles, 34 home runs, 109 RBI, 114 walks, 159 K, .386 OBP/.507 SLG/.893 OPS, 131 OPS+.

Baseball Reference lists the following similar batters through age 26:

1. Andruw Jones
2. Justin Upton
3. Ken Griffey Jr
4. Eddie Mathews
5. Jose Canseco
6. Mike Trout
7. Ruben Sierra
8. Miguel Cabrera
9. Frank Robinson
10. Manny Machado

Three Hall of Famers, and two locks for Cooperstown. I understand that subconsciously, a lot of people don't like him. But a 27 year old guy that hits 35 home runs a year, walks well over 100 times, outproduces the league by 30+ percent, and has a ridiculous ceiling....I'd take that any day of the week.

[carlsonjok]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Since his MVP 2015 season, Harper's 162 game averages 2016-2019:

.265 AVG, 107 runs, 34 doubles, 34 home runs, 109 RBI, 114 walks, 159 K, .386 OBP/.507 SLG/.893 OPS, 131 OPS+.


....I'd take that any day of the week.

Counterpoint:

Looking at Baseball Reference, between 2013 and 2019, Harper accumulated 26.6 Wins Above Replacement (WAR) for an average season of 3.80 WAR. Over the same period, Brett Gardner accumulated 27.0 WAR for an average season of 3.86.

So, the operative question isn't whether you'll take that level of production any day of the week. Rather, are you willing to pay twice as much for it?

[ClementeFanOh]

Bill- the term "overrated" combines things players can and cannot control. It doesn't matter if I "like" Bryce Harper or not, the fact is his former team won the Series the very year after he left- if that's not a "hello" fact, I don't know what is... Although I admit I don't follow him closely, I'd bet old Bryce is a "master of the meaningless homerun" as well ( a la Adam Dunn, who was good for hitting dingers when his team was up by 8 or down by 8). The combo of press+talent+ his ego should translate to Harper setting the world on fire- and a 265 average isn't doing it. He is the very definition of overrated- he's paid way too much and produces too little, while his teams wallow.

[brewing]

I agree on Jeter, Ryan, and Rose. I'll add Banks and Koufax.

Not great but an easy way to ID players that accumulated WAR or counting stats based on playing well past their expiration or useful date.
Take Games played divided by WAR for hitters and IP divided by WAR for pitchers.


Jeter 38.53 Games per WAR
Rose 44.69 Games per WAR
Banks 37.29 Games per WAR
Point of reference Ruth 15.44 Not counting his pitching WAR, therefore lower is clearly better.

2 guys that don't get nearly the same press.
Eddie Mathews 24.85 Games per WAR
Rod Carew 30.37 Games per WAR


Koufax 43.77 IP per WAR
Ryan 64.43 IP per WAR
Point of reference Walter Johnson 38.93.

1 guy that doesn't get enough press.
Pedro Martinez 32.83 IP per WAR

If you don't like WAR, the guys I mentioned have the counting stats.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

3) Ozzie Smith- he turned flips on the field and batted .260. Seems like a nice guy though.

But if you go by the defensive WAR numbers, Ozzie's defense was every bit as good (and valuable) as his reputation. He was the best infielder in the history of the game, and by a big margin.

It has me envision that old Bugs Bunny baseball cartoon. "First base Ozzie Smith, second base Ozzie Smith, shortstop Ozzie Smith....."

[ClementeFanOh]

Hi John- yes, Ozzie was a wonderful one-dimensional player (okay, I'll give another 1/2 dimension for being a steady but not monstrous stolen base guy). I actually "like" him, but again the term "overrated" is key. Why isn't Dave Concepcion in the Hall, by the way? Eerily similar offensive stats, same position, GREAT defensive player, led the 76 Reds in Game Winnings RBIs, similar tenure in MLB, on 2 WS winners. Concepcion is a wonderful player who is not "overrated". And don't get me started on Phil Rizzuto being in the Hall...

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by brewing

1 guy that doesn't get enough press.
Pedro Martinez 32.83 IP per WAR

In his prime, I've always thought that Pedro was the best pitcher to ever lace 'em up.

Naturally the lack of career bulk really hurts his legacy (with how so many people focus mostly on that side of someone's numbers), but it makes me roll my eyes when those "greatest of all time" lists assume that the stone age pitchers were the best to every play.

You'd think it'd be beyond obvious that the game wasn't nearly the same back then when Young and Johnson started five games per week

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Hi John- yes, Ozzie was a wonderful one-dimensional player (okay, I'll give another 1/2 dimension for being a steady but not monstrous stolen base guy). I actually "like" him, but again the term "overrated" is key. Why isn't Dave Concepcion in the Hall, by the way? Eerily similar offensive stats, same position, GREAT defensive player, led the 76 Reds in Game Winnings RBIs, similar tenure in MLB, on 2 WS winners. Concepcion is a wonderful player who is not "overrated". And don't get me started on Phil Rizzuto being in the Hall...

Ozzie's lifetime overall WAR was almost double Concepcion's (which includes his offensive production also being more valuable). He had a lot better plate discipline and stole almost twice as many bases.

Defensively, Concepcion was exceptional. But he can't compare to Ozzie's numbers there either. Then again, no one can!

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Hi John- yes, Ozzie was a wonderful one-dimensional player (okay, I'll give another 1/2 dimension for being a steady but not monstrous stolen base guy). I actually "like" him, but again the term "overrated" is key. Why isn't Dave Concepcion in the Hall, by the way? Eerily similar offensive stats, same position, GREAT defensive player, led the 76 Reds in Game Winnings RBIs, similar tenure in MLB, on 2 WS winners. Concepcion is a wonderful player who is not "overrated". And don't get me started on Phil Rizzuto being in the Hall...

I consider 580 career stolen bases monstrous. Sure Ozzie didn’t have power and that hurts his OPS. But he was a VERY good hitter for a 5+ year period and finished with 2,460 hits. He got on base. And one of the best defensive players ever. My dad used to say “hit it to Ozzie” when they were in a tough spot. Invariably they would and he would bail them out of a tough situation. Long live the Wizard!

[ClementeFanOh]

Ozzie defenders- gents, he's a HOF player, I didn't say he was a scrub. The bar is "overrated", so when some of the other contributors stole a couple of my picks, I went to Ozzie. (I couldn't name Rizzuto because I didn't see him play, but boy oh boy...)

[ClementeFanOh]

Holy cow- I just looked at your user names. NOW I know why you are defending Ozzie, you're StL fans! I win by default

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Holy cow- I just looked at your user names. NOW I know why you are defending Ozzie, you're StL fans! I win by default

My "cards" refers just to sportscards. I have no Stl basis.

But speaking of, I also assumed that your OH was Ohio (thus Concepcion)

[steve B]

Originally Posted by brewing

If you don't like WAR, the guys I mentioned have the counting stats.

Saying that right after talking about accumulated WAR.. it IS a counting stat.

[sycks22]

I know he's not a top tier guy, but Rock Raines making the Hall is a joke. He was good at 1 stat (stealing bags), if that's all you have to do why isn't Kenny Lofton in the hall? He never even had 200 hits in a season even though he had over 700 plate appearances 4x's. He wasn't even a top 20 in MVP voting his last 10 years along with no all-star appearances. 2600 hits to boot. I'll never get it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sycks22

I know he's not a top tier guy, but Rock Raines making the Hall is a joke. He was good at 1 stat (stealing bags), if that's all you have to do why isn't Kenny Lofton in the hall? He never even had 200 hits in a season even though he had over 700 plate appearances 4x's. He wasn't even a top 20 in MVP voting his last 10 years along with no all-star appearances. 2600 hits to boot. I'll never get it.

They let in 2160 career hit Larry Walker last year. In his amazing career he got 200 hits once. It has become the Hall of OK let him in.

[Wrightfan85]

I was going to go with Ryan because of the walks but I completely forgot the insane lack of contact hitters got off him. He averaged 6.6 hits per nine innings for 27 YEARS! :O

For me it might be Jack Morris. 3.90 ERA, under 2500 K's, 200+ wild pitches among other things. He really only has the wins plus Game 7 of the 1991 World Series. Sure, Maz is mostly remembered for his dramatic homer off the Yanks but he was an elite defender and more defensive guys need to be in (coughBOB GRICHcough)

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Wrightfan85

For me it might be Jack Morris. 3.90 ERA, under 2500 K's, 200+ wild pitches among other things. He really only has the wins plus Game 7 of the 1991 World Series. Sure, Maz is mostly remembered for his dramatic homer off the Yanks but he was an elite defender and more defensive guys need to be in (coughBOB GRICHcough)

I'm a Tiger fan and I'd agree that his HoF credentials are questionable at best. I can't ever remember him being referred anywhere close to superstar status though.

[cardsagain74]

Nolan Ryan would easily be second on my list.

One thing I've never seen mentioned is how pitcher-friendly the Astrodome was in the '80s. The home/road splits are night and day. Look at Mike Scott's as well. Both of those guys had the numbers of a #3 or #4 in the rotation national league starter on the road.

Ryan/strikeouts and Rose/base hits. Shiny things that they hung around long enough to do more of than anyone else. Quantity well over quality.

As far as the hobby goes, Ryan is my clear cut #1 for overrated sportscard lore.

[Touch'EmAll]

The career overall stats may not be as impressive as other top pitchers, but Ryan could do things that nobody else could. Ryan had the most awe inspiring Wow factor of any pitcher ever - he still holds Guiness Book Records for fastest pitch, he threw more no-hitters than anyone...ever...in the entire history of the sport. You don't have a "nothing to average" pitcher come out and toss 7 no-hitters...and how many 1-hitters? Could you imaging Ryan pitching in Dodger Stadium in the mid-1960's with the higher pitchers mound like Koufax had?
Sorry some of you feel the way you do about Ryan.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

The career overall stats may not be as impressive as other top pitchers, but Ryan could do things that nobody else could. Ryan had the most awe inspiring Wow factor of any pitcher ever - he still holds Guiness Book Records for fastest pitch, he threw more no-hitters than anyone...ever...in the entire history of the sport. You don't have a "nothing to average" pitcher come out and toss 7 no-hitters...and how many 1-hitters? Could you imaging Ryan pitching in Dodger Stadium in the mid-1960's with the higher pitchers mound like Koufax had?
Sorry some of you feel the way you do about Ryan.

Yes he was all those things. Doesn't change the fact that he would've had around a league-average ERA overall for his career if he hadn't pitched in Houston throughout the '80s.

He was one of a kind, awe-inspiring, and insanely difficult to hit a baseball off of. But none of that translated into being highly effective throughout his career.

[Mike D.]

Nolan Ryan’s ERA+ was higher during his time with the Angels and Rangers than it was in his time with the Astros.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by Tomi

Lifetime .316 average. Not too shabby.

I wonder what the league average was for career. His career OPS was 99.

[Touch'EmAll]

Ryan was effective enough to notch well over 300 wins on poor/avg. teams. Put him on pennant winners and he could have come close to 400 wins. He has 51 MLB records (some of which will never be broken), earn 1st year ballot HOF with 98.8%. Yeah, his walks were the downfall which led to higher ERA, but when you pitch an astronomical amount of pitches kinda comes with the territory. Similar to blasting Cy Young for most losses, or hammering Pujols Ripken and Hank Aaron for tops on the list for most Double Plays hit into. Ryan was quite effective.

[Mike D.]

Originally Posted by bnorth

They let in 2160 career hit Larry Walker last year. In his amazing career he got 200 hits once. It has become the Hall of OK let him in.

The average WAR of a Hall of Fame electee is actually trending up, especially over the last 20 years.

I mean, when was the last time we had a really terrible BBWAA electee? Other than Baines and maybe Morris, even the vets have been solid.

On original topic - I agree on Jackson and Rose.

No Hall of Famer, but Joe Carter and his RBI’s is a classic example.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Ryan was effective enough to notch well over 300 wins on poor/avg. teams. Put him on pennant winners and he could have come close to 400 wins. He has 51 MLB records (some of which will never be broken), earn 1st year ballot HOF with 98.8%. Yeah, his walks were the downfall which led to higher ERA, but when you pitch an astronomical amount of pitches kinda comes with the territory. Similar to blasting Cy Young for most losses, or hammering Pujols Ripken and Hank Aaron for tops on the list for most Double Plays hit into. Ryan was quite effective.

Ryan was great at what he did, strikeouts and having dominant enough stuff to produce 7 no hitters. I will never argue he wasn't good or shouldn't be in the HOF, but some fans think he's a Top 5 or 10 pitcher of all time and, IMO he's not close to that. Thats why I think he's overrated.

[stlcardsfan]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Holy cow- I just looked at your user names. NOW I know why you are defending Ozzie, you're StL fans! I win by default

John may not be guilty but I will admit I am! This is a great thread, I enjoy it.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

LOL on both points. Mantle is 7th all-time in OPS+. I'm sorry, but when the names on an all-time list for league adjusted one base plus power are Ruth, Williams, Bonds, Gehrig, Trout and Hornsby, how, exactly, are you overrated?
.

OPS+ is a worthless stat to compare different players from different eras. No one is taking .298/.421/.557/.977 over .325/.398/.579/.977. It also doesn't adjust for park even though it claims to. Proof that Mantle is overrated. He might be top 20-25, but no where close to 7th.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by rats60

OPS+ is a worthless stat to compare different players from different eras. No one is taking .298/.421/.557/.977 over .325/.398/.579/.977. It also doesn't adjust for park even though it claims to. Proof that Mantle is overrated. He might be top 20-25, but no where close to 7th.

"Might be top 20-25"......?

Mantle's lifetime road OPS was .958. His WAR/season is also top 10 caliber.

I understand people thinking he's a little overrated (though I don't agree), but this is taking it way too far.