Colgans Proof Cards

[DixieBaseball]

Was wondering if anyone is aware of any different Minor Leaguers in the "Colgans Proof" Set other than these teams : Buffalo, Rochester (Eastern League), Milwaukee, Louisville (American Assoc), and Memphis (South Assoc)? Reason I ask, is since we don't know for sure who the issuer is for the Square Colgan look alike cards, perhaps the Minor Leaguers would give us a clue!? I find it odd that there is only one Southern Team in the set and a few Memphis players (Daubert, Baerworld. & Babb) but no other Southern Association teams!? Are there Minor Leagues absent that would seem should be included? Does this Square set overlap the Colgans set ? If so, where are the other Minor league teams from the SA, EL, and AA ??

Just really curious about any theories out there, and obviously no advertising has been found yet, but I have to wonder if this was some local knock off / competitor on a smaller scale who tried to "copy" the Colgans to some degree.

Any thoughts, input would be welcome. A mystery set for sure... Could Autosales (New York) be who put out the Square Colgan Proofs?!?

[Leon]

I am not persuaded, at this point, to call them Colgans proofs. I think, maybe, more like an unfinished product. Or, even a finished one but not sure why they are considered proofs? As for the player and league selection, sorry, never really studied it so can't help. I know we have some Colgan's collectors on the forum and maybe they will know more.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I don't know much about these either, but have never considered them Colgan's Chip proofs. REA currently has a lot of 76 of them with 25 uncatalogued players.

No new minor leaguers other than the teams you mentioned though.

[Tom S.]

Here's a possible explanation that I've got about them which ties into your Autosales theory...

One of the products that Autosales Gum put out was Dentyne. I found a picture of some wrappers that are for sale on eBay which the seller dates to the 1920's.



Those "Colgans proofs" sure look like they would fit inside those wrappers, don't they?

Since they have no advertising on the back, it's hard to know if they were actually inserted into any sort of packaging, or if they were merely proofs of some sort based solely on their limited overall numbers.

It would be nice to be able to find any type of period Dentyne advertising to see if they mention these at all.

[Leon]

Those are neat. Hopefully we will find the missing link...

Originally Posted by Tom S.

Here's a possible explanation that I've got about them which ties into your Autosales theory...

One of the products that Autosales Gum put out was Dentyne. I found a picture of some wrappers that are for sale on eBay which the seller dates to the 1920's.



Those "Colgans proofs" sure look like they would fit inside those wrappers, don't they?

Since they have no advertising on the back, it's hard to know if they were actually inserted into any sort of packaging, or if they were merely proofs of some sort based solely on their limited overall numbers.

It would be nice to be able to find any type of period Dentyne advertising to see if they mention these at all.

[brianp-beme]

Trying to put some pieces together. It seems possible for Autosales Gum to have distributed these Colgan's Chips related ('proof') cards. First off the tin on the left that Jerome posted indicates that Autosales Gum was the successor to the Colgan's Co, and checking on the internet it appears that they purchased Colgan's at the tail end of 1914.

It would be interesting to know what size those Dentyne wrappers that Tom shared are, especially the dimensions between the 'crease lines' of the wrapper. The 'Square Proof' cards are approximately 1-3/8" x 1-3/4". Looking at the scan, it appears that the dimensions would be proportionally correct for the cards to have been packaged in these wrappers, if of course the sizing matched up.

If Autosales were the distributor of these 'Square Colgan's' cards, the earliest date of distribution would have to be 1915. With this new subject bonanza seen in the REA auction, perhaps it would be interesting to research all the known subjects of this set and see if they were perhaps chosen for inclusion because they were either still active, or if not, perhaps the inactive players were still popular among fans. Without checking, it does appear that the team designations are the same as seen in the regular Colgan's issue, which might make a later (1915 or later) issue date less likely.

Perhaps something for me to do in my spare tire time. If nothing else, the checklist for this set definitely needs a good old-fashioned update.

Brian

[rhettyeakley]

There has never been any actual proof that these items were actually distributed by Colgan’s. The maker obviously used colgan’s chips in their production (hence the same photo and the rounded base of the portrait.) they simply cut away the background of the card that has the player name and team on it and then listed them below the image.

It is very likely that some other company or outfit simply pirated the colgan’s chips into their own set and distributed them with some sort of product. I would actually be surprised if Colgans made them at all as I have not seen any Colgans product that would fit them.

Remember on the back of every E254 card it states “beware of imitations”

[Steve L]

I've always liked the idea (not mine) that an advertising board existed on which the squares were attached in the store or at home. Find the board and you might know more about the square card.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I don't know much about these either, but have never considered them Colgan's Chip proofs. REA currently has a lot of 76 of them with 25 uncatalogued players.

No new minor leaguers other than the teams you mentioned though.

I was just wondering if anyone won the REA lot. I would be very interested in the Bugs Raymond.

Thanks!

Chris

[h2oya311]

I certainly have a hard time imagining that these were issued in 1909 as they are often described. Calling the Hooper his "rookie" card is a travesty.

What's interesting (at least to me) is that the 1909-11 E254 Colgan's Chips discs had two variations of Hooper. One version has him listed as playing for Boston Nationals ("error") and another with him on the Boston Am. League ("corrected"). Only the correct version appeared in the two REA lots that included a "square proof" Hooper.

I suppose this at least somewhat supports the theory that they "proofs" were issued after the chips.

[Leon]

I don't like the incorrect term of "proof" being used for them when they are clearly not proofs. It reminds me of the "hand cut" designation on cards that are not at all hand cut. It would be nice if a TPG actually made sense with what they do with these cards, and others, that are perpetually identified incorrectly.
Here is the E254-2 from my first collection which I no longer own...

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

There has never been any actual proof that these items were actually distributed by Colgan’s. The maker obviously used colgan’s chips in their production (hence the same photo and the rounded base of the portrait.) they simply cut away the background of the card that has the player name and team on it and then listed them below the image.

It is very likely that some other company or outfit simply pirated the colgan’s chips into their own set and distributed them with some sort of product. I would actually be surprised if Colgans made them at all as I have not seen any Colgans product that would fit them.

Remember on the back of every E254 card it states “beware of imitations”

[autograf]

If anyone won the lot, I'd also be interested...........in any Louisville dupes. I know there was a Peitz dupe.

[1880nonsports]

There has never been any actual proof that these items were actually distributed by Colgan’s. The maker obviously used colgan’s chips in their production (hence the same photo and the rounded base of the portrait.) they simply cut away the background of the card that has the player name and team on it and then listed them below the image.

It is very likely that some other company or outfit simply pirated the colgan’s chips into their own set and distributed them with some sort of product. I would actually be surprised if Colgans made them at all as I have not seen any Colgans product that would fit them.

Remember on the back of every E254 card it states “beware of imitations”
__________________

I ALWAYS agree with anything Rhett says. I feel badly for him :-) These are just another case of a second company using the images made available by a contemporary lithographer. As for the beware of imitations I think it is referencing the actual product. Just conjecture but reasoned....

[spec]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

I certainly have a hard time imagining that these were issued in 1909 as they are often described. Calling the Hooper his "rookie" card is a travesty.

What's interesting (at least to me) is that the 1909-11 E254 Colgan's Chips discs had two variations of Hooper. One version has him listed as playing for Boston Nationals ("error") and another with him on the Boston Am. League ("corrected"). Only the correct version appeared in the two REA lots that included a "square proof" Hooper.

I suppose this at least somewhat supports the theory that they "proofs" were issued after the chips.

Since my John Knight lists his team as Washington, the "square proofs" cannot be a 1909 issue. He only played one year with the Senators, so 1912 is the earliest and most likely year of issue.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

There has never been any actual proof that these items were actually distributed by Colgan’s. The maker obviously used colgan’s chips in their production (hence the same photo and the rounded base of the portrait.) they simply cut away the background of the card that has the player name and team on it and then listed them below the image.

It is very likely that some other company or outfit simply pirated the colgan’s chips into their own set and distributed them with some sort of product. I would actually be surprised if Colgans made them at all as I have not seen any Colgans product that would fit them.

Remember on the back of every E254 card it states “beware of imitations”
__________________

I ALWAYS agree with anything Rhett says. I feel badly for him :-) These are just another case of a second company using the images made available by a contemporary lithographer. As for the beware of imitations I think it is referencing the actual product. Just conjecture but reasoned....

LOL, you should probably get checked out as it probably isn't wise to agree with me too often!

I added the part about imitations as a bit of a joke as I agree they were referencing the actual product and not the worthless pictures of ballplayers they added in the packs!

In reality Colgan's was involved in a few documented cases of other companies imitating their products including the Texas Gum Co. (maker of Mello-Mint cards) when they came out with their "Peerless Chips" Here is a group that had one of the Peerles tins...
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...tion-532080822

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by spec

Since my John Knight lists his team as Washington, the "square proofs" cannot be a 1909 issue. He only played one year with the Senators, so 1912 is the earliest and most likely year of issue.

That would certainly pin things down to 1912 be the likely year of issue, as he was traded to Washington in mid February of 1912, and traded to New Jersey by the end of June 1912.

Brian

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

That would certainly pin things down to 1912 be the likely year of issue, as he was traded to Washington in mid February of 1912, and traded to New Jersey by the end of June 1912.

Brian

It couldn't solely be 1912 because Bugs Raymond was out of baseball by then and, in fact, died in 1912. Just looking at a few random others, Bob Spade last played for Cincy in 1910. Same with Purtell with the White Sox. Lafitte was only with Rochester in 1910 and Getz last played with Boston in 1910. Same with Babb in Memphis (1910).

[h2oya311]

Are there any examples in this "imitation" set of Joe McCarthy (Toledo) as there are in the original Colgan's Chips set?

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

It couldn't solely be 1912 because Bugs Raymond was out of baseball by then and, in fact, died in 1912. Just looking at a few random others, Bob Spade last played for Cincy in 1910. Same with Purtell with the White Sox. Lafitte was only with Rochester in 1910 and Getz last played with Boston in 1910. Same with Babb in Memphis (1910).

Good to know about all these examples of players in the set more associated with 1910, but they all could be the result of laziness of whoever produced them, whereas the John Knight is an example of the producers being on top of things...perhaps the guy in charge was a John Knight fan.

I feel that because these Square 'Colgan's' are so relatively scarce, that it makes most sense that they were only issued one year. Right now I can't think of a multiple year issue that is as scarce as these cards are.

Brian

[Tom S.]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

It would be interesting to know what size those Dentyne wrappers that Tom shared are, especially the dimensions between the 'crease lines' of the wrapper. The 'Square Proof' cards are approximately 1-3/8" x 1-3/4". Looking at the scan, it appears that the dimensions would be proportionally correct for the cards to have been packaged in these wrappers, if of course the sizing matched up.

I messaged the eBay seller about the dimensions of the Dentyne wrappers. He replied that they are 66mm long by 31mm wide.

By applying those dimensions to the wrapper picture, the width of the area between the crease lines is approximately 26mm. The width of my Colgan's proof card is 35mm, so it seems like the wrappers are a little too small to have contained these proof cards.

I found related pictures of a sold item on eBay that would appear to confirm this (along with Leon's quarter ):

[autograf]

Colgan's / Kis-Me Gum issued these Civil War 'Confederate Portraits'. 141 'cards' that are similar in size to the Colgan's proofs.

[DixieBaseball]

Jake Daubert played only for Memphis in 1909. His "Colgan" Square shows him with Memphis. Again, something of note is there is Only 1 Southern Association Team presented within this grouping. Memphis. Charles Babb played for Memphis from 1906-1910. He is also featured on a Square.

I think if we studied the actual teams represented as well as leagues there might be some pattern. I suppose it's possible this grouping is not complete. There could be more added over time, or possibly these were proofs, and many didn't make it. It just seems so odd for there to only be 1 Southern Association team when there were many more from 1909-1910 era. (Atlanta, Nashville, Birmingham, etc...)