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#1
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Posted By: Shawn
I picked this up recently and think its quite remarkable! I wanted to get every ones opinion on what game you think it is? Another item came with this diagram that I think gives the answer, but I wanted to get an unbiased opinion before I post scans of it. The water mark on the top left corner states "Congress E. Smith". |
#2
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Posted By: barrysloate
Shawn- this is a really interesting piece, and the names need to be looked up. The Massachusetts style of baseball used stakes in lieu of bases, and this looks to be around 1850-1860. I will do a little research later this evening. |
#3
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Posted By: davidcycleback
Baseball by name defines itself as being played with bases. Though base might be an ambiguous term (can a stake be considered a base, as in the player is based at the stake)? By modern baseball terminology, a stake would not be considered a base-- it would be considered a stake. |
#4
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Posted By: Rob L
Very cool piece. That looks to be a townball game which of course is related to the Mass. game, rounders, etc. |
#5
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Posted By: Shawn
Perhaps David... But, if the word "base" refers to a "safe place" rather than an actual thing ie: a plate or a cushioned square etc. than perhaps "base ball" could be the name? "Our home is our base" |
#6
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Posted By: davidcycleback
Shawn, we had the same thoughts on the meaning of base ("Can a stake be a base? Perhaps"), which is why I revised after the thought. Though I get full credit for the vampire theory. |
#7
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Posted By: Shawn
I think i agree with you on the Vampire theory! |
#8
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Posted By: barrysloate
"Man at the Club" is a strange name for a batter. I've never heard that term used before. |
#9
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Posted By: barrysloate
I am also not feeling 100% certain that it is baseball. It does looks like it, but the extra stake as well as the term I cited suggests the possibility of some bat and ball variant. |
#10
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Posted By: davidcycleback
You might discover its the blue print for someone's sewer pipes. |
#11
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Posted By: Shawn
Yeah... I think the phrase "Man at the club" is quite interesting. I think we should start using that phrase in baseball! |
#12
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Posted By: Shawn
Ha! It could ba an early diagram for a septic system! |
#13
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Posted By: barrysloate
In his book "Baseball Before We Knew It", David Block cites an early game called "club-ball." This game is most closely related to cricket, and there was no mention of an extra stake. So that isn't it. |
#14
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Posted By: davidcycleback
Club, as in club house, might be the equivalent of home. |
#15
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Posted By: Anonymous
I was one of the under bidders on this item so I have some idea what the "icing" may be, In any event I beleive that this is a townball/rounders varient. Below I have posted to contemporary diagrams which seem to show a similar game. The first is for a game titled rounders and is from "The Encyclopidea of Rural Sports" (1874). The second is for a game titled townball or rounders and is from the "American Boy's Book" (1864). |
#16
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Posted By: Shawn
First, I apologize for the huge scans, but I thought every one would like to read the "Rules and Regulations" and it was the only way to make them clear. |
#17
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Posted By: barrysloate
Whether you want to call this an early form of baseball, or some bat and ball variant, it clearly shares some of the rules of baseball, and is certainly an historically interesting piece. |
#18
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Posted By: Shawn
Thanks Barry, |
#19
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Posted By: barrysloate
Shawn- there was a time when I was an active collector of this early material, and I used the following criteria to determine a piece's significance: |
#20
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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm
I love old pieces like this. If it's not prying too much, where did you find such a unique item? |
#21
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Posted By: Anonymous
Barry, |
#22
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Posted By: barrysloate
Yes, it does help its case, but the diagram is clearly not baseball. Although the game has gone through countless changes over the years, it never existed with five bases. |
#23
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Posted By: barrysloate
Shawn- I just went on ebay and saw what you paid for it- it was a steal. You got a fantastic deal. |
#24
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Posted By: Shawn
Thanks Barry, I was a little nervous as I could not figure out exactly what I was buying. Its difficult to find anything on this format, although I am finding references to "five Stakes" and even "five bases plus a home plate". |
#25
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Posted By: Steve Murray
I'm going to have to expand my search parameters. |
#26
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Posted By: ramram
I was the runner-up on this interesting item. I'd call it a variation of Rounders and the Massachusetts game. It was determined to definitely be from around 1863 as the seller had an autograph album that contained all of those same men (BTW, that's not the future president Taft) signed into it with multiple 1863 dates (Shawn - she was suppose to send a copy of the pages from the autograph album with the item - you might ask her for it so that it's not lost to history). Had this item been from the 1840's or early 1850's I would have bid much higher as I would consider that a period when base ball was still finding its future path. Since it was from around 1863, it was more like the Neaderthals species - split apart and fading fast. Bottom line though, it's a great piece and a fair price. |
#27
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Posted By: Jodi Birkholm
My Taft comment was yet another failed attempt at humor. |
#28
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Posted By: ramram
Sorry Jodi, didn't look far enough to the right to see your |
#29
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Posted By: Shawn
Thank you Rob for the info. |
#30
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Posted By: Shawn
I also found this notation on the retrosheet site. Pittsfield is about 25 miles north of New Marlboro... |
#31
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Posted By: ramram
I'd actually suspect that the item is from within plus or minus a year or two of the 1863 date, but that's certainly arguable. |
#32
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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman
Could the seal be related to Edward Henry Smith, who was a U.S. Representative from New York elected as a Democrat to the 37th Congress (March 4, 1861-March 3, 1863)? |
#33
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Posted By: Shawn
Thats interesting Jimmy, I will dive in and see what I can find. |
#34
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Posted By: Shawn
I went ahead and picked up this home-made autograph album that came from the same school (South Berkshire Institute) that the diagram came from. The album belonged to Carrington Phelps and appears to be from 1863. All four signatures that are on the Base Ball Rules and Regulations are also in the album. The signature of W. L. Camp is quite elaborate and makes me wonder is he is the one who drew up the rules and diagram. I thought this may add to the validity of the whole thing? There are 46 signatures in the booklet! Needless to say, I have quite a bit of research to do now... |
#35
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Posted By: Jamie
Absolutely incredible. Thank you for sharing this piece. |
#36
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Posted By: Tom Boblitt
........ |
#37
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Posted By: Shawn
I am curious about the first rule #1 the "throwing of the bat"... Does anyone understand how that worked? |
#38
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Posted By: Shawn
After searching for sometime, I have finally found some pictures of the South Berkshire Institute. Thanks to the New Marlboro Historical Society. I thought some of you would like to see them. Also, a copy of the diagram and rules are going to be displayed in an exhibit commemorating the 250th anniversary of the town of New Marlboro, Ma.!! |
#39
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I have been going through some of my stuff recently and just realized that I never posted the articles that were written in the local monthly New Marlborough 5 News journal in reference to the 1860s Base Ball rules & diagram. Thought everyone would enjoy the read so I am listing them now. First one is the April 2009 issue and the second is the May 2009 issue. The April issue has an article written by the local historian Jon Swan and a second article written by Richard Hershberger, a well known baseball historian. The May issue has a follow-up article written by Jon Swan pertaining to the Autographed Album from the South Berkshire Institute that ties all the pieces together.
A side note: Richard Hershberger wrote a more extensive article in the Spring 2010 issue of Base Ball -A Journal of the Early Game- Special thanks to Jon & Richard for all the time, effort and exceptional work. Shawn ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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